Author Topic: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:  (Read 17755 times)

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Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2012, 01:43:51 PM »


How's that Yellowstone thing going?

Trip, unlike your last extended appearance here, I'm not going to waste a lot of explanation on your deaf ears as to why your legalistic-sounding BS is still total BS, but it's obvious to anyone who is a real lawyer that it's still total BS.

This is not personal. This is not even a matter of law. I'm not even arguing legalisms.  And even in my "last extended appearance" you didn't respond to my argument in any manner, but rather got personal then too. (Is that all you got?)  And this does not have a thing to do with Yellowstone, but if you're going to try and pull credentials, I'm sure my being a professional geologist and geophysicist should carry some weight at least in that regard.

I can honestly understand why you'd react to this with such an emotional (and personal) response. 

Some years ago I had the same l emotional response when I first heard that "natural born citizen" involves consideration of the parents' allegiance upon birth, in addition to birth on American soil.  At that time, I deeply resented the authority stating such; he was wasting my damn time  with what I considered utter bull****, and was doing nothing but mudding the water as to the truth.   However, after some time, I paused to consider my own emotional response, and wonder why it was so deeply personal.  At that point I actually went and did extensive research on the issue over years, and found out I had been profoundly wrong and thoroughly ignorant on even the most fundamental facts of the issue, its history and even citizenship itself.  I've discovered that even a such a fundamental term as "naturalized" is poorly understood by contemporary society.

Incidentally, that guy I was listening to? He was actually a "real lawyer" and had done his "case work."

I think that emotional response stems from the fact that we are taught from very young in grade school that "anyone can be President one day", and we essentially view it from an egalitarian point of view, as some sort of right of citizenship. However that's not the case. The Founders intended that the "natural born" requirement protect the Office of President from foreign influence, and believed it was better to protect the rights of all citizens, than to have such an open access where virtually anyone might be President.

"Natural born citizen" is not from man-made "Positive Law", and is not subject to legislative statute, but originates by definition entirely outside that man-made law, in natural law, a fundamental concept to this country's founding principle. The term "natural born" is a term of art, having specific meaning within the context of a most fundamental citizenship.

True, I am not an attorney, but my Father, a graduate of Yale and Harvard Law, a  "real lawyer", emphatically states that no law school teaches the meaning of "natural born citizen", and furthermore that's not a function of lawyering, which deals with torts, precedent and legal procedure.    Law school teaches one to function within the American legal system, a system that has been continually used to stretch and undermine this country's founding principles. However, when I actually need input from an attorney, I promise your counsel will be considered.

I can understand why you don't want to "spend a lot of time" arguing against what I've presented, because you'd be arguing an uphill battle against the only extant opinion of the U.S Supreme Court, not to mention an enormous volume of fact and history that exceeds what I've presented here.  What I've presented is not my own theory, but rather the facts of the issue recognized by numerous authorities, and supported by history that long predates even this country.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2012, 03:41:25 PM »
I did respond to the merits then, you just didn't understand them.  What you want the law to mean and what the Federal courts have held it to mean in the past are not the same thing.  For instance, you talk about what a term means based on the Declaration, however as historically important as it was, it is nowhere incorporated by reference into the Constitution as the law of the land, so what you read between its lines means nothing as far as US law is concerned.  It's useful, but not binding, for a court trying to understand a term directly used in both, but beyond that it has no legal authority in deciding cases under laws enacted since the Ratification.

I don't hate you, you seem like a pretty intelligent guy with a minor manic problem.  I just look at you as a time-wasting deceiver of yourself and others, like the periodic crop of yahoos who spring up and run around making a quick buck (or not) lecturing people on why they don't have to pay income taxes, or how they can print their own license plates, driver's licenses, or other documents as 'Constitutional Citizens,' or some other such malarkey.  I've dealt the the wreckage guys like that have wrought on the gullible before, it isn't pretty. 

But basically, you'd blow off any explanation I gave you this time, so just enjoy your fantasy world, I'm not going to waste my time looking up stuff you won't read or credit anyway.  If you and your fellow thinkers are so convinced, raise money to publicize your issue and take it to court.
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Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2012, 05:49:17 PM »
I did respond to the merits then, you just didn't understand them.  What you want the law to mean and what the Federal courts have held it to mean in the past are not the same thing.  For instance, you talk about what a term means based on the Declaration, however as historically important as it was, it is nowhere incorporated by reference into the Constitution as the law of the land, so what you read between its lines means nothing as far as US law is concerned.  It's useful, but not binding, for a court trying to understand a term directly used in both, but beyond that it has no legal authority in deciding cases under laws enacted since the Ratification.

Your response(s) recognized the states as having, quote, "broad and vaguely-defined power to do things necessary for the safety and welfare of their populace."  That may well be true, but that broad concept, and the 10th Amendment itself, do not provide authority to the states to annul individual liberties.. and this is recognized by case after case (that law).

Supreme Court interpretations

  •          In Ware v. Hylton, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 199 (1796), the Supreme Court for the first time relied on the Supremacy Clause to strike down a state statute. The state of Virginia had passed a statute during the Revolutionary War allowing the state to confiscate debt payments by Virginia citizens to British creditors.

        In McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316 (1819), the Supreme Court reviewed a tax levied by the state of Maryland on the federally incorporated Bank of the United States. The Court found that if a state had the power to tax a federally incorporated institution, then the state effectively had the power to destroy the federal institution, thereby thwarting the intent and purpose of Congress (and the Constitution).

        In Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. 304 (1816), and Cohens v. Virginia, 19 U.S. 264 (1821), the Supreme Court held that the Supremacy Clause and the judicial power granted in Article III give the Supreme Court the power to review state court decisions involving issues arising under the Constitution and laws of the United States

And there are many other Supreme Court decisions that follow upon and continue to affirm that "states Rights" do not allow them to subvert individual rights, freedoms and property.

Contrary to your assertion, I was NOT claiming some broad protection extended from the Declaration, but rather the principles seen throughout the U.S. Constitution itself.  Among other protections in the Constitution, the Supremacy Clause explicitly protects individual rights from theft and usurpation by state authority. Beyond that, the Declaration is listed in U.S. Code, along with the Northwest Ordinance, the Articles of Confederation, and the U.S. Constitution itself, as being the "organic law" of the United States. "Organic law", to those who do not know, is the fundamental law and principle of a state or nation. It may not be in the form of statute, but it is inherent to the Constitution and laws of the United States.

If this were not true, our so-called "rights" and the fundamental idea that they are not granted unto us by any government, would be worthless - a sham.

Despite this, this consideration of law, statute, has nothing whatsoever to do with the meaning of "natural born citizen", which remains outside of man-made law, and statute. Your entire response here is a deflection having nothing to do with the consideration of natural born.

I don't hate you, you seem like a pretty intelligent guy with a minor manic problem.  I just look at you as a time-wasting deceiver of yourself and others, like the periodic crop of yahoos who spring up and run around making a quick buck (or not) lecturing people on why they don't have to pay income taxes, or how they can print their own license plates, driver's licenses, or other documents as 'Constitutional Citizens,' or some other such malarkey.  I've dealt the the wreckage guys like that have wrought on the gullible before, it isn't pretty.  

I couldn't give a damn about what you think of me personally, but you seem to have a compulsion to go personal rather than respond to the argument itself. And falsely impugning me with things I have never said, such as "income tax, license plates, driver's licenses", and whatever other crap you care to come up with, is a dishonest attempt to impugn my argument with "false association".

And believing I'm going to roll over, simply because you reference your law degree, that's another flaw of argumentation, in reference to a false (and irrelevant) authority, done in the absence of any argument at all.

I've laid out the facts for you, and you're invited to address those facts ... if you can.

Here's some further additional fact. Throughout this country's early history, we never gave direct citizenship at birth merely as a result of being born on American soil. That so-called "birthright citizenship" only came about 1898 from the corruption of "jurisdiction" in the 14th Amendment, 30 years after the 14th Amendment was enacted. This corruption came about from deliberate judicial malfeasance of the Court in Wong Kim Ark, and was done because the Court could not deny the authority of Congress to enact the "Chinese exclusion acts", which prohibited the entry (or re-entry) of Chinese into the country.  

If mere birth on U.S. soil did not result in citizenship during all that time, then how the hell did we have any legitimate "natural born citizen" President during that period? The only citizenship at birth that occurred in this country's early history, was citizenship achieved not by any statute authority, but rather the result of being born to two citizen parents on U.S. soil --- a natural born citizen.

But basically, you'd blow off any explanation I gave you this time, so just enjoy your fantasy world, I'm not going to waste my time looking up stuff you won't read or credit anyway.  If you and your fellow thinkers are so convinced, raise money to publicize your issue and take it to court.

I do solemnly promise that I will respond directly and specifically to "anything you give me" to support your argument.   I have in fact spent the time "looking stuff  up", and I've likely seen what you might find in a casual search.  It doesn't worry me.

And regarding "taking it to court", as I've previously indicated,  I believe the issue of natural born has been repeatedly rejected by the Supreme Court, not because (all) the challenges are invalid, but because even if the Court were to again recognize that definition of natural born, there is no authority indicated anywhere in the Constitution, for the Court to declare a sitting President to be unqualified to hold office. The last opportunity available under established process was when Congress counted the electoral vote, prior to pronouncing Obama the winner. Thus this concern is dismissed as "political" consideration.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any comment on the evidence I referenced that McCain also is unqualified to hold that Office, and he was promoted by deliberate and focused fraud?

Incidentally, if I did not believe you and I were capable of having an intelligent and worthwhile exchange, I'd have no need to waste my time responding to your empty posts at all.


Offline rich_t

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2012, 06:15:45 PM »
 :popcorn:

I'm looking forward to this....
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Offline sybilll

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2012, 07:51:03 PM »
Now, why was this not dug up before?
THAT was the whole point.  Had the MSM actually vetted Obama, this would have easily been found.  If I had to guess, I think the Breitbart staff debated long and hard about releasing this at all, because it is in no way a "birther" issue.  Obama molded himself into what was needed to gain favor and advancement, and the media would not report it because he is the Chicago Jesus. 

Offline obumazombie

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2012, 09:26:04 PM »
THAT was the whole point.  Had the MSM actually vetted Obama, this would have easily been found.  If I had to guess, I think the Breitbart staff debated long and hard about releasing this at all, because it is in no way a "birther" issue.  Obama molded himself into what was needed to gain favor and advancement, and the media would not report it because he is the Chicago Jesus. 
Yeah but not the "hey zeus" pronunciation of it.
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Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2012, 04:23:10 PM »
Here is a simple "proof" that the interpretation natural born citizen involves both two parents who are citizens, as well as birth on a country's soil.  


The Proof:

ON July 25th, 1787 John Jay sent a letter to George Washington who was presiding over the Constitutional Convention. People attribute that letter from Jay as the influence that led to the adoption of the natural born citizen requirement for the Office of President. John Jay went on to become America's first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:

  • Letter from John Jay to George Washington
        New York 25 July 1787

        Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expresly that the Command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.


Many of us, even most of us, look at the Article II requirement for President as if it were just a hurdle for the office of President, and that it doesn't really accomplish anything real. This is not true. It has real significance. We just need to recognize it ... and apply it.

We commonly recognize that those born overseas, not on American soil, even if born to two American citizen parents,  are not natural born citizens.  That part is easy, a 'given'.

However if two parents, who are not American citizens, but are foreign, were to give birth on American soil, there is no way we would think of their offspring as being "non-foreign" simply because they were born here. And it wasn't until the 1898 fabrication by the Court of "birthright" anchor baby citizenship that those offspring got American citizenship at all!

American soil is not somehow "magical", suddenly changing the nature of those offspring of foreigners, to somehow become by mystical process "American". Those offspring only real allegiance, and the only effect upon them, involves foreign countries, societies, and their values.

If two Alien, non-citizen, parents were your neighbors, and they gave birth to a child, you wouldn't suddenly look upon that child as being "American".  You'd look upon that child as being every bit as foreign as its parents, and in no way  a part of, nor product of, American society.

The "natural born citizen" requirement for Article II, isn't just some vague hurdle put into place, but rather has real effect of prohibiting anyone born with foreign allegiance from holding the office of President. While one's Loyalty no one can truly know, one's allegiance is publicly known and recognized, and involves consideration of an offspring's parents citizenship at birth. John Jay was no idiot, and his  suggestion to Washington has real effect in limiting foreign influence in the presidency.

Even assuming Obama was born in Hawaii (which I do), even to one American citizen parent, we continually see the effect of having one parent being a foreign national, and Obama's allegiance to another country, and other ideologies, despite having spent very little time with that parent -- his father.

Obama, by his own admission, was born of a Kenyan father who transferred British citizenship to him at birth.

  • â–º        If Barack Obama were a natural born citizen, born entirely of American society, then he would not have authored a biography entitled "Dreams FROM My Father", essentially about his Father's desires for Communism in Kenya, while engaging an open hostility for free market Capitalism. That biography, and Obama's political outlook, would also be less likely to revolve around race and class warfare.

    â–º        If Barack Obama were a natural born citizen of the United States, born with no other allegiance than to here, then he would not have traveled to Kenya in the midst of the Democratic Party Primaries of 2007, and there given stump speeches beside fellow Luo tribesman Raila Odinga about the corruption of the Kenyan Government, thus giving Odinga a false credibility that led to the butchery of 1,200 Christian Kenyans by machete and being burnt alive in razed Churches at the hands of the Islamic minority.  Obama would not have been afoul of the Logan Act, as he was,  the Kenyan government would not have filed a complaint against Obama, as it did, and Obama would not have given Odinga so much credibility that the Kenyan government had to create a position for Odinga even though he lost the election.  Obama put his presidential candidacy at risk because of his allegiance to Kenya conveyed through a father he barely knew!

    â–º        If Barack Obama were a natural born citizen, one of his first acts in office would not have been to send back the bust of Winston Churchill to Britain, because of Britain's past history of empire-building involving Kenya.

    â–º        If Barack Obama were a natural born citizen, he would not be so openly hostile to America's allies, Britain and Israel.


    â–º        If Barach Obama were a natural born citizen, he would not so likely and readily want to engage policies to transfer America's wealth and prosperity to other nations, even hostile nations, while killing American properity at home.

    â–º        If Obama were a natural born citizen of these United States, he would not be basing his agenda on "fundamentally changing" this country and the theft of our freedoms under a tyrannous government.


While the requirement of being a natural born citizen of the United States, is no guarantee of not having foreign loyalties and interests being held by someone occupying the office of President, it is a security against having any foreign allegiance upon one's birth, thereby making agreement with those ideologies which are hostile to this country far less likely.



« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 04:37:05 PM by Trip »

Offline wasp69

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 09:34:21 AM »
:popcorn:

I'm looking forward to this....

I doubt you're going to see much, I don't think DAT is willing to bother with this.
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

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A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »
I doubt you're going to see much, I don't think DAT is willing to bother with this.

After having had several exchanges, I question whether DAT has the "firepower" to deal with this directly. But I agree; I doubt we will see much.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:56:37 AM by Trip »

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2012, 01:34:25 AM »
After having had several exchanges, I question whether DAT has the "firepower" to deal with this directly. But I agree; I doubt we will see much.




Ahhh yes because you above the rest of us are the only real brains around here.  All hail the mighty Trip!  How dare we question the superior intellect of a man...a God among me...who lives within sight of Valley Forge...therefore qualifying him more than the rest of us lesser sentinent beings to know exactly what every word comma and period of the Constitution means and exactly what the Founding Fathers were discussing when they put quill to parchment.

And any questioning of his intellectual genius will be judged as a personal attack and dealt with by snarky retort of the type he despises as he finishes another work of brilliant prose on these pages.

 :whatever:

In reality...


You're self aggrandizing egomaniac with  an opinion of yourself that's wayyyyyy higher than what it should be and when you're called on your bullshit...instead of honest debate or perhaps admitting you might be wrong...you belittle the group as just being to stupid to engage with you or to comprehend what you're saying.

Get over yourself Chip...no one but yourself is impressed with you.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2012, 01:35:21 AM »
Now, why was this not dug up before?

The media knew.  They just turned a purposeful blind eye.  And they continue to do just that today.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2012, 01:47:12 AM »
At the end of the day...IMHO this whole birth certificate thing is stupid.  If anything because his mother is American.

This is a distrction...and not worthy of discussion outside of a conspiracy thread.

British loyalty...facke doccuments...born in Kenya...born in Hawaii...when you look at what we REALLY need to point out to the masses about what this amateur in the WH has done...WHO THE **** CARES about his birth certificate?

Seriously?  He was elected he's been in office almost four years...let it go people.

Focus all that time and energy you're devoting to this birther thing to talking about and getting the word out about what he's done to the debt...how he nationalized two auto companies...how he's telling CEO's what they can and can't make...and the myriad of other attempts to destroy this country form within that are happening on a daily basis from within his office.

 :thatsright:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2012, 04:20:07 AM »
At the end of the day...IMHO this whole birth certificate thing is stupid.  If anything because his mother is American.

This is a distrction...and not worthy of discussion outside of a conspiracy thread.

British loyalty...facke doccuments...born in Kenya...born in Hawaii...when you look at what we REALLY need to point out to the masses about what this amateur in the WH has done...WHO THE **** CARES about his birth certificate?

Seriously?  He was elected he's been in office almost four years...let it go people.

Focus all that time and energy you're devoting to this birther thing to talking about and getting the word out about what he's done to the debt...how he nationalized two auto companies...how he's telling CEO's what they can and can't make...and the myriad of other attempts to destroy this country form within that are happening on a daily basis from within his office.

 :thatsright:


The funny thing is that all those transgressions you reference, and more, are all stemming from the fact that he was born with an allegiance to his father, and his father's Communism, while having disdain for American freedoms and free-market Capitalism.  And very likely, he also acquired his affinity for Islam from his father, rather than the faux Christianity of Black Liberation Theology he pretends to cling to.  

Had Americans been more aware of the constraints the founders put into the Constitution, Obama would not have even been a problem over the past four years. But instead we got a guy who wants to transfer America's wealth and prosperity to other countries, all while he undermines our freedoms, and is setting up the structure for rigid martial law at his whim, and has left our children and children's children, with an unbearable debt burden and looming inflation.

Right there, in his own words from his FightTheSmears site, "hidden in plain sight":




So we should ignore the fact that the phrase is "natural born citizen", not just "citizen" or "born citizen", ignore the fact they rejected Hamilton's draft containing "born citizen", and just ignore that pesky word "natural", because we've got no earthly idea what it means. "Natural born"? Those loony  founders were probably talking about avoiding Cesarean sections anyway!

  • “It cannot be presumed that any clause
    in the constitution is intended to be without effect;
    and therefore such construction is inadmissible,
    unless the words require it.”

    Chief Justice John Marshall
    Marbury vs. Madison

But you're right about one thing. That birth certificate doesn't matter at all. Obama could have been born in swaddling clothes, in a manger, on the steps of the Supreme Court, and witnessed by all Nine, and he still would not be a natural born citizen of these United States.

Unfortunately, your theory about the mother being sufficient to make him a natural born citizen... it doesn't appear anywhere in any of that Court's writings addressing the matter over its entire history. It's right up there with your pet theory that the founders discarded "unalienable rights" when they drafted the Constitution. And thank god they did too, otherwise we'd be "just like Canada"! :snicker:




« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:22:54 AM by Trip »

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2012, 04:50:45 AM »

The funny thing is that all those transgressions you reference, and more, are all stemming from the fact that he was born with an allegiance to his father, and his father's Communism, while having disdain for American freedoms and free-market Capitalism.  And very likely, he also acquired his affinity for Islam from his father, rather than the faux Christianity of Black Liberation Theology he pretends to cling to.

And you can link to this where? 



But you're right about one thing. That birth certificate doesn't matter at all. Obama could have been born in swaddling clothes, in a manger, on the steps of the Supreme Court, and witnessed by all Nine, and he still would not be a natural born citizen of these United States.

Unfortunately, your theory about the mother being sufficient to make him a natural born citizen... it doesn't appear anywhere in any of that Court's writings addressing the matter over its entire history. It's right up there with your pet theory that the founders discarded "unalienable rights" when they drafted the Constitution. And thank god they did too, otherwise we'd be "just like Canada"! :snicker:

[/quote]

And here is where I prove you wrong...again...this is getting too easy.  Your oversized ego and hyper inflated sense of self makes you look even more foolish than you already are when you look and discover things like this:

Quote
What are the rules for people born between December 23, 1952 and November 13, 1986?

Again, children born abroad to two US citizen parents were US citizens at birth, as long as one of the parents resided in the US at some point before the birth of the child.

When one parent was a US citizen and the other a foreign national, the US citizen parent must have resided in the US for a total of 10 years prior to the birth of the child, with five of the years after the age of 14.   An exception for people serving in the military was created by considering time spent outside the US on military duty as time spent in the US.

While there were initially rules regarding what the child must do to retain citizenship, amendments since 1952 have eliminated these requirements.

Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen mother were US citizens if the mother was resident in the US for a period of one year prior to the birth of the child.  Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen father acquired US citizenship only if legitimated before turning 21.

http://www.visalaw.com/05jan1/2jan105.html


You keep clining to your twisted and misinformed vision of what our laws are Chip...and I'll keep living in the real world.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2012, 05:44:26 AM »
And you can link to this where? 



But you're right about one thing. That birth certificate doesn't matter at all. Obama could have been born in swaddling clothes, in a manger, on the steps of the Supreme Court, and witnessed by all Nine, and he still would not be a natural born citizen of these United States.

Unfortunately, your theory about the mother being sufficient to make him a natural born citizen... it doesn't appear anywhere in any of that Court's writings addressing the matter over its entire history. It's right up there with your pet theory that the founders discarded "unalienable rights" when they drafted the Constitution. And thank god they did too, otherwise we'd be "just like Canada"! :snicker:



And here is where I prove you wrong...again...this is getting too easy.  Your oversized ego and hyper inflated sense of self makes you look even more foolish than you already are when you look and discover things like this:

http://www.visalaw.com/05jan1/2jan105.html


You keep clining to your twisted and misinformed vision of what our laws are Chip...and I'll keep living in the real world.

It was different in 1947.

My X-wife was born in Germany in 1947 to an American soldier married to a British mother. She had German and British citizenship when I married her at age 21. British by the fact her mother was British and German by the fact she was born in Germany. She got her U.S. citizenship after we were married. If she and I had had children, they probably would not have been able to be president due to the citizenship questions.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2012, 06:06:06 AM »
The funny thing is that all those transgressions you reference, and more, are all stemming from the fact that he was born with an allegiance to his father, and his father's Communism, while having disdain for American freedoms and free-market Capitalism.  And very likely, he also acquired his affinity for Islam from his father, rather than the faux Christianity of Black Liberation Theology he pretends to cling to.

And you can link to this where?

Link to WHAT where? That he disregards free-market capitalism? That his father was a communist? That he supports Marxist ideology and spreading the wealth around? That he evidences an affinity for Islam far more than Christianity, and that BLT doesn't even promote anything resembling Christianity?  

I'm tempted to say, "You're kidding, right?", but will be content with saying, "you need to specify."





And here is where I prove you wrong...again...this is getting too easy.  Your oversized ego and hyper inflated sense of self makes you look even more foolish than you already are when you look and discover things like this:

Quote
What are the rules for people born between December 23, 1952 and November 13, 1986?

Again, children born abroad to two US citizen parents were US citizens at birth, as long as one of the parents resided in the US at some point before the birth of the child.

When one parent was a US citizen and the other a foreign national, the US citizen parent must have resided in the US for a total of 10 years prior to the birth of the child, with five of the years after the age of 14.   An exception for people serving in the military was created by considering time spent outside the US on military duty as time spent in the US.

While there were initially rules regarding what the child must do to retain citizenship, amendments since 1952 have eliminated these requirements.

Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen mother were US citizens if the mother was resident in the US for a period of one year prior to the birth of the child.  Children born out of wedlock to a US citizen father acquired US citizenship only if legitimated before turning 21.

http://www.visalaw.com/05jan1/2jan105.html


You keep clining to your twisted and misinformed vision of what our laws are Chip...and I'll keep living in the real world.

No, slick, you haven't proven anything.  The only thing you've proven, once again, is you haven't a damn clue about what you're talking about.

Read those portions I've highlighted once again, this time with just a tiny bit of discernment.

The passages is referring to C-I-T-I-Z-E-N-S-H-I-P, not natural born citizen! I'm not even contesting that Obama is a CITIZEN, nor even contesting that Obama was a citizen AT BIRTH!

What you're looking at is N-A-T-U-R-A-L-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N, the process by which someone becomes a citizen by statute or act of Congress, and in this instance, the statutes that are applicable between "December 23, 1952 and November 13, 1986". That page you reference is even titled, "The ABC’s of Immigration: Citizenship Rules for People Born Outside the United States", showing you its not even for those born on American soil!  

You better alert even the leftist media about your newest clueless theory, that those born overseas are "natural born citizens" too, because they think it only requires birth on American soil!  You really should have been able to figure this one out on your own.

I can provide for you a whole slew of applicable statutes that reference CITIZENSHIP status, and none of which have any effect whatsoever on the Article II demand that every person holding the office of President must be a natural born citizen!

Title 8 USC 1401,  General citizenship
Title 8 USC 1402,  Puerto Rico
Title 8 USC 1403, Panama  Canal Zone (McCain became only CITIZEN by this, and a year after his birth.)
Title 8 USC 1404, Alaska
Title 8 USC 1405, Hawaii
Title 8 USC 1406, U.S. Virgen Islands
Title 8 USC 1407, Guam


These statutes invariably, without exception, are not "natural" but are naturalization law, and are dealing only with "citizen" at birth, not "natural born citizen".  Even the term "naturalization", means "to make as if natural" - a natural born citizen. It does not effectively make them a natural born citizen!

If any of those statutes involved a "natural" citizen, they would not have needed any sort of statute in the first place!

The 14th Amendment also addresses citizenship (of blacks), and upon birth, but that Amendment did not affect natural born citizen either, which it does not reference. The left-wing clueless do likewise have an inclination for referring to these statutes and the 14th Amendment, to further their disregard for the Constitution.  Instead of going on a fishing expedition, you should have actually read and understood the previous quote I provided by Justice Marshall; it is inadmissible to ignore "natural" in the phrase "natural born citizen".

As I stated previously, "natural born" originates in Natural Law, not man-made Positive Law. This profoundly indicates that you won't find help for your ignorant theory anywhere in man-made statute!



What? You don't want to defend your theory that the Constitution is  not based on "unalienable rights"? I'm sure that onlookers here are not resting easy about that oath you swore to defend the Constitution, since you evidently believe the federal government is able to forfeit our rights without any violation of that Constitution.

No, you quite definitely have not even come close to proving me wrong... not on anything, ever.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 06:33:02 AM by Trip »

Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2012, 06:47:48 AM »
It was different in 1947.

My X-wife was born in Germany in 1947 to an American soldier married to a British mother. She had German and British citizenship when I married her at age 21. British by the fact her mother was British and German by the fact she was born in Germany. She got her U.S. citizenship after we were married. If she and I had had children, they probably would not have been able to be president due to the citizenship questions.


If she had become a naturalized American citizen prior to the birth of your hypothetical offspring, then they would be natural born American citizens, provided they were born on American soil.


Offline dixierose

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2012, 08:50:03 AM »
At the end of the day...IMHO this whole birth certificate thing is stupid.  If anything because his mother is American.

This is a distrction...and not worthy of discussion outside of a conspiracy thread.

British loyalty...facke doccuments...born in Kenya...born in Hawaii...when you look at what we REALLY need to point out to the masses about what this amateur in the WH has done...WHO THE **** CARES about his birth certificate?

Seriously?  He was elected he's been in office almost four years...let it go people.

Focus all that time and energy you're devoting to this birther thing to talking about and getting the word out about what he's done to the debt...how he nationalized two auto companies...how he's telling CEO's what they can and can't make...and the myriad of other attempts to destroy this country form within that are happening on a daily basis from within his office.

 :thatsright:

H^5. I agree completely.
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Offline wasp69

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2012, 09:53:19 AM »
What? You don't want to defend your theory that the Constitution is  not based on "unalienable rights"?

Jeez, threadstalk much?

Quote
I'm sure that onlookers here are not resting easy about that oath you swore to defend the Constitution

Rest assured when I tell you that you are most definitely wrong and, quite frankly, you need to throttle back your attitude against a military veteran on this board who swore an oath and put his ass on the line; something that you could not find worthy of doing yourself.
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

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A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline CG6468

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2012, 09:57:23 AM »
Another troll. We should show his what "military" means.
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Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2012, 11:04:42 AM »
Jeez, threadstalk much?

Rest assured when I tell you that you are most definitely wrong and, quite frankly, you need to throttle back your attitude against a military veteran on this board who swore an oath and put his ass on the line; something that you could not find worthy of doing yourself.

except for the fact that is what the U.S. Supreme Court says...

.. throughout its entire history.

... and is supported by numerous Congress persons, over the time of that history, and a book documenting the definition, that was the most referenced document by this nation's founders during the authoring of the Constitution, put in that library by Benjamin Franklin.

The problem is you don't know even half the Truth.

And for the record, I consult  all branches of the U.S. military, about half of my employment time.  I commonly work with with special forces and Navy seal members in my work with UXO, and I have their respect and they mine; I contract them.  I spent the entirety of Desert Storm in a military base, doing work that I am still discouraged from talking about, but one might surmise what a geologist might be doing at a Navy base providing the intel for that particular incursion.  I know exactly what "military" means.  It's quite different from being a Government Issue ignoramus that has sought to harass since my arrival on the forum, and particularly given that oath, should have a far better knowledge of the Constitution, than things commonly known by the average elementary school child.  

The claim the Constitution is not founded on unalienable rights, would be thoroughly amusing, if it were not so sad that undoubtedly so many in our military have no grasp of the Constitution and freedoms they are sworn to defend. It is out of an abiding respect to those who do serve with honor and real appreciation for this country, that I do not say anything further.
 
Overall, it is best that persons do not surmise what they don't know anything about.


Offline wasp69

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2012, 11:49:08 AM »
The problem is you don't know even half the Truth.

If you say so, Trip.

Quote
And for the record, I consult

How very noble of you, Trip.

Quote
I spent the entirety of Desert Storm in a military base, doing work that I am still discouraged from talking about, but one might surmise what a geologist might be doing at a Navy base providing the intel for that particular incursion.

Bully for you, Trip.

Quote
I know exactly what "military" means.

I'm sure you think you do, Trip.

Quote
It's quite different from being a Government Issue ignoramus that has sought to harass since my arrival on the forum, and particularly given that oath, should have a far better knowledge of the Constitution, than things commonly known by the average elementary school child.  

It is out of an abiding respect to those who do serve with honor and real appreciation for this country...

In case you missed it:

Quote
ConservativeCave
Board Rules of Conduct

GENERALITIES
Any disparaging comments about the Military, Active Duty Personnel, Veterans and their families and are strictly forbidden.

Discussion of the Military, Active Members, Reserve, Veterans, Police Officers, other First Responders and any issue involving these individuals
Absolutely no troop-bashing allowed. We honor and respect all of our Military, Police, or other First Responders here on ConservativeCave. Any comment, photo, article or link that serves to disrespect our troops or their missions will be removed and you will face disciplinary action. The ONLY exception to this would be if you are linking to something from a site like DU.
http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,8777.0.html

Throttle it back, Trip.

Quote
Overall, it is best that persons do not surmise what they don't know anything about.

Physician, heal thyself first.
"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful."

C.S. Lewis

A community may possess all the necessary moral qualifications, in so high a degree, as to be capable of self-government under the most adverse circumstances; while, on the other hand, another may be so sunk in ignorance and vice, as to be incapable of forming a conception of liberty, or of living, even when most favored by circumstances, under any other than an absolute and despotic government.

John C Calhoun, "Disquisition on Government", 1840

Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2012, 12:04:33 PM »


The idea that I in any way was "bashing" the troops is thoroughly ludicrous, and offensive.




Offline obumazombie

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2012, 12:06:30 PM »

The idea that I in any way was "bashing" the troops is thoroughly ludicrous, and offensive.




If a poll was taken I'm sure you wouldn't like the outcome, just speaking from my perspective.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline Trip

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Re: The Vetting - Exclusive - Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet:
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2012, 12:07:47 PM »
If a poll was taken I'm sure you wouldn't like the outcome, just speaking from my perspective.

Good thing the facts and the truth are not affected by a poll among idiots.

Every sane American should be deeply disturbed by the fact that any member of our military believes our rights to be "alienable", able to be taken from us, by the government authority which that military represents.



« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:10:14 PM by Trip »