Swiss to vote on $2,800 monthly income for all adults - DUmmies drool

[98ZJUSMC]

You're right Wasp.  I'm putting Lilith on my iggy list.....PLOINK!!!!!!

 

I regret that I only have one to give!

[98ZJUSMC]

Interesting proposal.  How could we accomplish this?  Wouldn't it require massive state/government intrusion?

-Laelth

Sorry.  Exactly the reverse.

....and you know it's true.  

Quote from: Laelth on October 04, 2013, 01:21:56 pm

Stuff happens.  Most of the poor people I know became poor through no fault of their own.  They got unlucky.  It's that simple.  I hope you never get unlucky.  If you do, I hope your ideology bites you in the buttocks.

-Laelth

This was a response to kraven, and I want to walk back the last part.  Actually, if you ever are unlucky and do find yourself dependent upon "We the People" of the United States, I hope that there's an adequate social safety net to protect you and your family.

-Laelth

That would be prudent.  That ideology built this country that has allowed an ever growing welfare state to survive.  Conservative fiscal policy didn't shrink the safety net and drive Social Security to impending insolvency.  You can thank Johnson and the slick accounting practices of the Clintoon Administration, for that.  The only two administrations that attempted to do anything to fix SS were the Reagan (somewhat successfully) and the Bush (ignored and vilified relentlessly with more lies about ...."no problems").  

We don't live paycheck to paycheck.  The inevitable "rainy days" are planned for and we live (well) within our means.  Funny thing about those rainy days.  Almost every single one involved the government.  Speaking of which, your welfare state ideology is in the process of monsooning the average Joe.  Enjoy the fail.

I do find it somewhat amusing that your beloved EuroSocialists -through the IMF - are all worried about the US debt ceiling and how it's going to crash the world economy if it's not raised.

I wonder why that is?

[Laelth]

Sorry.  Exactly the reverse.

....and you know it's true. 

Not being snarky here.  I really am not following you.

wasp69 suggested that the world would be a better place if everyone shared his admirable work ethic.  Fine.  But how can we force people to adopt wasp69's work ethic without massive, government intrusion?  That's my question.

The SCOTUS has ruled that the right to rear one's children as one sees fit is a fundamental, constitutional right protected at strict scrutiny.  The SCOTUS has signaled that it will strike down any law that attempts to tell parents how to rear their children (assuming such a law was designed to force parents to create in their children that desirable wasp69 work ethic).

How can we do this?  How can we make people have the good work ethic that wasp69 was lucky enough to have inherited from his parents?  See what I mean?  It would take massive, government intrusion if we wanted to do this by law.  If we're talking about some mechanism other than the law, it's outside the realm of politics.

-Laelth 

[JohnnyReb]

Not being snarky here.  I really am not following you.

wasp69 suggested that the world would be a better place if everyone shared his admirable work ethic.  Fine.  But how can we force people to adopt wasp69's work ethic without massive, government intrusion?  That's my question.

The SCOTUS has ruled that the right to rear one's children as one sees fit is a fundamental, constitutional right protected at strict scrutiny.  The SCOTUS has signaled that it will strike down any law that attempts to tell parents how to rear their children (assuming such a law was designed to force parents to create in their children that desirable wasp69 work ethic).

How can we do this?  How can we make people have the good work ethic that wasp69 was lucky enough to have inherited from his parents?  See what I mean?  It would take massive, government intrusion if we wanted to do this by law.  If we're talking about some mechanism other than the law, it's outside the realm of politics.

-Laelth 

Liberals hate Christianity....so they should approve if we take the antichristian route....we let them go hungry, naked and homeless for awhile and then those that still won't work to eat we kill...same method Stalin/Mao used.

[98ZJUSMC]

Not being snarky here.  I really am not following you.

Of course not.  You have no answers that lay within the realm of reality.  I couldn't care less if you're "following" me or not.  Progressives are not hardwired to follow logic and mAtH!!!!111!!!! is a foreign language.

How can we do this?  How can we make people have the good work ethic that wasp69 was lucky enough to have inherited from his parents? See what I mean?  It would take massive, government intrusion if we wanted to do this by law.  If we're talking about some mechanism other than the law, it's outside the realm of politics.

-Laelth  

Inherited?!?!?!  

You have got to be kidding me.  No, it's learned behavior just as sloth is learned behavior.  Everyone, has a tendency to be lazy, at times.  

[Laelth]

Liberals hate Christianity....so they should approve if we take the antichristian route....we let them go hungry, naked and homeless for awhile and then those that still won't work to eat we kill...same method Stalin/Mao used.

Quite recently, I read an article that made what I thought was an interesting point.  Paraphrasing, the jist of the argument was that conservatives believe you can get the best out of people by treating people badly whereas liberals tend to believe that you get the best out of people if you treat them well.

Apparently, there's some truth to that argument.

 

-Laelth

[Mr Mannn]

More trollishness.

I treat you badly because I don't respect you...not because I'm expecting better behavior.

[Laelth]

Inherited?!?!?!  

You have got to be kidding me.  No, it's learned behavior just as sloth is learned behavior.  Everyone, has a tendency to be lazy, at times.  

Yes, inherited.  I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't "earn" my parents, nor did I "earn" the work ethic I learned from them.  I lucked into it.  What do we do with people whose parents lacked the work ethic that wasp69's parents had?  How are these citizens to blame for their parents' failures?

More importantly, what are we willing to do about it?  My point was that we can't force parents, constitutionally, to create a good work ethic in their children.  So, now what?

 

-Laelth

 

[redwhit]

FDR launched a ton of programs to combat the Great Depression.  Nearly all of them are gone now.  Clinton abolished AFDC.  These things just happen.  We try stuff, and we get rid of stuff.  This dynamic does not bother me.

-Laelth

Completely irrelevant.  The Great Depression was beaten not by anything FDR or the Congress did but by war.  Clinton abolished the AFDC not as a thing that didn't work but as part of a grand, sweeping plan to "end welfare as we know it," a measure to get ahead of Gingrich and the Contract with America.  Besides, it's now back, less than a generation later, as Obama is insisting that more and more money be thrown at the failed LBJ measures.

[biersmythe]

Its not my job to keep you alive ...it is YOURS! I do not believe rewarding bad behavior, just good behavior. If you work you eat...if you don't the liberal dies. Not real hard you just seem really dense.

[wasp69]

Not being snarky here.  I really am not following you.

wasp69 suggested that the world would be a better place if everyone shared his admirable work ethic.  Fine.  But how can we force people to adopt wasp69's work ethic without massive, government intrusion?  That's my question.

The only "government intrusion" would be for the same government to stop the incentive for healthy people to not work, end the overlapping and job killing regulations that stand in the way of business, and save the "safety net" as a minimum for the truly needy.  That would put the onus back on to the various religious and private charities who served as the local/regional help before the liberals turned the government into "mommy".

The rest can be accomplished by society.  Why don't you join us in resurrecting the notions of shame, embarassment, and pride?  Those don't need a government commisar.

The SCOTUS has ruled that the right to rear one's children as one sees fit is a fundamental, constitutional right protected at strict scrutiny.  The SCOTUS has signaled that it will strike down any law that attempts to tell parents how to rear their children (assuming such a law was designed to force parents to create in their children that desirable wasp69 work ethic).

See a problem, look to the government to fix it, huh?  Sad...  Why do you need a king?

How can we do this?  How can we make people have the good work ethic that wasp69 was lucky enough to have inherited from his parents?  See what I mean?  It would take massive, government intrusion if we wanted to do this by law.  If we're talking about some mechanism other than the law, it's outside the realm of politics.

-Laelth 

What you deem inherited was more a product of inculculation of common sense principals being applied to a problem as well as learned behavior from practical experience.  Your genetic model is wrong and has no basis in reality.  But you knew that already, didn't you?  You wouldn't be your obtuse, disrupting, trolling self if you were honest, would you?

What I have done can be taught and is something that is repeatable if one applies it. 

[wasp69]

Quite recently, I read an article that made what I thought was an interesting point.  Paraphrasing, the jist of the argument was that conservatives believe you can get the best out of people by treating people badly whereas liberals tend to believe that you get the best out of people if you treat them well.

Apparently, there's some truth to that argument.

 

-Laelth

No, you didn't, nor could you point to a credible source where any such thing was written.

[Mr Mannn]

No, you didn't, nor could you point to a credible source where any such thing was written.

He's a DUmmy. Liberals lie, all the time.

[Laelth]

No, you didn't, nor could you point to a credible source where any such thing was written.

Here you go, rude person.  http://www.ianwelsh.net/the-logic-of-the-surveillance-state/

Liberalism, in its classic form, is, among other things, the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them well.  Conservatism is the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them badly.

Full iggy for you.

-Laelth

[Carl]

Quite recently, I read an article that made what I thought was an interesting point.  Paraphrasing, the jist of the argument was that conservatives believe you can get the best out of people by treating people badly as responsible adults whereas liberals tend to believe that you get the best out of people if you treat them well as dependent children.
 
Apparently, there's some truth to that argument.

 

-Laelth

Fixed for truth and accuracy.

[txradioguy]

Here you go, rude person.  http://www.ianwelsh.net/the-logic-of-the-surveillance-state/

Full iggy for you.

-Laelth

Childish....typical Lib.

[98ZJUSMC]

Quote from: Laelth on Today at 08:41:50 am
Quite recently, I read an article that made what I thought was an interesting point.  Paraphrasing, the jist of the argument was that conservatives believe you can get the best out of people by treating people badly whereas liberals tend to believe that you get the best out of people if you treat them well.

Apparently, there's some truth to that argument.

 Huh?

-Laelth

Well....the straight line descent from deliberately obtuse to blatant lie.  What complete and utter crap.  So typical.  We can create a surveillance state that will be all hopey changey and by sheer force of our superior intellect (  ), bypass all the bad stuff (that always happens).

How stupid does one have to be to constantly disregard history? 

[Freeper]

Liberalism, in its classic form, is, among other things, the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them well.  Conservatism is the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them badly.

Bullshit! Liberals, or as I prefer to call them leftists treat people horribly. They treat people like children, and tell them they need someone looking out for them. They tell people how big their sodas can be, how much salt they can use, and what kind of health insurance they need. They also demonize those who are successful and tell people who are lazy that they are deserving of some of the wealth that the successful people have. Instead of trying to push people to do better leftists simply lower the standards whether it's in education or requirements for the workforce.

Conservatives treat people like adults who are capable of doing things for themselves. I would much rather be treated like an adult than a child that needs the government to run my life and steal from other people to give "free stuff" to me.

Naturally leftists feel that conservatives treat people badly when we expect adults to be adults, because leftists are still mentally children that have never been forced to grow up.

[98ZJUSMC]

Liberalism, in its classic form, is, among other things, the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them well. Conservatism.

Something you don't learn in Ethnic Studies.

[Laelth]

Bullshit! Liberals, or as I prefer to call them leftists treat people horribly. They treat people like children, and tell them they need someone looking out for them. They tell people how big their sodas can be, how much salt they can use, and what kind of health insurance they need. They also demonize those who are successful and tell people who are lazy that they are deserving of some of the wealth that the successful people have. Instead of trying to push people to do better leftists simply lower the standards whether it's in education or requirements for the workforce.

Conservatives treat people like adults who are capable of doing things for themselves. I would much rather be treated like an adult than a child that needs the government to run my life and steal from other people to give "free stuff" to me.

Naturally leftists feel that conservatives treat people badly when we expect adults to be adults, because leftists are still mentally children that have never been forced to grow up.

Hey, your argument is with Ian Welsh, not me.  I just said I had read it recently.  I said that in response to the argument that treating the poor badly would "give them an incentive" to work (an attitude shared by more than a few people on this site).  If so, it appears Mr. Welsh may be onto something.

-Laelth

[Freeper]

Hey, your argument is with Ian Welsh, not me.  I just said I had read it recently.  I said that in response to the argument that treating the poor badly would "give them an incentive" to work (an attitude shared by more than a few people on this site).  If so, it appears Mr. Welsh may be onto something.

-Laelth

What you call treating people badly is what we call personal responsibility. If you constantly make bad decisions in your life and some government agency bails you out how are you going to ever learn to take care of yourself? Look at that DUmmy locust who is 30 something and couldn't even last a week in college, his parents enabled him his whole life and now he can't even deal with dorm life. Did his parents do him any favors by not using tough love? No they turned him into a neurotic leech.

My argument is with you, you posted that so you must be in agreement with it.

[Laelth]

What you call treating people badly is what we call personal responsibility. If you constantly make bad decisions in your life and some government agency bails you out how are you going to ever learn to take care of yourself? Look at that DUmmy locust who is 30 something and couldn't even last a week in college, his parents enabled him his whole life and now he can't even deal with dorm life. Did his parents do him any favors by not using tough love? No they turned him into a neurotic leech.

My argument is with you, you posted that so you must be in agreement with it.

I'm just letting you prove Mr. Welsh's point.  What you call "tough love" I call "treating people badly."  It's clear you favor that.  So be it.

-Laelth

[jukin]

I hate to tell you, you poor ****ing DUchebags, that 30 years ago I was knocking down almost $2.600/month out of college.

Of course I had a BSME, had put myself through college by first drafting, then designing equipment and had 5 years of that experience. What I didn't get to do was to go out and party every night or go to all the concerts in college but I sure got to do everything I wanted after getting out. I also got to work about 55 hrs a week exempt. Overalll the $/hr was not as big of change once I had the degree.

Hard work, applying yourself, getting experience, and good decisions can and used to make all the difference in the world. Doing nothing, getting a BA in some easy yet obscure area, and whining about how you are so special does not get you anywhere in life other than the basement or section h8.

[Carl]

I'm just letting you prove Mr. Welsh's point.  What you call "tough love" I call "treating people badly."  It's clear you favor that.  So be it.

-Laelth

By what evidence of humanity have you ever seen coddling be productive?

[Big Dog]

Here you go, rude person.  http://www.ianwelsh.net/the-logic-of-the-surveillance-state/

Full iggy for you.

-Laelth

Some guy named Ian's blog is not a credible source.

Some guy named ian

"Liberalism, in its classic form, is, among other things, the proposition that you get more out of people if you treat them well."

Particularly not the blog of someone who is so horribly wrong about classical liberalism (the progenitor of today's libertarianism, not your leftist Statism).

The classical liberal knows that men are inherently corrupt, and the organizations of corrupt men are equally corrupt themselves. Government must have no more than the minimum amount of power necessary to accomplish its purpose- to protect the personal liberty of its Citizens.