Zionism's Dead End: Separation and Transfer

[Zathras]

I'm no expert

Wow, that's the first truthful thing you said here.....the rest of your posts are bullshit.

[txradioguy]

You're all for self-determination?

"self-de·ter·mi·na·tion (slfd-tûrm-nshn)
n.
1. Determination of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion; free will.
2. Freedom of the people of a given area to determine their own political status; independence."

Then explain why you support the UN decision to prevent Jews and Arabs from determining their own political status in 1948 Palestine?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-determination

There's nothing in the resolution that prevents either from doing that.  All Israel wanted back was historical lands that belonged to it's people.

The Palestinians who had NEVER had any historical land anywhere were offered a chance to create that and refused.

Which is a way is self determination...just not in a positive way as history has shown.

[txradioguy]

Some of those that you call "Arab squatters" had ancestors living continuously in Palestine for 1500 years before 1948.

And the Jews were there before the New Testament.  You in your limited knowledge on the subject seem to think Israel just sprang up one day in 1948 and had never existed before that.

[georgephillip]

And the Jews were there before the New Testament.  You in your limited knowledge on the subject seem to think Israel just sprang up one day in 1948 and had never existed before that.

You're saying that Jews alone, among all nations, are entitled to land their ancestors conquered thousands of years ago?

[txradioguy]

You're saying that Jews alone, among all nations, are entitled to land their ancestors conquered thousands of years ago?

What's the matter?  Don't like your argument turned against you?

Oh and incase you ignore it on your other Jew bashing thread:

Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers from the late 19th century to the turn of the 20th, the area called Palestine was a deserted waste land that belonged to the Ottoman Empire, based in Turkey.

'Palestinianism' in and of itself lacks any substance of its own. Arab society on the West Bank and Gaza suffer from a deep social cleavage created by a host of rivalries based on divergent geographic, historical, sociological and familial allegiances.

What glues Palestinians together is a carefully nurtured hatred of Israel and the rejection of Jewish nationhood.

“All [that Palestinians] can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build.”1 New York Times Columnist Thomas Friedman

The Palestinians’ claim that they are an ancient and indigenous people fails to stand up to historic scrutiny. Most Palestinian Arabs were newcomers to British Mandate Palestine. Until the 1967 Six-Day War made it expedient for Arabs to create a Palestinian peoplehood, local Arabs simply considered themselves part of the ‘great Arab nation’ or ‘southern Syrians.’
 
There is no age-old Palestinian people. Most so-called Palestinians are relative newcomers to The Land of Israel.
 
Palestinian Arabs cast themselves as a native people in “Palestine” – like the Aborigines in Australia or Native Americans in America. They portray the Jews as European imperialists and colonizers. This is simply untrue.
 
Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers from the late 19th century to the turn of the 20th, the area called Palestine was a God- forsaken backwash that belonged to the Ottoman Empire, based in Turkey.
 
The land’s fragile ecology had been laid waste in the wake of the Arabs’ 7th- century conquest. In 1799, the population was at it lowest and estimated to be no more than 250,000 to 300,000 inhabitants in all the land.
 
At the turn of the 20th century, the Arab population west of the Jordan River (today, Israel and the West Bank) was about half a million inhabitants and east of the Jordan River perhaps 200,000.3
 
The collapse of the agricultural system with the influx of nomadic tribes after the Arab conquest that created malarial swamps and denuded the ancient terrace system eroding the soil, was coupled by a tyrannous regime, a crippling tax system and absentee landowners that further decimated the population. Much of the indigenous population had long since migrated or disappeared. Very few Jews or Arabs lived in the region before the arrival of the first Zionists in the 1880s and most of those that did lived in abject poverty.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/12/debunking-the-biggest-lie-palestinian-.html

[txradioguy]

One of the currents in the news lately has been the unilateral Palestinian push for a UN declaration of a Palestinian state, a move largely brought about by dangerously incompetent Obama administration diplomacy. This declaration is founded on two Big Lies: the first is that Palestinians are an ethically and historically distinct people, deserving of their own state — not true.

The second is that Jews have been the unreasonable aggressors and Palestinians the long-suffering victims (2) who’ve never had a chance at a home of their own.

The fact is, the Arabs of Palestine have been offered their own state several times over the past century and, each time, they’ve slapped away the proffered hand of peace and responded with violence. Wallowing in the Jew-hatred that’s hard-wired into Islam, their leaders sought out allies from, among all people, the Nazis. Even after the Nazi defeat and repeated failures to destroy Israel since world War II, the Palestinians have rejected generous offers, one after the other.
 
The US will likely veto the statehood declaration in the Security Council, but it is sure to pass the General Assembly. Though it will be legally meaningless, it will be a moral defeat for Israel and Western values. As any objective analysis of the historical record shows, the “Palestinians” in no way deserve their own state — not until they grow up and can act like civilized adults.

http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2011/09/20/bill-whittle-debunking-the-palestinian-lie/

[txradioguy]

The myth of Palestinian nationhood

Not only do the Palestinians admit that they are not a discrete sociological entity, i.e., a people.
 
They also concede that as a political unit, i.e., a nation, their demands and aspirations as are neither genuine nor permanent.
 
Thus Muhsin candidly confessed: “It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel [sic].”
 
Doesn’t get much more explicit than that! Indeed the Palestinians not only affirm that their national demands are bogus, but that they are only a temporary instrumental ruse.
 
In the current National Covenant they declare: “The Palestinian people are a part of the Arab Nation... [and] believe in Arab unity... however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity.”
 
So how are we to avoid concluding that at a later stage there will be no need to preserve their identity or develop consciousness thereof? How are we to avoid concluding that Palestinian identity is merely a short-term ruse to achieve a political goal of annulling the “illegal 1947 partition of Palestine,” (i.e. Israel).
 
As King Hussein said: “The appearance of the Palestinian national personality comes as an answer to Israel’s claim that Palestine is Jewish.”
 
Nothing more.


The myth of Palestinian peoplehood

Senior Palestinian leaders have admitted – openly, consistently and continually – that Palestinians are not a discrete people identifiably different from others in the Arab world.
 
For example, on March 14, 1977, Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, told Newsweek: “Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people.”


The myth of a Palestinian homeland

Article 16 of the original version of the Palestinian National sets out the desire of the people of Palestine, “who look forward to... restoring the legitimate situation to Palestine, establishing peace and security in its territory, and enabling its people to exercise national sovereignty...”
 
However, since the Covenant was adopted in 1964, well before Israel “occupied” a square inch of the “West Bank” or Gaza, the question is precisely what is meant by “its territory” in which the Palestinians were “looking forward...to exercise national sovereignty.” Indeed in Article 24, they state specifically what this territory did not include, and where they were not seeking to exercise “national sovereignty.”

In it they explicitly proclaim that they do not desire to “exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, [or] on the Gaza Strip.”
 
From this we learn two stunning facts. Not only did the Palestinians not claim the “West Bank” and Gaza as part of their homeland, but they specifically excluded them from it. Moreover, they explicitly acknowledged – and accepted –that the “West Bank” belonged to another sovereign entity, the Hashemite Kingdom.
 
There is thus not the slightest resemblance – indeed not even one square inch of overlap – between the territory claimed by the Palestinians as their “homeland” when they first formulated their national aspirations and the “homeland” allegedly envisaged/claimed today.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/UN-nation-un-nation-non-nation-anti-nation
 
 

[obumazombie]

^I'll bet george won't even bother to read that.

[DefiantSix]

^I'll bet george won't even bother to read that.

He's demonstrated greater skill at cut and paste than any kind of critical thinking.

[Eupher]

Great job, TRG. Hi-5.   

Am learning a ton here with this. Unlike our pal george, I might add.

[obumazombie]

Great job, TRG. Hi-5.   

Am learning a ton here with this. Unlike our pal george, I might add.

I'm like you in learning the specifics, but the generalities, that the muslims are propagandists who are constantly lying cheating and trying to steal I knew almost instinctively.

[Dori]

I'm like you in learning the specifics, but the generalities, that the muslims are propagandists who are constantly lying cheating and trying to steal I knew almost instinctively.

This reminds me of how the Democrats treat blacks in this country.  They are only used as useful idiots. 

It's a shame the Palestinians are so blind to what the radical Islamists are doing to them.

[txradioguy]

I'm like you in learning the specifics, but the generalities, that the muslims are propagandists who are constantly lying cheating and trying to steal I knew almost instinctively.

The absolutely frightening thing is that we have people in our own government...in positions to make policy decisions in that part of the world that have the same view on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that this racist sh*tbag does.

[obumazombie]

The absolutely frightening thing is that we have people in our own government...in positions to make policy decisions in that part of the world that have the same view on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that this racist sh*tbag does.

I would agree with you at the "disenfranchised" level. But the higher someone goes on the power especially political power scale the more they use ideology to advance their agenda. I believe they do it very disingenuously as well.

[Eupher]

I'm like you in learning the specifics, but the generalities, that the muslims are propagandists who are constantly lying cheating and trying to steal I knew almost instinctively.

I was speaking more of the Balcourt document and the 55% deal that Ody clarified; along with some of the outcomes of WWI with respect to the Ottoman Empire.

I knew that the Ottoman Empire took it in the shorts after WWI, but some of the details were not clear.

Regarding the muzzies, however, you're spot on. Not hard to see that and most specifically, it's not difficult to see how Israel can and should be utterly ruthless with dealing with its "neighbors."

[Bad Dog]

I don't trust anybody with two first names.  I'll bet Georgie doesn't even like PIE.

[wasp69]

I am curious, george, if you are a holocaust denier like your hero chomsky?

[georgephillip]

Chomsky has never denied the Holocaust.
He supports the free speech rights of those who are ignorant enough to question its historical reality.
As a Jew growing up during WWII in Philadelphia, Noam was caught between racist bigots who celebrated the Fall of Paris with beer parties, and his friends from school who condemned Chomsky for not taunting and throwing rocks at Nazi POWs.

[georgephillip]

The myth of Palestinian nationhood

Not only do the Palestinians admit that they are not a discrete sociological entity, i.e., a people.
 
They also concede that as a political unit, i.e., a nation, their demands and aspirations as are neither genuine nor permanent.
 
Thus Muhsin candidly confessed: “It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel [sic].”
 
Doesn’t get much more explicit than that! Indeed the Palestinians not only affirm that their national demands are bogus, but that they are only a temporary instrumental ruse.
 
In the current National Covenant they declare: “The Palestinian people are a part of the Arab Nation... [and] believe in Arab unity... however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity.”
 
So how are we to avoid concluding that at a later stage there will be no need to preserve their identity or develop consciousness thereof? How are we to avoid concluding that Palestinian identity is merely a short-term ruse to achieve a political goal of annulling the “illegal 1947 partition of Palestine,” (i.e. Israel).
 
As King Hussein said: “The appearance of the Palestinian national personality comes as an answer to Israel’s claim that Palestine is Jewish.”
 
Nothing more.


The myth of Palestinian peoplehood

Senior Palestinian leaders have admitted – openly, consistently and continually – that Palestinians are not a discrete people identifiably different from others in the Arab world.
 
For example, on March 14, 1977, Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, told Newsweek: “Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people.”


The myth of a Palestinian homeland

Article 16 of the original version of the Palestinian National sets out the desire of the people of Palestine, “who look forward to... restoring the legitimate situation to Palestine, establishing peace and security in its territory, and enabling its people to exercise national sovereignty...”
 
However, since the Covenant was adopted in 1964, well before Israel “occupied” a square inch of the “West Bank” or Gaza, the question is precisely what is meant by “its territory” in which the Palestinians were “looking forward...to exercise national sovereignty.” Indeed in Article 24, they state specifically what this territory did not include, and where they were not seeking to exercise “national sovereignty.”

In it they explicitly proclaim that they do not desire to “exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, [or] on the Gaza Strip.”
 
From this we learn two stunning facts. Not only did the Palestinians not claim the “West Bank” and Gaza as part of their homeland, but they specifically excluded them from it. Moreover, they explicitly acknowledged – and accepted –that the “West Bank” belonged to another sovereign entity, the Hashemite Kingdom.
 
There is thus not the slightest resemblance – indeed not even one square inch of overlap – between the territory claimed by the Palestinians as their “homeland” when they first formulated their national aspirations and the “homeland” allegedly envisaged/claimed today.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/UN-nation-un-nation-non-nation-anti-nation
 
 

A Land Without A People for a People Without a Land?
Although Palestinian nationalism began finding its overt expressions in the first decade of the 20th Century, far-sighted Zionist colonizers could see the clouds gathering:

"The most prominent of these was the renowned Zionist thinker Ahad Ha’am, who drew his colleagues’ attention to the burgeoning problem already in 1891 in the article 'Truth from the Land of Israel' which he wrote after a visit he paid to the early Zionist settlements in Palestine.

"'The Jews abroad tend to consider all Arabs as desert savages [ ... ] but this is a serious mistake, the Arabs like all children of Shem have sharp minds and are resourceful,' Ahad Ha’am wrote then, 100 years ago.

"He noticed that initially many Arabs were friendly to the Jews since the scope of Jewish colonization was still very small and did not seem to them to present a real menace. 'But when the time will come and the Jews will develop in this country and will start to displace the Arabs, they will not quit the land so easily.'"

In fact, the Jewish colonization of Palestine could not have happened without the deep pockets and big guns of the dominant global empires of their times: The British between 1917 and 1947 and the US since 1967.

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=543

[georgephillip]

I was speaking more of the Balcourt document and the 55% deal that Ody clarified; along with some of the outcomes of WWI with respect to the Ottoman Empire.

I knew that the Ottoman Empire took it in the shorts after WWI, but some of the details were not clear.

Regarding the muzzies, however, you're spot on. Not hard to see that and most specifically, it's not difficult to see how Israel can and should be utterly ruthless with dealing with its "neighbors."

That's not a new spot for Zionist colonizers to find themselves in, especially the neighbors who were living there first:

"Paradoxically, it was the radical Zionist nationalist Ze’ev Jabotinsky who first recognized Palestinian nationalism as such, and correctly understood the head-on clash between the two national movements, who claimed ownership rights for the same land and aspired to realize their new national identity in it.

"In a famous article titled 'The Iron Wall' published in 1923, he recognized clearly that 'in the land of Israel two nations will always live.'

"He wrote that, unlike the Arabs of Baghdad or Mecca, for whom Palestine may well be a marginal area, "for the Arabs of Eretz Yisrae1 this land is not a border area; this is their only homeland, the sole center and base of their separate national existence."

"From his realism as an observer he recommended to the Zionists a militant policy: The Jews must acquire the land without even trying to win the agreement of its former inhabitants, and erect an iron wall (meaning military power) in order to defend their project against the Palestinian resistance and despite their bitter opposition.

"The iron wall will have to be maintained until the day comes in which the Arabs will be obliged to realize that Zionist control over the land is irreversible. Only when the Palestinians totally despair of the efficacy of their resistance, will peace come to the land."

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=543

[wasp69]

Chomsky has never denied the Holocaust.
He supports the free speech rights of those who are ignorant enough to question its historical reality.
As a Jew growing up during WWII in Philadelphia, Noam was caught between racist bigots who celebrated the Fall of Paris with beer parties, and his friends from school who condemned Chomsky for not taunting and throwing rocks at Nazi POWs.

From at least 1984 through 1992, [Noam] Chomsky corresponded with a man who, during those time periods, was one of the leading authors and editors in the Holocaust denial movement. And it was a very friendly correspondence, complete with praise for the denier’s work, and an offer of assistance on Chomsky’s part.

The denier in question is L.A. “Lou” Rollins.

In the first of the recently uncovered letters, Chomsky expresses happiness that Rollins was able to find Chomsky’s anti-Israel book “The Fateful Triangle” useful in his work. Chomsky tells Rollins that he’s pleased to hear that he (Rollins) is writing about Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel, who Chomsky proceeds to call “one of the major frauds of our time.” He compares Wiesel to Nazi collaborators, and accuses him of “exploiting the Holocaust to justify oppression and murder.”

Chomsky promises to send Rollins “news clippings from the Jewish press” to assist him with his anti-Wiesel screed (Rollins’ Chomsky-assisted essay would appear in the fall 1985 edition of the IHR’s “journal”).

Chomsky closes by writing, “I’m looking forward to hearing more about your study.”...

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/136465.html

Link to the letter:  http://www.countercontempt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG.pdf

So, want to try that again?  Or do you wish to claim ignorance and willful obtuseness?

[txradioguy]

A Land Without A People for a People Without a Land?
Although Palestinian nationalism began finding its overt expressions in the first decade of the 20th Century, far-sighted Zionist colonizers could see the clouds gathering:

"The most prominent of these was the renowned Zionist thinker Ahad Ha’am, who drew his colleagues’ attention to the burgeoning problem already in 1891 in the article 'Truth from the Land of Israel' which he wrote after a visit he paid to the early Zionist settlements in Palestine.

"'The Jews abroad tend to consider all Arabs as desert savages [ ... ] but this is a serious mistake, the Arabs like all children of Shem have sharp minds and are resourceful,' Ahad Ha’am wrote then, 100 years ago.

"He noticed that initially many Arabs were friendly to the Jews since the scope of Jewish colonization was still very small and did not seem to them to present a real menace. 'But when the time will come and the Jews will develop in this country and will start to displace the Arabs, they will not quit the land so easily.'"

In fact, the Jewish colonization of Palestine could not have happened without the deep pockets and big guns of the dominant global empires of their times: The British between 1917 and 1947 and the US since 1967.

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=543

Again with the biased sources. The Palestine Israel Journal?  Really?

You're not even trying to present an unbiased argument.  But then again most racists never do.

Again there was no colonization.  It never was "Palestinian" land.  There was no self identifying "Palestinian" people until the mid 60's.

[georgephillip]

Again with the biased sources. The Palestine Israel Journal?  Really?

You're not even trying to present an unbiased argument.  But then again most racists never do.

Again there was no colonization.  It never was "Palestinian" land.  There was no self identifying "Palestinian" people until the mid 60's.

Racists deny an Arab presence in Palestine or Filastin or Palestina that had been documented for centuries before 1948:

"The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[5] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.[6][7][8][9][10][11]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_%22Palestine%22#Crusaders_period

The ancestors of today's Arab Palestinians have a continuous historical presence in Palestine and the Middle East that's as least as significant as the descendants of European Jews who began colonizing Palestine in the late 19th Century. Both groups of people have mutual denial of the Other in common:

"The Arab-Jewish conflict over the land which Jews refer to as Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel» and the Arabs call Filastin, was permeated from the beginning by mutual denial of the collectivity of the Other.

"The slogan which was coined by a Jewish leader at the beginning of the century, 'a people without a land for a land without a people' expressed a widespread perception among Zionists.

"As late as the early 1970s, Golda Meir, the prime minister of Israel at the time, publicly denied the existence of a Palestinian people.

"The Arabs, for their part, could never understand or accept the notion that the Jews, whom they knew for centuries only as a religious collective, have ~he right to be considered as a 'nation.'

"Article 20 of the Palestinian Charter, which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) first articulated in 1965 as the basis for its entire political and spiritual struggle reads: 'Judaism, being a religion of the Covenant, does not constitute a nationality with an independent existence, and the Jews do not constitute a separate nation with a unique identity. The Jews are the citizens of the states to which they belong.'"

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=543

[txradioguy]

The denial of the "Palestinian" people wasn't started by Israel...it was denied by the Arabs as well.

Since you didn't red it the first time....read it now:

Thus Muhsin candidly confessed: “It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel [sic].”
 
Doesn’t get much more explicit than that! Indeed the Palestinians not only affirm that their national demands are bogus, but that they are only a temporary instrumental ruse.


Senior Palestinian leaders have admitted – openly, consistently and continually – that Palestinians are not a discrete people identifiably different from others in the Arab world.
 
For example, on March 14, 1977, Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, told Newsweek: “Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people.”

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/UN-nation-un-nation-non-nation-anti-nation

There it is in plain easy to understand quotes from fellow bigots like yourself.  But go ahead and continue to to insulate yourself from the cold hard facts with some nice warm racial hatred.

Idiot. 

[georgephillip]

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/136465.html

Link to the letter:  http://www.countercontempt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG.pdf

So, want to try that again?  Or do you wish to claim ignorance and willful obtuseness?

Here's Chomsky's letter.
Do you want to refute any of it or provide primary examples of Rollin's Holocaust denial?

http://www.countercontempt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG.pdf