My 19 year old has personal paralysis...

[jukin]

I'm not surprised the kid has turned out this way.  My only question is how is it Bush's fault?

1. If Bush hadn't been elec...selected her moonbat parents wouldn't be as ravers.

2. If Bush hadn't been elec...selected the MSM might not be 95% the sky is falling.

3. If Bush hadn't been elec...selected Al Gore would have made sure every kid had a unicorn.

4. If Bush hadn't been elec...selected...........................

[JohnnyReb]

H5 Johnny! I think our dads may be related. My brother went through a phase of "don'tgiveadamnitis" Dad cured him real fast.

I was once out of work at 20 and kind of floundering. I was going through that typical stage most kids go through. I ended up taking a semester off from college and moving in with my dad and stepmom. He woke me up the first day at 6am and told me that until I got a job, my job was to find a job. He took me down to the store, bought me a paper with the help wanted ads (before internet) and told me sit at the typewriter and make a resume (before personal computers). Then, I had to go down to the library (I had to walk) and photocopy it and mail them off. Dad asked to see the envelopes and ads everyday.

My, my, a long lost cousin. You never know what you'll find on the internet.

I kind of doubt they were kin. But I will say that we were fortunate in the fact that we had real parents not the mambi-pambi things that pass for parents today. BTW unlike what I think most women do today, my mother backed my daddy up to the hilt. She loved me more than anything in this world and would have given me anything she could, done anything for me, anything, but she loved me enough to give me what I needed most, a shove out the nest.

[Chris_]

I once had "personal paralysis" myself.

I was 22 years old, honarably discharge from the military, owned a new car that was paid for, had money in the bank and came home to stay with mom & dad. I didn't think I needed to work for awhile, you know, kind of an "unwind thing". Oh, I had chores to do on the farm to pay my room and board, that was understood without it even being discussed. So, I was whiling away my not so full days and nights catching up with friends and the local gossip etc. after my chores were done of course. My Daddy didn't approve of me 'laying around the house' (his idea if your day wasn't full of work, not mine). So he tells me, "If you're going to stay here, you got to get out and find a job. You ain't staying here and not work." So I went to a couple of places (big industry) that I knew weren't hiring, that wasn't good enough......LOL The old man wasn't known for being dumb.

One afternoon he comes home from work and says, "You got a job yet?" Me, "No Sir." Daddy says, "Get in the car." You didn't argue with my daddy so I got in the car. I ask, "Where we going?" Daddy says, "To get you a job." Me, "I don't need a job. I got money." Daddy says, "Don't argue with me. You need a job." We pull up in a fellows yard that I've known all my life and he's standing in the yard. He's a contractor and was known as a real slave driver. Daddy asks, "Need any help?" ....thus began the damnest job interview you ever heard. Man answers, "Yeah, I can always use some help. Why, you looking for a job?" Daddy answers, "No. But "Bo" is." I blurt out, "I'm not looking for a job." Man asks daddy, "What can he do." Daddy says, "Anything you need done." I blurt out, "I don't need a job." Man asks daddy, "When can he start?" Daddy says, "First thing in the morning." I interject again, "I don't want a job." Man tells daddy, "Tell him to be here at 6:30 in the morning." Daddy says, "He'll be here." Me again, "....but I don't want a job." Needless to say, I was there the next morning before 6:30 thus ending my one and only foray into "personal paralysis". :-) .......but then, that was back when parents were parents and they didn't think you were fully grown up until you were 40 or they were dead, whichever came first.

H5 -- you have GOT to send that story to Reader's Digest!!!  My wife and are here LOL! :)

[delilahmused]

Why don't these parents ever set conditions...and stick to them. I have NO problem with a little down time. Jake took the summer off between college and the Marines. Of course, he fenced in pastures, helped me upgrade the rabbit house, worked in the garden, mowed, cleared brush, etc. Some kids simply aren't ready for college...especially if they've been pushed all through high school. I'd wager that's a good number of DUmmie kids since they equate intelligence to AP classes and are constantly bragging about their kids' grades over there. There's nothing wrong with a kid getting a job for a year or two before college. Often, it's all the incentive they need to get their butts in college. Adult children should pay rent of some kind, whether that's trading room and board for work at home or money earned from a job. If I were this DUmmie, I"d be questioning my parenting skills.

Cindie

[DixieBelle]

H5 Johnny! I think our dads may be related. My brother went through a phase of "don'tgiveadamnitis" Dad cured him real fast.

I was once out of work at 20 and kind of floundering. I was going through that typical stage most kids go through. I ended up taking a semester off from college and moving in with my dad and stepmom. He woke me up the first day at 6am and told me that until I got a job, my job was to find a job. He took me down to the store, bought me a paper with the help wanted ads (before internet) and told me sit at the typewriter and make a resume (before personal computers). Then, I had to go down to the library (I had to walk) and photocopy it and mail them off. Dad asked to see the envelopes and ads everyday.

My, my, a long lost cousin. You never know what you'll find on the internet.

I kind of doubt they were kin. But I will say that we were fortunate in the fact that we had real parents not the mambi-pambi things that pass for parents today. BTW unlike what I think most women do today, my mother backed my daddy up to the hilt. She loved me more than anything in this world and would have given me anything she could, done anything for me, anything, but she loved me enough to give me what I needed most, a shove out the nest.

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

I have a healthy respect (and a bit of fear) for my mom and dad to this day. I'm a grown woman and they treat me like one. But I automatically think of how disappointed and upset they would be if I did something stupid. I did go through the normal rebellious stage but I got through it and unlike a lot of my friends, I have a wonderful relationship with my parents. I take a vacation with each of them every summer. I'll go to the lake with my mom and go somewhere with my dad as well. It's nice to have that time and someday they will be gone and I'll be glad I did. I'm just shocked and ashamed at how many adults I know don't even speak to their parents. Now, I'm not naive. I realize some people can't or shouldn't have a relationship with a parent because of extenuating circumstances. But the ones I know just simply act selfish and childish and are stuck at the age of 15 it seems. They must have had DUmmie parents.

[Lauri]

[quote Kick out your lazy kid and tell them they are on their own.  There is no more serious motivation than the prospect of sleeping on the streets.  KC

That require them to be real parents and .....well liberals just can't do that.

Another funny one on me.

About a month before I was to marry, my daddy says, "You found a place to stay yet?" I answered him, "No Sir." He says, "Well where the hell you think you and your bride are going to stay?" I tell him, "Well, I kindda thought we'd stay with you and momma for a little while until I could save up some more money." He says, "You get the hell out of here and go find a place today. The kitchen ain't big enough for 2 women." I had a 2 room garage apartment before the sun went down that day.

When I got married, I had a car, some clothes and an uncashed paycheck. That was just about it. Wife had what most wives have when they get married, a dress she'll only wear one time and some leftover wedding cake that they try to save forever. 3 weeks after the wedding and a couple days before Christmas, I quit my job. A week later I took what money I had and bought a lot. Then I borrowed money from my grandmother for a house and on newyears day, started digging the foundation. Remember now, I had no job and plus now I had a berzerk wife, also without a job. I picked up some odd jobs and worked on the house, all the while I never missed a payment. Then signed a bond for title and started making payments on 2 adjoining lots(short term notes). Then the bank suffered a lapse of good judgement and loaned me a wad so I could buy some heavy equipment and go into business. All this happened within the first 6 months of getting married so you know what kind of condition the wife was in.......LOL Her father would have killed me if he hadn't been in Viet Nam......LOL

Anyway, two and half years after starting from literally the very bottom, I had a new house, a new car, new pickup and a business, all paid for, free and clear. Then all the "You're never home", "We don't spend enough time together", "Money isn't everything", "There's more to life than material things" crap started. .....but years later she sure wanted more than her fair share of everything......LOL

Now I'm ALMOST broke enough to be a democrat but I sure am happy.......and she's miserable. (Just in case she's looking)
[/quote]


awesome story!

and yes, two women in the house is a bad idea. i love my 22 year old daughter with the whole of my heart. but she is a slob and thankfully, she's actively looking for a place now.. and its not too far away, which is perfect. if we can see each other but not have to discuss her habits, we get along beautifully..   

[Lauri]

and also, at 22, she is in school full time and working full time with an internship as well.

momma didnt raise no slackers.... 

[lastparker]

On a related note, a parent came to me during one of our PTA meetings and told me her son had "work aversion disorder."

Are you frickin' kidding me? There's a disease called "work aversion disorder"? You mean a 17-year-old doesn't want to do required reading, write essays, and study for quizzes? And it's a disorder?

My response to her?

"Who doesn't"?

 

Yeah. It's been around for a long time. People used to starve to death from it but thanks to liberalism, they found a cure or at least a life prolonging remedy, it's called "Welfare and foodstamps".

I would have H5'd you as many times as I could reasonably stand, but it only lets me once per hour.

[delilahmused]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

[jtyangel]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

[Lauri]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

we have a neighbor like that. he has been perpetually in bodily injury so he cant help with anything in his house. he cant watch the kids, but he can shoot hoops with his buddy. he cant lift kids, but he can haul groceries and beer.

i think both sides of have their deadbeat parents...

i think discipline is sadly lacking in our society (in me as well) and we are passing along this lacksadasical attitude to the kidlings.

our future is not looking too bright for that fact alone. who is going to pay for all these social programs us boomers are going to need. you slacker kids??   

[Rebel]

he cant lift kids, but he can haul groceries and beer.

WTH? He doesn't have a wife?

[DixieBelle]

Rebel! LOL!

Jty - you're right. It can be lazy-assed/clueless/careless/liberal parenting on both sides. I was just agreeing with JohnnyReb when he said that mothers used to back daddy up all of the way. Of course we're both referring to a different era all together. I do blame the breakdown of the traditional family/liberalism for this. And yes, I'm going to rag on Women's Lib too. I hope no one jumps on me, but I think that the Gloria Steinem movement killed the traditional family. At least in part. Don't misundertand me though! I am grateful for the brave women who stood up and fought for the rights I take for granted today. But they trampled husbands/fathers and men in general in the process. We're getting back to that age old debate about men/women and their roles. I hope ya'll know what I'm trying to say!

[MrsSmith]

I absolutely agree that the traditional family is the best way to raise kids...but on the side of the single mom, I did push, prod, nag and demand that all my kids make it at least through a GED program, which is something I've seen traditional families not manage.  My oldest did his military time and went to college on the GI Bill.  My next one had her first kid when she was 19, went back to college with a part-time job & minimal help from me, now has her Bachelor's degree and ended up getting her boss's job.  #3 hasn't pulled his head out, yet, but it doesn't help any that our wonderful school system managed to get him all the way through without giving him the skills to read a job ap on his own.  On the other hand, he is out on his own and not getting more than $100 - 200 annually, mostly as birthday or Christmas gifts.  And #4, the 19 year old, currently works one part-time job, just started a full-time job, and does have a Management Certificate from college already. 

FlaGator may be right that this kid needs help, but I think I'd try to boot-to-butt method first.  It's worked with mine.   

[BlueStateSaint]

I once had "personal paralysis" myself.

I was 22 years old, honarably discharge from the military, owned a new car that was paid for, had money in the bank and came home to stay with mom & dad. I didn't think I needed to work for awhile, you know, kind of an "unwind thing". Oh, I had chores to do on the farm to pay my room and board, that was understood without it even being discussed. So, I was whiling away my not so full days and nights catching up with friends and the local gossip etc. after my chores were done of course. My Daddy didn't approve of me 'laying around the house' (his idea if your day wasn't full of work, not mine). So he tells me, "If you're going to stay here, you got to get out and find a job. You ain't staying here and not work." So I went to a couple of places (big industry) that I knew weren't hiring, that wasn't good enough......LOL The old man wasn't known for being dumb.

One afternoon he comes home from work and says, "You got a job yet?" Me, "No Sir." Daddy says, "Get in the car." You didn't argue with my daddy so I got in the car. I ask, "Where we going?" Daddy says, "To get you a job." Me, "I don't need a job. I got money." Daddy says, "Don't argue with me. You need a job." We pull up in a fellows yard that I've known all my life and he's standing in the yard. He's a contractor and was known as a real slave driver. Daddy asks, "Need any help?" ....thus began the damnest job interview you ever heard. Man answers, "Yeah, I can always use some help. Why, you looking for a job?" Daddy answers, "No. But "Bo" is." I blurt out, "I'm not looking for a job." Man asks daddy, "What can he do." Daddy says, "Anything you need done." I blurt out, "I don't need a job." Man asks daddy, "When can he start?" Daddy says, "First thing in the morning." I interject again, "I don't want a job." Man tells daddy, "Tell him to be here at 6:30 in the morning." Daddy says, "He'll be here." Me again, "....but I don't want a job." Needless to say, I was there the next morning before 6:30 thus ending my one and only foray into "personal paralysis". .......but then, that was back when parents were parents and they didn't think you were fully grown up until you were 40 or they were dead, whichever came first.

As painful as it may have been at the time, you are obviously able to see the good it did.  H5 for that.

[delilahmused]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

I don't know, I pretty much knew my husband wasn't a wimp when I married him. Sometimes I suppose people are able to hide who they are SO thoroughly that one can be truly surprised to find out the person they married wasn't who they thought. But most of us can be reasonably sure who we're marrying (and consequently having children with) before walking down the aisle. Besides, I think it's much easier for a woman who's a controlling harpy bitch to pretend to be a sweet little thing than it is for a wimpy metrosexual nancy-boy pull off pretending to be a macho stud.

Cindie

[DumbAss Tanker]

I'm no doctor but at his age I would be concerned that his parents may be witnessing the onset of schizophrenia. It usually begins around college age and generally takes between 5 to 10 years  to totally take over a person. My brother started showing the signs of schizophrenia around the age of 20 and by the time he hit 25 he was suffering from delusions and auditory hallicinations. Unfortunately there isn't much hope to circumvent the illness. If he can get diagnosed and if the disease is present then he needs to start treatment ASAP. That would give him a chance at a somewhat normal life. Denial will only make things much worse.

Schizo or not, there may be quite a bit more to this than just directionless parenting and an utter lack of motivation on the kid's part.  I'm not gonna go as judgmental on this as the majority seems to want to, I have four kids with widely varying personalities.  Three of them have a firm grip on life and how things work, but Number Three is perfectly nice, generally agreeable, and very intelligent but has some sort of weird social retardation thing going that seriously affects his ability to prosper independently.  Evaluators over the years have uniformly thrown in the towel with the conclusion that "Well, he's not mentally ill, he's just real different."

[DixieBelle]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

I don't know, I pretty much knew my husband wasn't a wimp when I married him. Sometimes I suppose people are able to hide who they are SO thoroughly that one can be truly surprised to find out the person they married wasn't who they thought. But most of us can be reasonably sure who we're marrying (and consequently having children with) before walking down the aisle. Besides, I think it's much easier for a woman who's a controlling harpy bitch to pretend to be a sweet little thing than it is for a wimpy metrosexual nancy-boy pull off pretending to be a macho stud.

Cindie

Totally agree. Although there can be extenuating circumstances that cause a man to just completely check out and not give a damn. But yes, for the most part, you know what you're getting before going down the aisle. My mother always told me to pay attention to how a man handles his mother, a flat tire and screaming children. She was right

[jtyangel]

Rebel! LOL!

Jty - you're right. It can be lazy-assed/clueless/careless/liberal parenting on both sides. I was just agreeing with JohnnyReb when he said that mothers used to back daddy up all of the way. Of course we're both referring to a different era all together. I do blame the breakdown of the traditional family/liberalism for this. And yes, I'm going to rag on Women's Lib too. I hope no one jumps on me, but I think that the Gloria Steinem movement killed the traditional family. At least in part. Don't misundertand me though! I am grateful for the brave women who stood up and fought for the rights I take for granted today. But they trampled husbands/fathers and men in general in the process. We're getting back to that age old debate about men/women and their roles. I hope ya'll know what I'm trying to say!

I do...it's just a hot topic for me and the one or two who know me here personally know why it is

[DixieBelle]

Rebel! LOL!

Jty - you're right. It can be lazy-assed/clueless/careless/liberal parenting on both sides. I was just agreeing with JohnnyReb when he said that mothers used to back daddy up all of the way. Of course we're both referring to a different era all together. I do blame the breakdown of the traditional family/liberalism for this. And yes, I'm going to rag on Women's Lib too. I hope no one jumps on me, but I think that the Gloria Steinem movement killed the traditional family. At least in part. Don't misundertand me though! I am grateful for the brave women who stood up and fought for the rights I take for granted today. But they trampled husbands/fathers and men in general in the process. We're getting back to that age old debate about men/women and their roles. I hope ya'll know what I'm trying to say!

I do...it's just a hot topic for me and the one or two who know me here personally know why it is

No worries hon. ((((hugs jty)))

[DixieBelle]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

I don't know, I pretty much knew my husband wasn't a wimp when I married him. Sometimes I suppose people are able to hide who they are SO thoroughly that one can be truly surprised to find out the person they married wasn't who they thought. But most of us can be reasonably sure who we're marrying (and consequently having children with) before walking down the aisle. Besides, I think it's much easier for a woman who's a controlling harpy bitch to pretend to be a sweet little thing than it is for a wimpy metrosexual nancy-boy pull off pretending to be a macho stud.

Cindie

Well, I congratulate you for being such a fine judge of character and for making such a good yardstick ie stereotype for us all to judge men and women by. I will be sure to remember this post when I consider the specific man I'm thinking of who is about 6'2", 250, athletic, and likes 'manly activities'. I'll go ask if he's got any hand lotion squirreled away that should have given the clue that he would turn out to be such an inconsistent parent and a neglectful spouse.   

Come on, Cindie, lets face it...a lot of 20 something years old just aren't mature enough and/or don't have the familial guidance to discern small behavioral signs that can be big problems down the road and the men don't always come packaged to stand out like a sore thumb like your stereotype would imply. Trust me when I say if they go into their next relationships they will be far more careful when considering those little behavioral traits and lets face it they've got far more history to go on to look at if they weren't emotionally astute the first go round. I admire ladies like you and BEG who picked good quality men(it certainly makes like MUCH easier and less painful), but women who don't weren't always dumbasses who just overlooked big signs. Sometimes you dont' get to see the real man or woman until a real big test comes their way and they fall flat on their face, but how do you test for adversity from the beginning? HOw do you measure that if the person you meet is a complete stranger to you from the get go?  I'm genuinely curious...you should right a dating book for the less emotionally astute--but keep physical measures out--they usually aren't very accurate.

I think Cindie is speaking from her own personal experience. I don't presume to know what's in her head so she can clarify. I just don't think she meant anything personal Jty.

And if things go south in a marriage, it's not because you weren't emotionally astute in the beginning. People really do change and life's curveballs hit some people right upside the head and they don't ever get back up.

I'll share something personal: I was married to someone else before Mr. Belle. We were together almost nine years. Without going into a lot of detail, I can honestly say that we were great on paper but horrible in reality. I spent a long time beating myself up over my seemingly poor judge of character. It's a fruitless effort. Reader's Digest version: I no longer blame myself. I own my faults/flaws/bad decisions and I see his as well. If you had asked me years ago when I was going through my divorce if I would ever get over it, find new love, have a good relationship with my soon to be ex, I would have laughed in your face and then fell over from the shock of such a notion. All of those came to be. But it took time and a lot of painful personal growth. My ex is still who he is but he's also grown up and I'm quite proud of the man he is now. Don't get me wrong, I still know we were wrong for each other. I had to work with what I had at the time. And back then, it wasn't meant to be despite the painful attempts to work it out (and there were many). That shipped sailed so long ago. We have a great relationship. We share a son. We co-parent. I don't regret any of it. I'm pretty philosophical about it. You grow slowly into that.

I'm rambling here. I have no idea if my tangent sheds any light. But it kind of felt good to say it. 

[delilahmused]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

I don't know, I pretty much knew my husband wasn't a wimp when I married him. Sometimes I suppose people are able to hide who they are SO thoroughly that one can be truly surprised to find out the person they married wasn't who they thought. But most of us can be reasonably sure who we're marrying (and consequently having children with) before walking down the aisle. Besides, I think it's much easier for a woman who's a controlling harpy bitch to pretend to be a sweet little thing than it is for a wimpy metrosexual nancy-boy pull off pretending to be a macho stud.

Cindie

Well, I congratulate you for being such a fine judge of character and for making such a good yardstick ie stereotype for us all to judge men and women by. I will be sure to remember this post when I consider the specific man I'm thinking of who is about 6'2", 250, athletic, and likes 'manly activities'. I'll go ask if he's got any hand lotion squirreled away that should have given the clue that he would turn out to be such an inconsistent parent and a neglectful spouse.   

Come on, Cindie, lets face it...a lot of 20 something years old just aren't mature enough and/or don't have the familial guidance to discern small behavioral signs that can be big problems down the road and the men don't always come packaged to stand out like a sore thumb like your stereotype would imply. Trust me when I say if they go into their next relationships they will be far more careful when considering those little behavioral traits and lets face it they've got far more history to go on to look at if they weren't emotionally astute the first go round. I admire ladies like you and BEG who picked good quality men(it certainly makes like MUCH easier and less painful), but women who don't weren't always dumbasses who just overlooked big signs. Sometimes you dont' get to see the real man or woman until a real big test comes their way and they fall flat on their face, but how do you test for adversity from the beginning? HOw do you measure that if the person you meet is a complete stranger to you from the get go?  I'm genuinely curious...you should right a dating book for the less emotionally astute--but keep physical measures out--they usually aren't very accurate.

I think Cindie is speaking from her own personal experience. I don't presume to know what's in her head so she can clarify. I just don't think she meant anything personal Jty.

And if things go south in a marriage, it's not because you weren't emotionally astute in the beginning. People really do change and life's curveballs hit some people right upside the head and they don't ever get back up.

I'll share something personal: I was married to someone else before Mr. Belle. We were together almost nine years. Without going into a lot of detail, I can honestly say that we were great on paper but horrible in reality. I spent a long time beating myself up over my seemingly poor judge of character. It's a fruitless effort. Reader's Digest version: I no longer blame myself. I own my faults/flaws/bad decisions and I see his as well. If you had asked me years ago when I was going through my divorce if I would ever get over it, find new love, have a good relationship with my soon to be ex, I would have laughed in your face and then fell over from the shock of such a notion. All of those came to be. But it took time and a lot of painful personal growth. My ex is still who he is but he's also grown up and I'm quite proud of the man he is now. Don't get me wrong, I still know we were wrong for each other. I had to work with what I had at the time. And back then, it wasn't meant to be despite the painful attempts to work it out (and there were many). That shipped sailed so long ago. We have a great relationship. We share a son. We co-parent. I don't regret any of it. I'm pretty philosophical about it. You grow slowly into that.

I'm rambling here. I have no idea if my tangent sheds any light. But it kind of felt good to say it. 

I'm sorry I hit a sore spot, Jty. I've known some 6' tall 200lbs. drag queens so height and weight have little to do with qualities I tend to look for in a man. Sure some 20 somethings don't have good judgement...some 40 somethings don't have good judgement. I have a friend who has the worst taste in men possible who is also one of the smartest, hardest working people I know. The problem is that her poor judgement doesn't just affect her, it affects her children. It's one thing when your poor choices only hurt you...it's entirely something else when those decisions hurt others who have absolutely no control over the situation. I'm not even necessarily talking about the 20 something who realizes she's married to a creep after they've had a couple of kids. Everyone makes mistakes and if she learns from them that will only benefit her and her children. Life is a crap shoot and certainly people can change for better or worse because of many different reasons. But some bad choices can be overcome with effort. While there are people who are just instinctually good parents, it's also a skill that can be learned. Patience can be learned. Self-discipline can be learned. And there comes a point in life if you're continually making the same mistakes over and over again, you need to take a step back and take a good hard look at where you are and where you want to be. This is especially true if you have children being drug along through all your near-disasters (please note, I don't mean you personally...I mean the collective you).

Marriage is hard work. Parenting is hard work. People get into ruts and develop habits that perpetuate resentment and bad feelings. And you do have to be willing to work to be successful at both. I didn't have good examples for marriages or parenting when I was growing up. What I did have was plenty of examples of what I didn't want...that can be beneficial as well. Granted, I was probably a little more gun shy than most girls my age...probably why I was attracted to bad boys...they were as gun shy as myself. And I've certainly made huge mistakes. Maybe I just got lucky but it sure felt like I took a good long look at my life and realized I didn't want to go down the same path as my parents. I certainly didn't want it for any future kids I might have (the irony of course is that my husband's first wife was the psycho bitch from hell and so I had to deal with those issues with my stepson anyway). I understand my point of view is harsher than what a lot of people are comfortable with but all I can do is rely on my personal experiences and the experiences of those around me. Lax parenting and youthful poor judgements left me in some pretty sick and twisted situations when I was a child and unable to protect myself. As a result, I'll be on antidepressants for the rest of my life. Had even ONE of my parents taken a step back and thought about what they were doing, whether their choices were sound (maybe they weren't even capable, I don't know) maybe things could've been different. I'm not saying people need to always make perfect choices, but what the heck is wrong with correcting mistakes when you notice them? What's wrong with sitting down with one's husband or wife and saying, "Honey, let's see what we can do to make A, B, C better."

Cindie

[Chris_]

You hit on something there. Moms today don't back up the Dad. I see it all of the time. The Husband is just beat down and the wife rules the roost but there's this dysfunctional routine they seem to be stuck in. I blame the breakdown of the traditional family and the fact that a lot parents subscribe to a Liberal parenting style. They are more worried about damaging their child's self esteem than tanning their little behinds when they need it. Same crap that's ruining our public schools. This is why I beat my son daily whether he needs or not.

Yep! My husband's philosophy is "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" They believe it to this day. Besides, moms that dismiss the role of the father lose the ability to say, "wait til your father gets home!" There came a point in my sons lives when both towered over me enough that I had to practically jump to whack them up the side of the head (or hope they smarted off while sitting on the couch).

The really sad thing, kids raised on liberal ideology (and they get a double dose if their home life is lax as wel as their schooll) are getting is unearned self esteem and the kids know this. IMO it's almost abusive because what it does is take incentive, desire, and striving for goals just out of ones current reach. There's nothing to replace it with. Liberal adults have substituted "self-esteem" for personal pride in achieving a goal, accomplishing a task, or learning something one had been struggleing with.

Self-esteem is NOT a problem with children. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold has TONS of self esteem. Charles Manson has TONS of self esteem. Ted Bundy had TONS of self esteem. Hell, TiT has TONS of self esteem. I seriously doubt even democrat parents would want their kids to grow up to be anything like them (well with the possible exception of JoAnne98). What they were lacking was a conscience, self-discipline (which starts with parental discipline), humility, and a good work ethic. Granted, sometimes the conscience thing can't be taught...there ARE true sociopaths.

Liberals are an interesting subculture, however...they subscribe to this environmentalist, organic philosophy and then want to medicated themselves and often want drugs to do for their children what THEY should be doing as parents. Luckily many of these children raised in liberal households seem to be more conservative than their parents. But eventually someone has to be the adult in the relationship.

Cindie

Women aren't always the dismissers. Some "men" abrogate their responsibility as a father(and a husband) right out of the gate, even those that live in the same home as their children.

I find anymore this an argument one which is akin to what came first the chicken or the egg? Overbearing women or wimpy men...either way, BOTH occupy the heart of the problem.

I don't know, I pretty much knew my husband wasn't a wimp when I married him. Sometimes I suppose people are able to hide who they are SO thoroughly that one can be truly surprised to find out the person they married wasn't who they thought. But most of us can be reasonably sure who we're marrying (and consequently having children with) before walking down the aisle. Besides, I think it's much easier for a woman who's a controlling harpy bitch to pretend to be a sweet little thing than it is for a wimpy metrosexual nancy-boy pull off pretending to be a macho stud.

Cindie

Well, I congratulate you for being such a fine judge of character and for making such a good yardstick ie stereotype for us all to judge men and women by. I will be sure to remember this post when I consider the specific man I'm thinking of who is about 6'2", 250, athletic, and likes 'manly activities'. I'll go ask if he's got any hand lotion squirreled away that should have given the clue that he would turn out to be such an inconsistent parent and a neglectful spouse.   :lmao:

Come on, Cindie, lets face it...a lot of 20 something years old just aren't mature enough and/or don't have the familial guidance to discern small behavioral signs that can be big problems down the road and the men don't always come packaged to stand out like a sore thumb like your stereotype would imply. Trust me when I say if they go into their next relationships they will be far more careful when considering those little behavioral traits and lets face it they've got far more history to go on to look at if they weren't emotionally astute the first go round. I admire ladies like you and BEG who picked good quality men(it certainly makes like MUCH easier and less painful), but women who don't weren't always dumbasses who just overlooked big signs. Sometimes you dont' get to see the real man or woman until a real big test comes their way and they fall flat on their face, but how do you test for adversity from the beginning? HOw do you measure that if the person you meet is a complete stranger to you from the get go?  I'm genuinely curious...you should right a dating book for the less emotionally astute--but keep physical measures out--they usually aren't very accurate.

I think Cindie is speaking from her own personal experience. I don't presume to know what's in her head so she can clarify. I just don't think she meant anything personal Jty.

And if things go south in a marriage, it's not because you weren't emotionally astute in the beginning. People really do change and life's curveballs hit some people right upside the head and they don't ever get back up.

I'll share something personal: I was married to someone else before Mr. Belle. We were together almost nine years. Without going into a lot of detail, I can honestly say that we were great on paper but horrible in reality. I spent a long time beating myself up over my seemingly poor judge of character. It's a fruitless effort. Reader's Digest version: I no longer blame myself. I own my faults/flaws/bad decisions and I see his as well. If you had asked me years ago when I was going through my divorce if I would ever get over it, find new love, have a good relationship with my soon to be ex, I would have laughed in your face and then fell over from the shock of such a notion. All of those came to be. But it took time and a lot of painful personal growth. My ex is still who he is but he's also grown up and I'm quite proud of the man he is now. Don't get me wrong, I still know we were wrong for each other. I had to work with what I had at the time. And back then, it wasn't meant to be despite the painful attempts to work it out (and there were many). That shipped sailed so long ago. We have a great relationship. We share a son. We co-parent. I don't regret any of it. I'm pretty philosophical about it. You grow slowly into that.

I'm rambling here. I have no idea if my tangent sheds any light. But it kind of felt good to say it.  :-)

I'm sorry I hit a sore spot, Jty. I've known some 6' tall 200lbs. drag queens so height and weight have little to do with qualities I tend to look for in a man. Sure some 20 somethings don't have good judgement...some 40 somethings don't have good judgement. I have a friend who has the worst taste in men possible who is also one of the smartest, hardest working people I know. The problem is that her poor judgement doesn't just affect her, it affects her children. It's one thing when your poor choices only hurt you...it's entirely something else when those decisions hurt others who have absolutely no control over the situation. I'm not even necessarily talking about the 20 something who realizes she's married to a creep after they've had a couple of kids. Everyone makes mistakes and if she learns from them that will only benefit her and her children. Life is a crap shoot and certainly people can change for better or worse because of many different reasons. But some bad choices can be overcome with effort. While there are people who are just instinctually good parents, it's also a skill that can be learned. Patience can be learned. Self-discipline can be learned. And there comes a point in life if you're continually making the same mistakes over and over again, you need to take a step back and take a good hard look at where you are and where you want to be. This is especially true if you have children being drug along through all your near-disasters (please note, I don't mean you personally...I mean the collective you).

Marriage is hard work. Parenting is hard work. People get into ruts and develop habits that perpetuate resentment and bad feelings. And you do have to be willing to work to be successful at both. I didn't have good examples for marriages or parenting when I was growing up. What I did have was plenty of examples of what I didn't want...that can be beneficial as well. Granted, I was probably a little more gun shy than most girls my age...probably why I was attracted to bad boys...they were as gun shy as myself. And I've certainly made huge mistakes. Maybe I just got lucky but it sure felt like I took a good long look at my life and realized I didn't want to go down the same path as my parents. I certainly didn't want it for any future kids I might have (the irony of course is that my husband's first wife was the psycho bitch from hell and so I had to deal with those issues with my stepson anyway). I understand my point of view is harsher than what a lot of people are comfortable with but all I can do is rely on my personal experiences and the experiences of those around me. Lax parenting and youthful poor judgements left me in some pretty sick and twisted situations when I was a child and unable to protect myself. As a result, I'll be on antidepressants for the rest of my life. Had even ONE of my parents taken a step back and thought about what they were doing, whether their choices were sound (maybe they weren't even capable, I don't know) maybe things could've been different. I'm not saying people need to always make perfect choices, but what the heck is wrong with correcting mistakes when you notice them? What's wrong with sitting down with one's husband or wife and saying, "Honey, let's see what we can do to make A, B, C better."

Cindie

OMFG, CC has become "The View!"

[BEG]

Well, I congratulate you for being such a fine judge of character and for making such a good yardstick ie stereotype for us all to judge men and women by. I will be sure to remember this post when I consider the specific man I'm thinking of who is about 6'2", 250, athletic, and likes 'manly activities'. I'll go ask if he's got any hand lotion squirreled away that should have given the clue that he would turn out to be such an inconsistent parent and a neglectful spouse.   

Come on, Cindie, lets face it...a lot of 20 something years old just aren't mature enough and/or don't have the familial guidance to discern small behavioral signs that can be big problems down the road and the men don't always come packaged to stand out like a sore thumb like your stereotype would imply. Trust me when I say if they go into their next relationships they will be far more careful when considering those little behavioral traits and lets face it they've got far more history to go on to look at if they weren't emotionally astute the first go round. I admire ladies like you and BEG who picked good quality men(it certainly makes like MUCH easier and less painful), but women who don't weren't always dumbasses who just overlooked big signs. Sometimes you dont' get to see the real man or woman until a real big test comes their way and they fall flat on their face, but how do you test for adversity from the beginning? HOw do you measure that if the person you meet is a complete stranger to you from the get go?  I'm genuinely curious...you should right a dating book for the less emotionally astute--but keep physical measures out--they usually aren't very accurate.

I think Cindie is speaking from her own personal experience. I don't presume to know what's in her head so she can clarify. I just don't think she meant anything personal Jty.

And if things go south in a marriage, it's not because you weren't emotionally astute in the beginning. People really do change and life's curveballs hit some people right upside the head and they don't ever get back up.

I'll share something personal: I was married to someone else before Mr. Belle. We were together almost nine years. Without going into a lot of detail, I can honestly say that we were great on paper but horrible in reality. I spent a long time beating myself up over my seemingly poor judge of character. It's a fruitless effort. Reader's Digest version: I no longer blame myself. I own my faults/flaws/bad decisions and I see his as well. If you had asked me years ago when I was going through my divorce if I would ever get over it, find new love, have a good relationship with my soon to be ex, I would have laughed in your face and then fell over from the shock of such a notion. All of those came to be. But it took time and a lot of painful personal growth. My ex is still who he is but he's also grown up and I'm quite proud of the man he is now. Don't get me wrong, I still know we were wrong for each other. I had to work with what I had at the time. And back then, it wasn't meant to be despite the painful attempts to work it out (and there were many). That shipped sailed so long ago. We have a great relationship. We share a son. We co-parent. I don't regret any of it. I'm pretty philosophical about it. You grow slowly into that.

I'm rambling here. I have no idea if my tangent sheds any light. But it kind of felt good to say it. 

I'm sorry I hit a sore spot, Jty. I've known some 6' tall 200lbs. drag queens so height and weight have little to do with qualities I tend to look for in a man. Sure some 20 somethings don't have good judgement...some 40 somethings don't have good judgement. I have a friend who has the worst taste in men possible who is also one of the smartest, hardest working people I know. The problem is that her poor judgement doesn't just affect her, it affects her children. It's one thing when your poor choices only hurt you...it's entirely something else when those decisions hurt others who have absolutely no control over the situation. I'm not even necessarily talking about the 20 something who realizes she's married to a creep after they've had a couple of kids. Everyone makes mistakes and if she learns from them that will only benefit her and her children. Life is a crap shoot and certainly people can change for better or worse because of many different reasons. But some bad choices can be overcome with effort. While there are people who are just instinctually good parents, it's also a skill that can be learned. Patience can be learned. Self-discipline can be learned. And there comes a point in life if you're continually making the same mistakes over and over again, you need to take a step back and take a good hard look at where you are and where you want to be. This is especially true if you have children being drug along through all your near-disasters (please note, I don't mean you personally...I mean the collective you).

Marriage is hard work. Parenting is hard work. People get into ruts and develop habits that perpetuate resentment and bad feelings. And you do have to be willing to work to be successful at both. I didn't have good examples for marriages or parenting when I was growing up. What I did have was plenty of examples of what I didn't want...that can be beneficial as well. Granted, I was probably a little more gun shy than most girls my age...probably why I was attracted to bad boys...they were as gun shy as myself. And I've certainly made huge mistakes. Maybe I just got lucky but it sure felt like I took a good long look at my life and realized I didn't want to go down the same path as my parents. I certainly didn't want it for any future kids I might have (the irony of course is that my husband's first wife was the psycho bitch from hell and so I had to deal with those issues with my stepson anyway). I understand my point of view is harsher than what a lot of people are comfortable with but all I can do is rely on my personal experiences and the experiences of those around me. Lax parenting and youthful poor judgements left me in some pretty sick and twisted situations when I was a child and unable to protect myself. As a result, I'll be on antidepressants for the rest of my life. Had even ONE of my parents taken a step back and thought about what they were doing, whether their choices were sound (maybe they weren't even capable, I don't know) maybe things could've been different. I'm not saying people need to always make perfect choices, but what the heck is wrong with correcting mistakes when you notice them? What's wrong with sitting down with one's husband or wife and saying, "Honey, let's see what we can do to make A, B, C better."

Cindie

I guess I will add to your thoughts since I was brought into this by jty....

I had absolutely NO guidance when it came to how a husband/father should act.  My Dad was basically an alcoholic and absent father.  My step-dad was also an alcoholic and an ass as far as fathers go.  After he knocked me down and tried to choke me in the living room he finally stopped being an ass (I was in 10th grade at the time).  He did eventually learn somewhat but my Mom kept him on a short leash and wouldn't let him make too many decisions as far as parenting goes.  My mom and step-dad aren't the model as far as married people go either.  They argue all the time and sometimes I wonder if they even like each other.

When I met my husband (I had just turned 15), I wasn't thinking about if he would make a good father or if he would treat me right.  I just thought he was hot and I wanted to get in his pants.    We broke up on and off through out the 5 years we dated.  During those times I noticed how the other guys treated me and how he treated me.  I dated another guy for two years.  I basically chased this guy and when I got him he treated me like crap.  He wasn't verbally or physically abusive.  He just wasn't considerate, would say he would pick me up at 7:30 and not show up until 11:00 if at all.  I never came first, I felt like an after thought.  About a year into our relationship he started treating me right but by then I wondered if he would continue.  I had serious doubts at that point.

By that time Kevin started sniffing around again  .  Actually he never left, he was always there.  That is why I probably didn't want him.  If he was gone and acted like he didn't want me I would have wanted him back.  I broke up with the other guy and started dating Kevin again.  Immediately I knew it was right, I can't tell you why but I did.

Fast forward to today.  We aren't the same people we were when we got married, we both have grown a LOT.  We just happened to grow in the same direction, it could have just as easily been the opposite.  I must tell you that I give my husband 99% of the credit that we have done as well as we have relationship wise.  He makes me want to be a better person.  If he was an ass to me there is no doubt that I would be an ass right back as at times I don't have much self-control.  Especially if I'm pissed off.  I don't think a person can continue to treat their partner like crap and expect their relationship to work.  If both aren't on the same page it makes it impossible.

Jty, I lucked out.  I didn't know what I was doing when I got married, I was 20.  If, God forbid, I ever have to do it over again, I would know what I was doing now but still there are no guarantees.  You did the best you could, don't beat yourself up.   

[Texacon]

How in the hell did y'all get from talking about a lazy 19 year old to .... Oprah's Guide for picking 'Mr. Right'??   

KC