Author Topic: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...  (Read 24677 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2008, 07:40:57 PM »
You may not see a conflict FD (neither do I) but some people do. And that's fine. Chrisitanity varies on the matter and you will find people who don't believe the science at all. And you will find people who accept the science even when it seemingly contradicts scripture. We (everyone not just us) get into trouble when we point fingers and say "You're dead wrong!!!". I was just trying to make peace. :-)

I understand that, Belle darlin'.  But I have to draw the line where people want to replace science with faith.  It is bad public policy, it is bad for the USA, it reduces our ability to be competitive in the world and, if it gains any credence, it will allow the government to begin to favor a single religion.

Willful Ignorance is NOT a Conservative Value.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2008, 07:43:56 PM »
All the more so with Justice and Mercy. They simply do not exist. At least "love" can be measured with scans and hormone profiles.

The science of mathematics does not exist except as an abstract construct and yet it has been one of the most useful tools known to mankind.
Nonsense it is materially verifiable.

For example:

 :bigbird: + :bigbird: = :bigbird: :bigbird:

In fact, a mathematical abstraction that does have a material corrollary is pretty much useless. For example, of what use would E=MC^2 be if it were not testable with empirical study?

So simple children can grasp it.

Hm-m-m...

How telling you seem lost.

Quote
Similarly, justice and mercy do not exist except as abstract constructs and they have been some of the most useful tools known to mankind.
orly?

Explain to me why slavery and eugenics are "wrong" (whatever that means) in strictly scientific terms.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2008, 07:49:59 PM »
I understand that, Belle darlin'.  But I have to draw the line where people want to replace science with faith.  It is bad public policy, it is bad for the USA, it reduces our ability to be competitive in the world and, if it gains any credence, it will allow the government to begin to favor a single religion.

Willful Ignorance is NOT a Conservative Value.
I demonstrate the material facts behind the unction known as love, i.e. hormones, EEG's etc to which you offer no scientific rebuttal only your "philosophical" acquiesence and then you write THIS?

Your entire post is riddled with unscientific suppositions, as noted in bold. Please scientifically define "bad".
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2008, 07:53:53 PM »
I don't agree with those, but if you think so, then my philosophical reaction is to support your world view.
Yes, well, at least science is on my side.
I have yet to see any scientific definition of "Love" but things like physical attraction are, in fact, based in TToE.

But God gave us free will and brains and the ability to make our own decisions.  Thinking and feeling are just a few of His gifts. 
"Love" is a biochemical reaction. It's measurable.
No it isn't.  Lust is.

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That people feel love--or rather a biological unction to propagate--is as much a mystery as the opposable thumb: it just is, there is no intent behind it. You might as well be asking why the Roulette wheel landed on a particular space on a particular spin.
Again, you confuse lust (biochemical and reproduction oriented) with love (internally driven).  There are physical markers for Love -- the increased heartbeat, dilation of pupils, etc. -- but even a trained scientist cannot distinguish them from physiological.  IOW, what CAUSES and SUSATINS love will always be outside the realm of science and stay firmly in the realm of philosophy.

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To argue the existence of God-breathed evolution strikes me as an ever-interesting conundrum.

Tell me: How many species did God design to die to make way for man?

None.  The path from early primitive creatures to Man is a stochasticcontinuum.  How many of your ancestors died to make you?
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Is there a "better man" yet to evolve?
Not "better" but better adapted to his environment.  Certain vestigial elements such as the appendix, maybe even male nipples, etc. may dissapear over thenext million or so years.  Modern man gies back somewhere between 100,000 and 10,000 years -- an eyeblink.  Certainly our spines will change around as the rest of evolution catches up with where we are now.

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Whence cometh this "freewill" when so many have died without it, to be saved or damned of their own volition?
That is a philosophical question, not an evolutionary question. It is certainly interesting, scientifically, when man became Self-aware and began to contemplate his place in the UNniverse.

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Is salvation by mutation and adaptation?
No, evolution is.

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I dare say I can find no sin in Conquistadors baptizing pagan infants only to dash their heads against the stones; survival of the fittest and all. Nature is quite blood-soaked. I'm curious as to where in the spiritual-evolutionary scale we can claim, "savage beast and thus no further".
More philosophy. There is certainly an atavistic streak that we must use our better natures to tame.

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I find the OT/NT traditions to be far more romantic: man perfect in nature (as opposed to moving "up"), fallen and inviting death into the world only to be saved by a God of Grace. If you're going to believe in a god believe in that one, but please don't bastardize evolutionary theory and its implications over some philosophical embarrassment you suffer from.
I have no idea what you mean.  I have not posited any implications of TToE.  I merely note that it is a scientific theory and is subject to scientific disciplines as opposed to religious ones.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2008, 07:56:02 PM »
I understand that, Belle darlin'.  But I have to draw the line where people want to replace science with faith.  It is bad public policy, it is bad for the USA, it reduces our ability to be competitive in the world and, if it gains any credence, it will allow the government to begin to favor a single religion.

Willful Ignorance is NOT a Conservative Value.
I demonstrate the material facts behind the unction known as love, i.e. hormones, EEG's etc to which you offer no scientific rebuttal only your "philosophical" acquiesence and then you write THIS?

Your entire post is riddled with unscientific suppositions, as noted in bold. Please scientifically define "bad".


Huh? 

By "bad" public policy I mean that TToE is based in science. Conflating faith and science means we will have a very real back seat in the Life Sciences and will lose our now narrowing margin in these fields.

 If you want to try to shove philosophy into the science realm, be my guest.

I have been crystal clear in what does and doesn't belong in TToE.  ID does not.  The downstream implications of Man having intelligence and self-awareness I leave to experts in other fields.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2008, 08:02:05 PM »
All the more so with Justice and Mercy. They simply do not exist. At least "love" can be measured with scans and hormone profiles.

The science of mathematics does not exist except as an abstract construct and yet it has been one of the most useful tools known to mankind.
Nonsense it is materially verifiable.

For example:

 :bigbird: + :bigbird: = :bigbird: :bigbird:

In fact, a mathematical abstraction that does have a material corrollary is pretty much useless. For example, of what use would E=MC^2 be if it were not testable with empirical study?

So simple children can grasp it.

Hm-m-m...

How telling you seem lost.

Quote
Similarly, justice and mercy do not exist except as abstract constructs and they have been some of the most useful tools known to mankind.
orly?

Explain to me why slavery and eugenics are "wrong" (whatever that means) in strictly scientific terms.

This whole "reverse science" thing isn't really accomplishing what you want it to.  It might with TNO but you know it won't with me.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2008, 08:05:34 PM »
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But I have to draw the line where people want to replace science with faith.  It is bad public policy, it is bad for the USA, it reduces our ability to be competitive in the world and, if it gains any credence, it will allow the government to begin to favor a single religion.

The Jesuits would find this bit of nonsense as laughable as I do.  There have been many notable Jesuit Scientists through history and they continue research today.

Yet somehow their religious beliefs don't get in the way of their studies.
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The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2008, 08:06:49 PM »
Quote
But I have to draw the line where people want to replace science with faith.  It is bad public policy, it is bad for the USA, it reduces our ability to be competitive in the world and, if it gains any credence, it will allow the government to begin to favor a single religion.

The Jesuits would find this bit of nonsense as laughable as I do.  There have been many notable Jesuit Scientists through history and they continue research today.
Nor do the Jesuits inject God into TToE. And they are more religious scholars than science scholars.

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Yet somehow their religious beliefs don't get in the way of their studies.
Nor do mine.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2008, 08:26:48 PM »
So much protest.

So little empirical basis.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2008, 08:27:39 PM »
So much protest.

So little empirical basis.
From whom?
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2008, 08:36:37 PM »
Nonsense it is materially verifiable.

For example:

 :bigbird: + :bigbird: = :bigbird: :bigbird:


The means we use to prove theorems have no bearing on the fact that numbers and mathematics exist only as constructs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 08:41:37 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline Lauri

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2008, 09:15:02 PM »
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Whereas the study of evolution is science.

Let me know when they find proof of the missing link.  You know that "creature" that bridges the gap between ape and human.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardipithecus

I don't view as a valid source, since just aobut anyone can to an edit there.

But your link to it did prompt me to google Ardipithecus.

I found a few site worthy of checking into a bit more...  But at a surface glance, I am not prepared to declare it the missing link.

But thanks for the heads up.

If your looking for the actual missing link, your going to wait a long time buddy.  We may never find fossil remains of the actual species that made the jump from ape to hominid.  But Ardipithecus is the closest thing found so far.  While maintaining most of the charecteristics of apes, it shows sides of bipedalism, which is the biggest differentiator between apes and hominids.


so then, why are there still apes? why didnt all of the apes evolve into us thousands of [millions of] years ago?

i find it somewhat absurd that ove time an ape morphed into my species, yet there are still plenty of apes left that didnt...

Offline Lauri

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2008, 09:16:08 PM »
I have a way to settle this.  Everyone for and against (and those of us who have no idea yet, like me), go see the movie...then come back and discuss it. 

i think youre on to something!  [probably the entire reason for the movie being made] :-)



Offline rich_t

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2008, 09:18:04 PM »
I will iterate:

Good grief, we have museums chock full of fossils dating back millions of years.

If there was indeed this missing link, there would have had to be millions of them in existence at one time in order for the hominids to continue to evolve into Homo Sapien.

So were are their fossils?

There should be miilions of them out there for the finding.

So where are they?


There's about 120,000 of them posting away madly at DU...

H5+

good one.   :cheersmate:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2008, 09:23:43 PM »
Quote
Whereas the study of evolution is science.

Let me know when they find proof of the missing link.  You know that "creature" that bridges the gap between ape and human.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardipithecus

I don't view as a valid source, since just aobut anyone can to an edit there.

But your link to it did prompt me to google Ardipithecus.

I found a few site worthy of checking into a bit more...  But at a surface glance, I am not prepared to declare it the missing link.

But thanks for the heads up.

If your looking for the actual missing link, your going to wait a long time buddy.  We may never find fossil remains of the actual species that made the jump from ape to hominid.  But Ardipithecus is the closest thing found so far.  While maintaining most of the charecteristics of apes, it shows sides of bipedalism, which is the biggest differentiator between apes and hominids.


so then, why are there still apes? why didnt all of the apes evolve into us thousands of [millions of] years ago?

i find it somewhat absurd that ove time an ape morphed into my species, yet there are still plenty of apes left that didnt...

*sigh*

Humans and other apes are descended from a common ancestor whose population split to become two (and more) lineages. The question is rather like asking, "If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?"
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Offline Lauri

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2008, 09:25:24 PM »
Quote
Whereas the study of evolution is science.

Let me know when they find proof of the missing link.  You know that "creature" that bridges the gap between ape and human.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardipithecus

I don't view as a valid source, since just aobut anyone can to an edit there.

But your link to it did prompt me to google Ardipithecus.

I found a few site worthy of checking into a bit more...  But at a surface glance, I am not prepared to declare it the missing link.

But thanks for the heads up.

If your looking for the actual missing link, your going to wait a long time buddy.  We may never find fossil remains of the actual species that made the jump from ape to hominid.  But Ardipithecus is the closest thing found so far.  While maintaining most of the charecteristics of apes, it shows sides of bipedalism, which is the biggest differentiator between apes and hominids.


so then, why are there still apes? why didnt all of the apes evolve into us thousands of [millions of] years ago?

i find it somewhat absurd that ove time an ape morphed into my species, yet there are still plenty of apes left that didnt...

*sigh*

Humans and other apes are descended from a common ancestor whose population split to become two (and more) lineages. The question is rather like asking, "If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?"



*sigh* right back at ya  :whatever:

so you are now equating two separate species (apes and humans) with several different cultures within the same species(Americans, Australians and Europeans) ...?

are you a college kid still?  :popcorn:

« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 09:31:03 PM by Lauri »

Offline Uhhuh35

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2008, 09:27:59 PM »
TNO has 4025 Bitch Slaps! Incredible!
 :rotf:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2008, 09:32:06 PM »

*sigh* right back at ya  :whatever:

so you are now equating two separate species with several different cultures within the same species?

are you a college kid still?  :popcorn:
*sigh* *sigh*

No. But the analogy holds.  There are multiple branches from a common lineage.  Your question may more closely be analogous to descendants of red haired people who then become blond, brunette, etc.  You could then ask "why are there red haired people still?"

Evolution is a stochastic process.  As a result, different branches will evolve at different rates depending on different circumstances.  I guarantee you the modern gorilla no more resembles its ancient ancestor than we do.  The "apes" of millions of years ago represent a common lineage, not an unchanging species.

And I am probably older than your parents.  In fact, I *knew* some of those common ancestors.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2008, 09:35:58 PM »
I don't agree with those, but if you think so, then my philosophical reaction is to support your world view.
Yes, well, at least science is on my side.

I have a tendancy to agree with your statements above.
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Offline Lauri

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2008, 10:16:19 PM »

*sigh* right back at ya  :whatever:

so you are now equating two separate species with several different cultures within the same species?

are you a college kid still?  :popcorn:
*sigh* *sigh*

No. But the analogy holds.  There are multiple branches from a common lineage.  Your question may more closely be analogous to descendants of red haired people who then become blond, brunette, etc.  You could then ask "why are there red haired people still?"

Evolution is a stochastic process.  As a result, different branches will evolve at different rates depending on different circumstances.  I guarantee you the modern gorilla no more resembles its ancient ancestor than we do.  The "apes" of millions of years ago represent a common lineage, not an unchanging species.

And I am probably older than your parents.  In fact, I *knew* some of those common ancestors.



so, the color of hair of a bunch of humans is analogous to two separate species being linked together way back thousands of years ago?

and you cant guarantee me *anything* about modern gorillas no more resembling anything of their ancestors cause... well, science doesnt go back that far, now does it? or are you going to tell us now that all of history is written down somewhere?

as for where this discussion started, there are untold records and books about Jesus and his part in mankind's history. heck, there are even *gasp* artifacts that date back to those times. as someone already stated some pages back, science relies mostly on theories and those are proven and disproven over and over again.. depending on who has the purse strings.

the fact that separate and independant theories and faiths cannot coincide inside your mind at once is telling... it seems the most vehement deniers of God are fairly close minded about many things in this life, and for that, I feel bad for ya. but I'm not here to debate whether God is science or not; I could care less what a person of science tells me about their 'facts' since I know that fashion or time will render that person's facts obsolete and they will be onto their next big idea..

not even 50 years ago, 'scientists' told doctors ,who told the rest of us, that smoking was an ideal way to keep our waistes slim. now how exactly did that turn out again?

right now a whole of 'scientists' believe that man made global warming will do humanity a bunch of damage in ten years or so.. and you wont count the majority of Americans as agreeing with it at all.

in fact, the I tend to think that people in general view modern day scientists as a nuisance who find answers to our problems only for the right amount of money..

Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #145 on: April 22, 2008, 10:35:44 PM »
not even 50 years ago, 'scientists' told doctors ,who told the rest of us, that smoking was an ideal way to keep our waistes slim. now how exactly did that turn out again?

Scientific misconceptions about smoking were cleared up by guess what... science. We don't give up on science just because it doesn't serve us well all the time.

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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #146 on: April 22, 2008, 10:40:21 PM »
TNO has 4025 Bitch Slaps! Incredible!
 :rotf:

Now if only I could find a way to make money by getting bitch slapped.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #147 on: April 22, 2008, 10:43:13 PM »

so, the color of hair of a bunch of humans is analogous to two separate species being linked together way back thousands of years ago?
Yes.  And it is millions, not thousands.

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and you cant guarantee me *anything* about modern gorillas no more resembling anything of their ancestors cause... well, science doesnt go back that far, now does it? or are you going to tell us now that all of history is written down somewhere?
Yes -- the fossil record is pretty complete, especially in the last few million years.  The record is, indeed, "written down."

Quote
as for where this discussion started, there are untold records and books about Jesus and his part in mankind's history. heck, there are even *gasp* artifacts that date back to those times. as someone already stated some pages back, science relies mostly on theories and those are proven and disproven over and over again.. depending on who has the purse strings.
The Bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus died.  Imagine writing about George Washington right now with zero written records.  But I accept the Bible as the Word of God on theology, with interesting historical notes.

And I see I must once again educate someone.  I really wish you would READ the upstream posts before popping off.  A Scientific Theory is the HIGHEST form of organization in the scientific world.  Lay people think that there is a hierarchy that goes something like Guess>Hypothesis>Theory>Fact.  That is completely incorrect.  A theory is a general explanation of a large number of interrelated data and phenomena.


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the fact that separate and independant theories and faiths cannot coincide inside your mind at once is telling... it seems the most vehement deniers of God are fairly close minded about many things in this life, and for that, I feel bad for ya. but I'm not here to debate whether God is science or not; I could care less what a person of science tells me about their 'facts' since I know that fashion or time will render that person's facts obsolete and they will be onto their next big idea..
Did you read my posts?  I said there is no conflict within me between faith and science.  And repudiation of facts and the scientific method pretty much describe Luddism.


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not even 50 years ago, 'scientists' told doctors ,who told the rest of us, that smoking was an ideal way to keep our waistes slim. now how exactly did that turn out again?

But TToE has been developed over 150 years and has been investigated by millions of scientists and supported by billions of artifacts.  And FWIIW, smoking does promote thinness by supressing appetite.  It kills you but you die thin.


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right now a whole of 'scientists' believe that man made global warming will do humanity a bunch of damage in ten years or so.. and you wont count the majority of Americans as agreeing with it at all.

Yes, but they are merely substituting one physical model for another.  No scientist substitutes "a miracle happened here" for even a hypothesis.  Which is what AGW is.  It isn't even a theory and it is an infant "science."


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in fact, the I tend to think that people in general view modern day scientists as a nuisance who find answers to our problems only for the right amount of money..

So I would suggest you not take drugs such as Metformin,  Lipitor, ACE inhibitors, antibiotics, etc. etc. etc.  They were all formulated by these nuisances and -- horror of horrors -- could never have been developed in the absence of TToE.  Oh and cancel your next Md appointment.  He or she is also on the take.

I am not saying some scientists are for sale -- almost all of the AGW crowd are.  But to suggest that the millions of Life Scientists who understand and apply TToE are on the take is way beyond incredulity.



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Offline Lauri

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2008, 10:46:29 PM »
not even 50 years ago, 'scientists' told doctors ,who told the rest of us, that smoking was an ideal way to keep our waistes slim. now how exactly did that turn out again?

Scientific misconceptions about smoking were cleared up by guess what... science. We don't give up on science just because it doesn't serve us well all the time.




science is wrong so often that most thinking people dont give it much credence any longer.

we know about 'theories' and the 'best educated guesses' but by and large, science causes more problems than it solves.

for instance, and this is one i know you will hate TNO, when science discovers that gay gene, guess what will happen?

Offline djones520

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Re: Richard Nixon's speech writer makes a stupid movie...
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2008, 10:52:05 PM »
not even 50 years ago, 'scientists' told doctors ,who told the rest of us, that smoking was an ideal way to keep our waistes slim. now how exactly did that turn out again?

Scientific misconceptions about smoking were cleared up by guess what... science. We don't give up on science just because it doesn't serve us well all the time.




science is wrong so often that most thinking people dont give it much credence any longer.

we know about 'theories' and the 'best educated guesses' but by and large, science causes more problems than it solves.

for instance, and this is one i know you will hate TNO, when science discovers that gay gene, guess what will happen?

Who is this "most" that your talking about?  Are they avoiding hospitals?  Are they not shopping and using simple math?  Are they not driving their cars anywhere?  Are they not watching their TV's?  Are they not being protected day and night by the most SCIENTIFICALLY advanced military force on this planet?
"Chuck Norris once had sex in an 18 wheeler. Some of his semen dripped onto the engine. We now call that truck Optimus Prime."