Should same-sex marriage be legal?

[TVDOC]

I would just like to point out...

People who have total sex changes - man to woman, woman to man....do get married...into a heterosexual union. Difficult to do, because of having to show birth certificates, but it has happened.

Assuming that set of circumstances, I'd likely have no problem with it, however, what I've seen of gender reassignment surgery yields considerably less that what would be considered a "functional" sex change.

Another thing to think about....

Just what is "normal" male and "normal" female with regards to a marital relationship?

Is a marriage consummated if one of the two individuals cannot consummate the marriage?

If a woman marries a man who is paralyzed from the mid-chest down, and is physically unable to have sex, the marriage is never consummated....is this a "normal" marriage? Is it a "real" marriage if not consummated?

What about a hetero couple, the woman is a soldier, severely wounded in the abdomen, has her ovaries and uterus removed in order to survive? Is she still a woman? In many cultures, she would not be. How is she now different from a transgender who has gone from man to woman? The plumbing is now the same, the boobs are probably better on the transgender, both have a vagina but no baby making parts. Essentially the injured woman and the transgender are the same by outward physical appearance, and similar internally...but the chromosomes are still different. They can both still have sexual relations.

It used to be grounds for annulment if a marriage wasn't consummated. It probably still is, though annulment has become more available under differing circumstances.

If one insists on using "normal" in describing marriage....it will only create more issues. What is defined as "normal" to one couple, may not be "normal" to another.

Using "normal" to describe marriage is not going to work.  

"Normal", to me at least, would be defined as the gender to which you were born......discounting disabilities occurring beyond that point.  I'm not claiming that procreation is the intended and primary purpose of "marriage", The gender appropriate ability to do so IS.

Regarding the bolded part, the only problem with using normal is establishing the limits......society already has for the most part.  Seems that the homosexuals are the only ones having problems with that definition.

doc

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

You have done a fine job debating your position in this thread.   Historically this topic usually turns to a heated and quite ugly one.   This thread was enjoyable to read on both sides of the issue. 

H5.

Agreed.

If he were a ptarmigan he'd almost be tolerable.

Almost.

[TVDOC]

C'mon, really?   This old canard has never, and will never deserve acknowledgement.

Only in your somewhat warped worldview......

Well, if you find the comparison so offensive, I can only surmise you must be completely ignorant of all the persecution that homosexuals have had to experience throughout history...  yea, sure - in the US, blacks take the prize for the being the most severe victims of sustained persecution - but fact is, gays havent had it easy either.  Hell, in the early US, you could be put to death for being gay.  And they sometimes were.  Our posture towards homosexuals used to be not entirely unlike that of the the Islamic fundamentalist nations.

In the early US you could be put to death for stealing cattle as well......my heart fails to bleed........

doc

[Ballygrl]

Well, if you find the comparison so offensive, I can only surmise you must be completely ignorant of all the persecution that homosexuals have had to experience throughout history...  yea, sure - in the US, blacks take the prize for the being the most severe victims of sustained persecution - but fact is, gays havent had it easy either.  Hell, in the early US, you could be put to death for being gay.  And they sometimes were.  Our posture towards homosexuals used to be not entirely unlike that of the the Islamic fundamentalist nations.

What group hasn't had it hard? we've evolved very well I think, and if there are problems in the black community that's strictly their own fault. As for gay people? compare how they're treated here and in Iran.

[seahorse513]

A distinction without a difference - marriage is a right, driving is a right, to live and pursue happiness is a right.

No driving is not a "right" , it is a privilege. Marriage is a privliege between two people(prefebly man and woman).

For the sake of argument a civil union is also a privilege.
If you were to look at the Bill of Rights, I don't think driving, marital  or civil unions are on that list.

If you feel these are rights, it is a matter of your personal wishful thinking.

[Attero Dominatus]

A distinction without a difference - marriage is a right, driving is a right, to live and pursue happiness is a right.

Marriage requires the mutual consent of the two people involved, and so is not a right. Driving is a privilage.

[Boudicca]

I agree.

I knew if I looked long enough I could fit into a persecuted minority category outside of the generic female one.
I did read an article years ago about how we lefties die of accidents more often, due to stuff being tailor made for righties.  My high school ROTC rifle team coach made me learn how to shoot righthanded since in the '70's no one seemed to be big on making stuff to fit lefties.  To this day, I shoot righthanded and do everything else lefthanded.  Hubby writes lefthanded, but does everything else righthanded.  Both of our kids are righthanders and looks like the grandson will be the same.  Thank goodness we didn't pass the aberration on to our progency.

[IassaFTots]

I knew if I looked long enough I could fit into a persecuted minority category outside of the generic female one.
I did read an article years ago about how we lefties die of accidents more often, due to stuff being tailor made for righties.  My high school ROTC rifle team coach made me learn how to shoot righthanded since in the '70's no one seemed to be big on making stuff to fit lefties.  To this day, I shoot righthanded and do everything else lefthanded.  Hubby writes lefthanded, but does everything else righthanded.  Both of our kids are righthanders and looks like the grandson will be the same.  Thank goodness we didn't pass the aberration on to our progency.

I shoot lefthanded, and use a knife and scissors with my right hand. 

I, too, bear the aberration of south paw. 

[Thor]

I knew if I looked long enough I could fit into a persecuted minority category outside of the generic female one.
I did read an article years ago about how we lefties die of accidents more often, due to stuff being tailor made for righties.  My high school ROTC rifle team coach made me learn how to shoot righthanded since in the '70's no one seemed to be big on making stuff to fit lefties.  To this day, I shoot righthanded and do everything else lefthanded.  Hubby writes lefthanded, but does everything else righthanded.  Both of our kids are righthanders and looks like the grandson will be the same.  Thank goodness we didn't pass the aberration on to our progency.

I don't know of any actual military rifles (issued by the military) that are designed for lefties. There ARE rifles and handguns that are designed for lefties, though, at least nowadays.

[Eupher]

I don't know of any actual military rifles (issued by the military) that are designed for lefties. There ARE rifles and handguns that are designed for lefties, though, at least nowadays.

You lefthanded weirdoes, aberrations all, who shoot lefthanded oughta know that the M16A1 and -A2 offered a Left-Handed Firing Adapter that you'd insert between the carrying handle and the ejection port.   

You weirdoes thought it was great, and it worked fine! All those targets died!

 

[Boudicca]

I don't know of any actual military rifles (issued by the military) that are designed for lefties. There ARE rifles and handguns that are designed for lefties, though, at least nowadays.

I went to high school 1972-76 and then college 76-79, all the time a member of the rifle team and don't remember ever running across rifles for left handers.  Maybe things have changed though.  Left AD in 1985, still no weapons designed for lefties...hubby didn't leave until 2007 but since he shoots right handed he probably wouldn't have noticed if any leftie specific guns came out in the military.
Practically speaking, when you have an enormous machine/organization such as the Armed Forces, it would be counterproductive to design weapons which could only be comfortably used by about one-tenth of the population.  I think my old rifle team coach had it right years ago when he insisted I be the one to conform to the mean average.

[Boudicca]

I shoot lefthanded, and use a knife and scissors with my right hand. 

I, too, bear the aberration of south paw. 

Oh, the shame!

[Boudicca]

You lefthanded weirdoes, aberrations all, who shoot lefthanded oughta know that the M16A1 and -A2 offered a Left-Handed Firing Adapter that you'd insert between the carrying handle and the ejection port.   

You weirdoes thought it was great, and it worked fine! All those targets died!

 

LOL, I shoulda read your post before responding to Thor's.  Still, who are you calling a lefthanded weirdo, dude?  I shoot right handed.

[Thor]

I went to high school 1972-76 and then college 76-79, all the time a member of the rifle team and don't remember ever running across rifles for left handers.  Maybe things have changed though.  Left AD in 1985, still no weapons designed for lefties...hubby didn't leave until 2007 but since he shoots right handed he probably wouldn't have noticed if any leftie specific guns came out in the military.
Practically speaking, when you have an enormous machine/organization such as the Armed Forces, it would be counterproductive to design weapons which could only be comfortably used by about one-tenth of the population.  I think my old rifle team coach had it right years ago when he insisted I be the one to conform to the mean average.

We're pretty much the same age, but I decided against college at the time and went right into the Navy after graduation. I graduated a year early, so I was class of 75. In hindsight, I wished I had attended college, but people weren't too savvy about Social Security benefits back then. My mom passed in July 75, so I would have been eligible for benefits through 23 had I been in college. Lessons learned through the school of hard knocks. (I had been accepted to Texas A&M)

[Eupher]

LOL, I shoulda read your post before responding to Thor's.  Still, who are you calling a lefthanded weirdo, dude?  I shoot right handed.

Yeah, but you're still somehow....tainted. 




 

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Yeah, but you're still somehow....tainted.   

[insert joke about Boudicca's taint here]

[debk]

Assuming that set of circumstances, I'd likely have no problem with it, however, what I've seen of gender reassignment surgery yields considerably less that what would be considered a "functional" sex change.

doc

Not trying to get into an argument with you...

Regarding "what you have seen of gender reassignment"...I don't think you are a medical doctor, are you? I also don't think you are a psychiatrist?

Do you know anyone personally who has had gender reassignment and been told they don't have function?
Or is your statement based on what you have read?

My ex did his general surgery residency at UVA in the late '70's. At that time, UVA was one of the top medical centers in the United States doing gender reassignment surgeries. He participated in those surgeries doing general surgery, plastics, and urology. UVA was pretty successful at creating functioning sexual "parts"...which was why some part of the reassignment surgery was being done on almost a weekly at that time. I was a bi-weekly volunteer at the hospital on the surgery floors. Volunteers were not to go into the rooms of someone who was having reassignment surgery. There was almost always at least one room blocked off.

[Thor]

[insert joke about Boudicca's taint here]

 

[LC EFA]

I knew if I looked long enough I could fit into a persecuted minority category outside of the generic female one.
I did read an article years ago about how we lefties die of accidents more often, due to stuff being tailor made for righties.  My high school ROTC rifle team coach made me learn how to shoot righthanded since in the '70's no one seemed to be big on making stuff to fit lefties.  To this day, I shoot righthanded and do everything else lefthanded.  Hubby writes lefthanded, but does everything else righthanded.  Both of our kids are righthanders and looks like the grandson will be the same.  Thank goodness we didn't pass the aberration on to our progency.

When I was learning to shoot - I automatically picked up a weapon and shouldered it to the left. Suffered from a bad case of CHS. Switched to right handed use and was able to put lead on meat.

Everything else is still done left handed.

[TVDOC]

Not trying to get into an argument with you...

Embrace it Deb.....you've been spoiling for a fight with me for months.....not that you'll get one, but it is amusing to watch

Regarding "what you have seen of gender reassignment"...I don't think you are a medical doctor, are you? I also don't think you are a psychiatrist?

Nor have I ever claimed to be either......however, you have absolutely no idea of who or what I know, what I do or study, or what I'm interested in.  Nor do you know really anything else about what I am except what I chose to let you know.

Do you know anyone personally who has had gender reassignment and been told they don't have function?
Or is your statement based on what you have read?

Yes I do......several actually......

My ex did his general surgery residency at UVA in the late '70's. At that time, UVA was one of the top medical centers in the United States doing gender reassignment surgeries. He participated in those surgeries doing general surgery, plastics, and urology. UVA was pretty successful at creating functioning sexual "parts"...which was why some part of the reassignment surgery was being done on almost a weekly at that time. I was a bi-weekly volunteer at the hospital on the surgery floors. Volunteers were not to go into the rooms of someone who was having reassignment surgery. There was almost always at least one room blocked off.

Wonderful......however, based on what you've revealed....you are a realtor.......not exactly what I'd refer to as a credible source, were I actually looking to find one......

I'll let you know if I ever need to buy a house in Tennessee.......or perhaps not.......

Just as a reminder, the topic is "Should gay marriage be legal".......

doc

[Boudicca]

[insert joke about Boudicca's taint here]

Hmm, well I did have fish for dinner last night.

I know, I know, this isn't about anything other than gay marriage.  Where in the hell is the little shithead who started this convo and then bailed?

[Attero Dominatus]

Where in the hell is the little shithead who started this convo and then bailed?

It was last active four days ago. If it has not replied by now, I do not think it will come back.

[seahorse513]

so can we conclude that gay marriage not be legalized, because marriage is between a man and a woman(reproductive organ functions notwithstanding)?

[Eupher]

so can we conclude that gay marriage not be legalized, because marriage is between a man and a woman(reproductive organ functions notwithstanding)?

Works for me. It's about time for another one of wilbur's hiatuses anyway.

[Boudicca]

It was last active four days ago. If it has not replied by now, I do not think it will come back.

I really can't stand people who post and run.