Author Topic: Can someone please explain this to me?  (Read 5192 times)

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Offline DixieBelle

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Can someone please explain this to me?
« on: March 26, 2008, 02:59:04 PM »
Nothing spurred this on. It's just something I've been mulling over for some time now. What's with all of the pathological and sometimes irrational hatred of Israel? Seriously, I don't get it. "Neo-con" gets thrown around so much these days and I really believe half of the people who use it as an insult don't even understand it's meaning. I have noticed this not only online but in real life.

Personally, I don't see what the problem is with Israel. It's a country. But it seems to be a conveinent scapegoat for all of America's ills. I get sick and tired of hearing people say "Bush's neocon this and that..." I've had no fewer than three people say something along those lines in face to face conversations. It's not coming from rabid liberals either. It's like a sickness has taken hold and formerly (assumed to be) rational folks start using the broad brush to criticize whatever U.S. policy is being reported in the media.

Color me a fool or babe in the woods if you must, I just don't get it. Yes, I know my history and I get why people have chosen sides in the Jew/Arab conflict...I just don't get the hate and broad brushing from normal, everyday people who have probably never even encountered an Israeli much less had cause to hate a country so much.

I understand frustration with U.S. policy. I certainly have my share of gripes and complaints. But the armchair quarterbacking is a bit much for me these days. Not to mention the fact that withdrawing all U.S. support would set off a series of unintended consequences.

What's wrong with people? I don't get......

And I really think that if the hatred and energy expended towards "the joooooooooos!" were ever channeled to illegal immigration, it would resolve itself in no time at all.

Okay, thank you for indulging Dixie's brain droppings today.  :-)

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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 03:15:23 PM »
I never associated "Neocon" with Israel support.  I think it means a Big Government "conservative," and features growing the deficit, growing government, subsidies for failing business and complicity in Illegal Immigration.  The only "con" part is the desire for lower taxes, which is in conflict with the rest except the growing defecit.

But that is just me.
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 03:23:44 PM »
Well me either but it certainly gets thrown around a lot when talking about being pro-Israel. But to me it means: advocating a strong foreign policy that doesn't bow to U.N. approval before acting (among other things). At least that's always been my take. The word "neocon" is old and has been adopted by many factions and used as both a compliment and insult. But yes, I do see lots of people equating it with pro-Israel beliefs.
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Forget change, bring back common sense.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 04:00:15 PM »
I never associated "Neocon" with Israel support.  I think it means a Big Government "conservative," and features growing the deficit, growing government, subsidies for failing business and complicity in Illegal Immigration.  The only "con" part is the desire for lower taxes, which is in conflict with the rest except the growing defecit.

But that is just me.


The modern interpretation of "neocon" comes from a group of liberal/centrist politically active Jews (in the late 80's and 90's) that were/are supporters of Israel, and generally hawkish on the application of military force as an instrument of US foreign policy......they found a home in the republican party when the democrats fell under the control of the anti-war crowd....

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 04:57:40 PM »
I never associated "Neocon" with Israel support.  I think it means a Big Government "conservative," and features growing the deficit, growing government, subsidies for failing business and complicity in Illegal Immigration.  The only "con" part is the desire for lower taxes, which is in conflict with the rest except the growing defecit.

But that is just me.


The modern interpretation of "neocon" comes from a group of liberal/centrist politically active Jews (in the late 80's and 90's) that were/are supporters of Israel, and generally hawkish on the application of military force as an instrument of US foreign policy......they found a home in the republican party when the democrats fell under the control of the anti-war crowd....

doc
Well, you learn something every day.  But I think my definition is closer to what is meant when neocon is used as an epithet.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 05:19:48 PM »
I think the reason that libs have a deep hatred for Israel has several explanations.

In no particular order..

First is they associate it with religion and the God of the Bible,this alone creates a visceral hatred among many.

Next is that Israel has a great sense of national pride which is something that works against libs ideals for global socialism.

Israel has never backed down from its enemies and is more then willing to defend itself which again is antagonistic to libs pacifism about defending and pursuing the cause of freedom.

Israel has a representative,elected government which means that" unsophisticated" voters may "ignorantly" choose officials that don`t agree with socialism.

Israel is capitalist system.

Israel more or less stands alone in the mideast and they consider its existence a destabilizing force which prevents libs from making corrupt oil deals with tyrants (like the French did).
They believe our support of Israel uses monies which they want to be spent on socialist programs here,foolishly thinking that the tyrants in the mideast can be trusted.

Israel is much like the USA and they hate America too.

Probably many more reasons besides those.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 05:21:23 PM by Carl »

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 06:01:58 PM »
The whole Israel thing is quite weird on both sides of our political spectrum.

On the right, there are plenty of people who support it for purely religious reasons which have essentially nothing to do with realpolitik or the rational relations and proper distance to keep with an ally, who seem to be unable to distinguish between Israeli national goals and what would best serve purely American interests...and then there are Israel-hating nutcases like Gator.

On the Left, you'd think the fact that it is a modern pseudo-European Socialist state with the full panoply of big labor, expensive social programs, and state bounty ought to count for something, but mostly it doesn't seem to stack up against the fact that they are an ecclesiastical state with a lot of the trappings of a modern secular one.

The way the Cold War developed, they became an ally, and that's the situation we inherit.  We are kind of in too deep to abandon that, absent them pulling some totally crazy BS that woud piss us off worse than whomever it was intended to be directed at.  Not that we haven't sold out historical allies like Taiwan before, but short of the Israelis dumping a surprise first-stirke nuke on someone, it's kind of hard to see such a turn of the tide on Israel for a long time out yet.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 01:08:13 PM »
Both DAT and Carl raise some valid points.  American conservative support for Israel falls into two distinct categories.....Christian conservatives support Israel because biblical prophesy demands it (plus its the site of the holiest places in the faith) , and secular conservatives see Israel as the only friendly bastion of democracy in a largely hostile area that controls a resource that is vital to the stability of the world's economy.

Liberals are a different story entirely.  As DAT stated, Israel is a socialist state in the model of most of western Europe, and liberals should love this (but they don't).  Lately, Israel's government has drifted more and more to the left, and the current government has become downright pacifist compared to a decade ago (liberals should love that as well....but they don't).  For reasons that will likely always remain a mystery to me, the VAST majority of Jewish Americans that comprise a significant block of Israel's support in the US are very liberal.  Therefore, I can only guess that the disdain for Israel from the left in America is boiled down to the following issues........

.....Israel's government can "turn on a dime", i.e. it is not a "stable" leftist environment (like the EU).  The current liberal regime hangs by the slimmest thread in the Knesset, and should they even hint at endangering national sovereignty, they will be gone in a week, and a conservative government installed.  Therefore, although leftist, it cannot be relied upon to remain so.....liberals hate this.....

.....Israel places her national security above all other political considerations.....liberals hate this......

.....Israel is a militarily strong nation, and in the past has used her military strength to deal harshly with her enemies.......liberals hate this......

.....Israel consistently shows her disdain for the UN (and vise versa).........liberals hate this.....

.....Israel is a nuclear power.......liberals hate this.....

.....Israel refuses to "negotiate" or compromise her national sovereignty with her enemies.......liberals hate this.....

.....Israel is not a great beacon of "multiculturalism and tolerance"......liberals hate this.....

To this mix, I think that I would be remiss if I didn't mention that over the decades, many liberals have been among the most antisemetic of political groups in many parts of the world, and you arrive at the current state of affairs....

YMMV

doc

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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 01:21:36 PM »
Great discussion. It boggles the mind but all of the things you each mention make it a little clearer. I guess I'm puzzled as to why assumed to be conservative folk would take such a hard line and start hurling the anti-Israel complaints. Especially given that most conservatives support U.S./Israel policies because of the religious or national security aspect. Mind boggling indeed. Perhaps there's been a cerebral event.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

Spread my work ethic, not my wealth.

Forget change, bring back common sense.
-------------------------------------------------

No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 01:44:30 PM »
Great discussion. It boggles the mind but all of the things you each mention make it a little clearer. I guess I'm puzzled as to why assumed to be conservative folk would take such a hard line and start hurling the anti-Israel complaints. Especially given that most conservatives support U.S./Israel policies because of the religious or national security aspect. Mind boggling indeed. Perhaps there's been a cerebral event.

By your quoted comments, I assume you mean folks like Gator, as I don't hear conservative people expressing a dislike for Israel, or US support for her.

If I remember correctly, Gator's problem stems from his experience with the US Liberty incident, and threrfore I have always sort of dismissed his rantings.  It is "ignorant" to brand an entire country forever based on one isolated occurrence.  Thinking people know that nations will always act in their own interests, and doing so should not substantially alter their status as allies, regardless of the circumstances of the incident, so long as a reasonable explanation exists.

Therefore, I always placed Gator in the "ignorant" category, and moved on to something else....

doc
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 02:23:48 PM »
Okay, this is right off the top of my head, and I tend to be sloppy when recalling things.

Israel USED to be the Great Liberal Cause in America, a left-wing cause, a popular cause among Democrats, liberals, and pre-primitives; next to blue-collar labor unions, support of Israel was top on their list.

From circa 1947 until mid-December 1974.

Then it changed overnight; like, really fast.

I recall mid-December 1974, because from a reading of magazines of the period, from the extreme left-wing Nation to the mildly conservative National Review, that appears to have been when a convulsive shift took place; suddenly, among Democrats, liberals, academicians, whatnot, Israel changed from a cherished cause to an enemy.

I'm not sure what happened; it was almost as if the uberfuerhrerliberal of the liberals picked up a red telephone and called all other liberals in America, "Okay, we're doing an about-face here, starting right now, and so fall in line," sometime the middle of December 1974.

The shift is easily and blatantly discernible, if one looks at old magazines.

I mean to say the shift was sudden and vehement.  Overnight.  Within hours.

I have no idea; whoever controls the minds of Democrats, liberals, and primitives knows, but that whoever it is, isn't saying why.

For the record, those on the other end of the political spectrum, before mid-December 1974, the conservatives and Republicans, didn't pay much attention to Israel.  There was admiration for Israel having fought and won four wars against a much more powerful opponent, but that was about it.

But among Democrats, liberals, and pre-primitives, prior to mid-December 1974, Israel was theirs to hold and maintain and support and cherish.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 02:46:11 PM »
Very interesting Frank, I was not aware of the seismic shift....however, I was residing outside the US from 1973 until late 1975, so I missed it entirely.

doc
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »
Very interesting Frank, I was not aware of the seismic shift....however, I was residing outside the US from 1973 until late 1975, so I missed it entirely.

doc

It must've been really weird.

In November 1974, for example, the Nation was 100% behind Israel.

But the next issue, the Nation decided Israel was the enemy.

And the news media, the academicians, the leftist think-tanks, all toed the line right away.

I have no idea why it occurred, but seriously, when looking at these old magazines, one is left with the impression that there exists one great big huge uberfuerhrer liberal who tells Democrats, liberals, and primitives what they're supposed to think, and powerful enough that they all obey.

It's just really odd, and there wasn't anything in particular happening in the Middle East in mid-December 1974.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 03:23:43 PM »
I'll try to look up what was happening in the Israeli government at the time, who was the PM, and what issues they were addressing.....perhaps they made an umpopular (to US libs) decision.

Now that I think about it, it was around that time that they began aggressive work on their nuclear weapons program, which was, and is still very closely held (to this day, they refuse to confirm that they have them).  Perhap that is what happened.

doc
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 03:24:42 PM »
Great discussion. It boggles the mind but all of the things you each mention make it a little clearer. I guess I'm puzzled as to why assumed to be conservative folk would take such a hard line and start hurling the anti-Israel complaints. Especially given that most conservatives support U.S./Israel policies because of the religious or national security aspect. Mind boggling indeed. Perhaps there's been a cerebral event.

By your quoted comments, I assume you mean folks like Gator, as I don't hear conservative people expressing a dislike for Israel, or US support for her.

If I remember correctly, Gator's problem stems from his experience with the US Liberty incident, and threrfore I have always sort of dismissed his rantings.  It is "ignorant" to brand an entire country forever based on one isolated occurrence.  Thinking people know that nations will always act in their own interests, and doing so should not substantially alter their status as allies, regardless of the circumstances of the incident, so long as a reasonable explanation exists.

Therefore, I always placed Gator in the "ignorant" category, and moved on to something else....

doc
Well he springs to mind but in my OP I made mention of the fact that I've had no fewer than three people in real life make similar comments (not Liberty specific - overall blame the Jews/Neocons stuff). It's kind of why I posted this. I just don't get it.
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Forget change, bring back common sense.
-------------------------------------------------

No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2008, 03:29:34 PM »
I never associated "Neocon" with Israel support.  I think it means a Big Government "conservative," and features growing the deficit, growing government, subsidies for failing business and complicity in Illegal Immigration.  The only "con" part is the desire for lower taxes, which is in conflict with the rest except the growing defecit.

But that is just me.


The modern interpretation of "neocon" comes from a group of liberal/centrist politically active Jews (in the late 80's and 90's) that were/are supporters of Israel, and generally hawkish on the application of military force as an instrument of US foreign policy......they found a home in the republican party when the democrats fell under the control of the anti-war crowd....

doc

it's a horribly misused word these days.  I agree with your definition for the most part, although I have always
operated under the definition of a "neoconservative" as a classical liberal*, complete with an fairly expansionist
foreign policy and belief in somewhat activist government, that was chased to the republican party when the
democrat party became a haven for anti-anti-communitsts.

an "anti-anti-communist" is, IIRC, a term bill buckley coined to describe the leftists that perhaps couldn't bring
themselves to become communists themselves, or to support communism outright, but fought the republicans
at every turn in their efforts to defeat communism.

not much of a difference in the two definitions, if you ask me.

*"liberal" used to be a rather complimentary term.  today, we would call them "moderates".

Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 03:31:06 PM »
I'll try to look up what was happening in the Israeli government at the time, who was the PM, and what issues they were addressing.....perhaps they made an umpopular (to US libs) decision.

Now that I think about it, it was around that time that they began aggressive work on their nuclear weapons program, which was, and is still very closely held (to this day, they refuse to confirm that they have them).  Perhap that is what happened.

doc

I'm trying to re-create history from old magazines, and that doesn't seem quite right.

It was well-known that Israel had an atomic bomb during the Yom Kippur War, and that took place in October 1973.

It seems to me, if I recall correctly, that suddenly in mid-December 1974, the "plight of the poor Palestinians" became popular.....whereas in the past, the Democrats, liberals, primitives, academicians, and liberal think-tanks had always ignored the Palestinians.

And suddenly the Palestinians were "victims."

This reinforces my impression that there's one single uberfuerhrer liberal somewhere, who calls the shots, and the rest immediately fall in line.....and that uberfuerhrer liberal obviously is capricious, random, sort of like someone we all know over at the other place.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2008, 03:35:55 PM »
Very interesting Frank, I was not aware of the seismic shift....however, I was residing outside the US from 1973 until late 1975, so I missed it entirely.

doc

at some point, Israel became the beacon of everything the left despises;  democratic, economically developed, and militarily strong.  they were seen as the powerful aggressors victimizing the poor, undeveloped, and homeless palestinians.  you know
how the left loves the non-aligned.

I think israel's image really began to take a beating when it was viewed in the context of it's conflict against the "powerless"
palestinians.


Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 03:36:08 PM »
Don't the Palestinians serve a larger purpose in terms of the Muslim world though? I can't help but think that their plight is somewhat used to serve a greater goal when it comes to making the world answer for supposed injustices against Muslims.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

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Forget change, bring back common sense.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 03:36:21 PM »
Great discussion. It boggles the mind but all of the things you each mention make it a little clearer. I guess I'm puzzled as to why assumed to be conservative folk would take such a hard line and start hurling the anti-Israel complaints. Especially given that most conservatives support U.S./Israel policies because of the religious or national security aspect. Mind boggling indeed. Perhaps there's been a cerebral event.

By your quoted comments, I assume you mean folks like Gator, as I don't hear conservative people expressing a dislike for Israel, or US support for her.

If I remember correctly, Gator's problem stems from his experience with the US Liberty incident, and threrfore I have always sort of dismissed his rantings.  It is "ignorant" to brand an entire country forever based on one isolated occurrence.  Thinking people know that nations will always act in their own interests, and doing so should not substantially alter their status as allies, regardless of the circumstances of the incident, so long as a reasonable explanation exists.

Therefore, I always placed Gator in the "ignorant" category, and moved on to something else....

doc
Well he springs to mind but in my OP I made mention of the fact that I've had no fewer than three people in real life make similar comments (not Liberty specific - overall blame the Jews/Neocons stuff). It's kind of why I posted this. I just don't get it.

Well....contemporary "neocons" initially at least, WERE Jewish, however, I think that the expression has morphed into a "broad brush" (and erroneous) condemnation of any "conservative" that outwardly supports aggressive use of the US military as an expression of US foreign policy.

Kind of like "if you support the war in Iraq, you are a "neocon", "warmonger" or "chickenhawk".........and since the neocons were initially Jewish, that means that you also are in league with the joooooos.....

doc
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 03:36:43 PM »
I'll try to look up what was happening in the Israeli government at the time, who was the PM, and what issues they were addressing.....perhaps they made an umpopular (to US libs) decision.

Now that I think about it, it was around that time that they began aggressive work on their nuclear weapons program, which was, and is still very closely held (to this day, they refuse to confirm that they have them).  Perhap that is what happened.

doc

I'm trying to re-create history from old magazines, and that doesn't seem quite right.

It was well-known that Israel had an atomic bomb during the Yom Kippur War, and that took place in October 1973.

It seems to me, if I recall correctly, that suddenly in mid-December 1974, the "plight of the poor Palestinians" became popular.....whereas in the past, the Democrats, liberals, primitives, academicians, and liberal think-tanks had always ignored the Palestinians.

And suddenly the Palestinians were "victims."

This reinforces my impression that there's one single uberfuerhrer liberal somewhere, who calls the shots, and the rest immediately fall in line.....and that uberfuerhrer liberal obviously is capricious, random, sort of like someone we all know over at the other place.

bingo.  I was headed in the same direction.  you just got there before I did.

Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 03:37:50 PM »
Great discussion. It boggles the mind but all of the things you each mention make it a little clearer. I guess I'm puzzled as to why assumed to be conservative folk would take such a hard line and start hurling the anti-Israel complaints. Especially given that most conservatives support U.S./Israel policies because of the religious or national security aspect. Mind boggling indeed. Perhaps there's been a cerebral event.

By your quoted comments, I assume you mean folks like Gator, as I don't hear conservative people expressing a dislike for Israel, or US support for her.

If I remember correctly, Gator's problem stems from his experience with the US Liberty incident, and threrfore I have always sort of dismissed his rantings.  It is "ignorant" to brand an entire country forever based on one isolated occurrence.  Thinking people know that nations will always act in their own interests, and doing so should not substantially alter their status as allies, regardless of the circumstances of the incident, so long as a reasonable explanation exists.

Therefore, I always placed Gator in the "ignorant" category, and moved on to something else....

doc
Well he springs to mind but in my OP I made mention of the fact that I've had no fewer than three people in real life make similar comments (not Liberty specific - overall blame the Jews/Neocons stuff). It's kind of why I posted this. I just don't get it.

Well....contemporary "neocons" initially at least, WERE Jewish, however, I think that the expression has morphed into a "broad brush" (and erroneous) condemnation of any "conservative" that outwardly supports aggressive use of the US military as an expression of US foreign policy.

Kind of like "if you support the war in Iraq, you are a "neocon", "warmonger" or "chickenhawk".........and since the neocons were initially Jewish, that means that you also are in league with the joooooos.....

doc
Well it's damned frustrating. Especially hearing from people in my real life who were formally assumed to have a good head on their shoulders. Did Walmart have a sale on stupid?? :-)
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Offline franksolich

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 03:39:13 PM »
at some point, Israel became the beacon of everything the left despises;  democratic, economically developed, and militarily strong.  they were seen as the powerful aggressors victimizing the poor, undeveloped, and homeless palestinians.  you know how the left loves the non-aligned.

I think israel's image really began to take a beating when it was viewed in the context of it's conflict against the "powerless" palestinians.

Golda Meir was prime minister at the time.

Golda Meir, the socialist schoolteacher from Milwaukee, before then had been a liberal icon.

And suddenly she became Satan to the Democrats, liberals, primitives, and academicians.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2008, 03:40:23 PM »
Don't the Palestinians serve a larger purpose in terms of the Muslim world though? I can't help but think that their plight is somewhat used to serve a greater goal when it comes to making the world answer for supposed injustices against Muslims.
Exactly.  After WW II there were 50 MILLION displaced persons in Europe.  They were absorbed in a generation.  The 3 or so million "Palestinians" are NOT accepted into their "brother muslim" countries so they can remain a festering sore next to Israel.

islam -- it's all about the hate.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Can someone please explain this to me?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2008, 03:45:26 PM »
Don't the Palestinians serve a larger purpose in terms of the Muslim world though? I can't help but think that their plight is somewhat used to serve a greater goal when it comes to making the world answer for supposed injustices against Muslims.

The "palestinians" are scum.......I will agree that they are used as a tool by the rest of the muslim world to garner sympathy,  but if you look at their history, they have been most oppressed by the muslims themselves.....

The "rest of the world", has made a large number of "muslim nations" rich beyond their wildest dreams, and still they bitch and complain.  We have no control over what they have accomplished with their wealth, but they are only subject to injustices as a result of their own actions, and their gutter religion.....

doc
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