Why vote GOP back in?

[Javelin]

As is inevitable the final desperate "defense" is vitriol and strawman..let the chest pounding histrionics commence.

You say you will vote for someone that shares your ideals and that Paul (insert any other Libertarian name) is 99.9% accurate with the Constitution but you wouldn`t support him.
Okay even though that is a bit of a confusion you were asked then who you would support..no answer.

Answer one question I have asked through this thread and never have gotten a reply on.
If not the GOP then how do you forge or create a majority in Congress otherwise..what 3rd party or way is going to do it realistically and how?

It is about electing a government to best reflect our ideals even if it isn`t every last one of them..it isn`t a matter of what makes me feel good.
That is where liberals are at and what they vote for...who makes me feel good.
I don`t want a candidate to make me feel good..I want one that understands the world as it is and if anyone thinks that we can unilaterally withdraw ourselves to an island they are not living in reality.
Sorry to burst that Libertarian bubble but it is utopian dreaming and nothing more.

I agree the libertarian bubble is exactly that, Utopian dreaming.

As to how to forge a 3rd party.  You first secure it on a local then later at a state level.  Without that base you cannot have anything.  Ron Pauls idea of winning is about as much of a reality of you or I winning.  It simply will not happen.

You asked previously who in the GOP I do like, Mitt Romney is one that I do like.  Also Jim Demint of South Carolina.  I look at DeMint as an over all solid man and member of Congress.  I voted for him and yes I live in SC.  Lindsey Graham on the other hand is a waste of time and I wish he would just roll over die in his sleep.  He would do us all a favor if he did.

As to Pauls constitutional alignment, I base this upon what he has voted for or against in large part, not his personal beliefs or views.  It is his personal beliefs and views, many of which have even been stated here within this thread is why I would never consider him as a viable option, ever, period.  I look at things this way for how many times have we been told that they are for this or that but yet the way they vote is quite the opposite.  Its quite simple really, the way they vote typically shows the true leaning of where they are, what they say comes second.  Yet with Paul, as he may vote in line with constitutional values more often than not, his personal views scare the hell out of me.

[Javelin]

Just to say that before anyone accuses me of being a hack I do think that some elements of the Libertarian  party are good,I have read the platform.
Where they leave me is with the social liberalism and silly isolationist stuff.
That isn`t conservative in my book and they know it so try to overcome that with the screaming rants that we see from time to time here.
The minute someone suggests in direct words or in their argument that they are the TRUE conservative is the minute I consider them "out there" to be polite about it.

And once again, I am not a libertarian.

[Oceander]

Check into why Hilery called herself an "early 1900's progressive" and you will find the answer as to how the democratic party changed before the 1960's.  The 60's was the end result of what took place in the early 1900's.  It was the writings of the early progressives that inspired Hitler quite literally.  Also if that is any kind of picture of the ideology that the Democrats carry today it scary as hell itself coming into our world here.

I am not on the sidelines per se.  Local and state has been a major push for me and highly involved.  Its difficult to influence the nation when people cannot even properly influence the state they live in.

Since this isn't the "History" thread, I'll not play ping-pong on that topic any more, other than this:  no doubt Hillary Clinton called herself an "early 1900s progressive" (if she in fact did, which I will simply assume arguendo) because she wished to appear to be the successor to the suffragists, who were active in the early 1900s.  That, of course, would put her in good company with such "radicals" as the erstwhile Mrs. Banks from Mary Poppins:

I daresay that Mrs. Banks was not in the least philosophically or emotionally inclined toward the sort of statist totalitarianism embodied in the NSDAP, the various Communist Parties, and now the American DemocratCommunist Party.  As such, attempting to arrogate to one's self the victories of the suffragists in the early 1900s does not, without more, make one totalitarian.

As for the various literary well-springs of Mr. Hitler's inspirations, there are more sources than whomever you intend to refer to when you use the term "early progressives" - I doubt very much if Mr. Hitler would have spent much time listening to an upper middle member of the bourgeoisie such as Mrs. Banks, no matter how good her singing voice.  No doubt others will chime in with their favorites if such needs doing.

Was the 1960s a cusp, a turning-point, a ripening of certain strong currents of thought in the so-called progressive movement(s)?  Of course, but then again, that cusp included not only the violent terrorism of Bill Ayers and the Weathermen, but also the Civil Rights Movement.  Painting with a brush that broad will cause endless troubles because I have no doubt that you do not intend to include people such as Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. in the same class as terrorists such as Bill Ayers.

At any rate, that is quite tangential to the core point, which is this:  it is a shame to see such a clearly committed conservative willingly commit political suicide for the sake of a degree of political/philosophical purity which is more suited to the niceties of academia than the real world of government.

[Carl]

I agree the libertarian bubble is exactly that, Utopian dreaming.

As to how to forge a 3rd party.  You first secure it on a local then later at a state level.  Without that base you cannot have anything.  Ron Pauls idea of winning is about as much of a reality of you or I winning.  It simply will not happen.

You asked previously who in the GOP I do like, Mitt Romney is one that I do like.  Also Jim Demint of South Carolina.  I look at DeMint as an over all solid man and member of Congress.  I voted for him and yes I live in SC.  Lindsey Graham on the other hand is a waste of time and I wish he would just roll over die in his sleep.  He would do us all a favor if he did.

As to Pauls constitutional alignment, I base this upon what he has voted for or against in large part, not his personal beliefs or views.  It is his personal beliefs and views, many of which have even been stated here within this thread is why I would never consider him as a viable option, ever, period.  I look at things this way for how many times have we been told that they are for this or that but yet the way they vote is quite the opposite.  Its quite simple really, the way they vote typically shows the true leaning of where they are, what they say comes second.  Yet with Paul, as he may vote in line with constitutional values more often than not, his personal views scare the hell out of me.

The Mitt Romney thing is interesting to me and was all through the primaries in that folks bought into his "conservative" line.
I live in NY and know first hand that Pataki was not a conservative in my wishes but was a long ways better then Cuomo who he defeated...you take what you can get in life sometimes.
Romney was governor of a state as much or even more liberal then mine...if you are conservative they don`t let you do that.
I will be honest in saying I don`t know anything about how he governed but am pretty sure it probably wasn`t terribly conservative.
If correct then it would mean his whole campaign for President was a lie.

What record of Romneys would you cite as being conservative enough for you?

[Javelin]

At any rate, that is quite tangential to the core point, which is this:  it is a shame to see such a clearly committed conservative willingly commit political suicide for the sake of a degree of political/philosophical purity which is more suited to the niceties of academia than the real world of government.

Perhaps so, yet I am of the belief that no matter what road is taken, we are irreversibly on a course of self destruction.  The sheer size of those who would rather vote for what is convenient or available because they believe there is no other way is far too large and not to mention divided by would be 3rd party votes that do damage to electing a would be more conservative candidate.  

Yet herin is the core of the problem.  Americans have lost their way for they have lost their core beliefs in God.  Prayer once removed from schools and then replaced with the notions of evolution and now the fairy tale of global warming, this generation in of itself has been debased.  

I served with the USMC, worked in military intel for the NIS, I served later as a civilian contractor and worked then with special forces.  My time ranges from Clinton up into Bush years.  I was there in the mess at the beginning.  I come home and find people who are willing to accept a lesser evil after helping those who are fighting daily in their own country for what is right and just.  Yet the people here in the USA are lethargic and seek to apply themselves in the direction of least resistance.  To this end, while we enjoy our current standard of living and SUV's then our homes with air conditioning then the noise of our daily lives.... we aid to our own destruction by accepting less than we should accept.  

Everyone screams "BUT HOW DO WE CHANGE IT?"  Yet few are willing to get involved actively fighting for what is just or right.  They would rather sit behind a computer screen on the net and scream.  This is why I have avoided the internet forums for so long.  After being in the fight day in and out locally I really care not to put up with the mindlessness or perhaps a better word would be the would be heros of the internet.

I have no illusions as to where this country is going.  I have no illusions as do the libertarians under their failed leader Ron Paul.  I have no illusion either about the GOP and their ability to institute things such as Homeland Security providing the tools for the devil himself such as Obama.  I also have no illusions as to where this will all end.  Hence why I said earlier, if I must be pegged, then call me a three percenter.  

 

[Javelin]

The Mitt Romney thing is interesting to me and was all through the primaries in that folks bought into his "conservative" line.
I live in NY and know first hand that Pataki was not a conservative in my wishes but was a long ways better then Cuomo who he defeated...you take what you can get in life sometimes.
Romney was governor of a state as much or even more liberal then mine...if you are conservative they don`t let you do that.
I will be honest in saying I don`t know anything about how he governed but am pretty sure it probably wasn`t terribly conservative.
If correct then it would mean his whole campaign for President was a lie.

What record of Romneys would you cite as being conservative enough for you?

His record was no worse than McCain.  Between the two, I would have picked Romney.  Yet in a election primary, what can one do?  Perhaps to satisfy some here I should have become Ron Paul and run for office myself then at least it would be easier to defend myself from an onslaught of people with accusation online that hold no real merit anyway.

[Oceander]

Perhaps so, yet I am of the belief that no matter what road is taken, we are irreversibly on a course of self destruction.  The sheer size of those who would rather vote for what is convenient or available because they believe there is no other way is far too large and not to mention divided by would be 3rd party votes that do damage to electing a would be more conservative candidate.

Apparently, you're just as good as the next guy at throwing insults when you wish to.  Setting up a strawman by disparagingly sneering at "those who would rather vote for what is convenient or available" serves no-one any good, least of all yourself.

Then again, I trust that you realize that one clear implication of that is that you choose to vote for that which is not available, which doesn't seem to be a particularly wise course of action either.

I have no illusions as to where this country is going.  I have no illusions as do the libertarians under their failed leader Ron Paul.  I have no illusion either about the GOP and their ability to institute things such as Homeland Security providing the tools for the devil himself such as Obama.  I also have no illusions as to where this will all end.  Hence why I said earlier, if I must be pegged, then call me a three percenter.

Then, with all due respect, may I ask why, exactly, are you wasting your time here and putting so much time and energy into your arguments here?  If all is for nought, at least as far as civil political action is concerned, and if the end-times are truly at hand, then it strikes me that one could better occupy one's limited time and resources preparing one's self for the onslaught, not dickering over phantasmagoric niceties of the respective records of McCain, Romney, or Paul - that is, "sit[ing] behind a computer screen on the net and scream[ing]."

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I was a Frederalist:



But he dawdled too much before getting into the race and pissed away his chances.

....

Intel, huh?

That explains the multi-thousand word posts of no discernible value.

[formerlurker]

The Mitt Romney thing is interesting to me and was all through the primaries in that folks bought into his "conservative" line.
I live in NY and know first hand that Pataki was not a conservative in my wishes but was a long ways better then Cuomo who he defeated...you take what you can get in life sometimes.
Romney was governor of a state as much or even more liberal then mine...if you are conservative they don`t let you do that.
I will be honest in saying I don`t know anything about how he governed but am pretty sure it probably wasn`t terribly conservative.
If correct then it would mean his whole campaign for President was a lie.

What record of Romneys would you cite as being conservative enough for you?

Romney was the governor of my state, and save for one-term Cadillac Deville Patrick, we generally lean towards Republic governors as we have not yet fully recovered from the Duke years.    The only reason why Patrick won was because he picked the very popular Tim Murray as his Lt Gov -- this ensured his win in the moderate to conservative leaning Central MA.  

MA is a state of Christians (mostly Catholic), which is unfortunately driven by an elder generation of party line voters.   You throw up gay marriage independently on the ballot (which Romney tried to do but was blocked by the legislature), or abortion and both will be deemed illegal with a wide margin of votes.  

He was the governor of a liberal legislature -- you have to make compromise or nothing happens.  I personally like Romney also, good guy, no skeletons, smart businessman, strong on national defense.   He  has no real chance of winning the presidency so on to the next candidate.  

[Javelin]

Apparently, you're just as good as the next guy at throwing insults when you wish to.  Setting up a strawman by disparagingly sneering at "those who would rather vote for what is convenient or available" serves no-one any good, least of all yourself.

Then again, I trust that you realize that one clear implication of that is that you choose to vote for that which is not available, which doesn't seem to be a particularly wise course of action either.

Yet to become involved locally and have influence in the state is all that I can do at the moment.  So that is what I do.  That in of itself is better than doing nothing and voting for what is obviously not a choice at all, at least for me.

My response was not meant to be a setup nor an insult, but rather an observation of reality.  Perhaps you would understand more if you had been where I have and fought as I have, in the field and now at home.  Where one sits seems to change the perspective of what is taking place, I am sure you can understand this.

[Oceander]

Just a quick question though.  If MA is, in general, a conservative-leaning state, that typically has "Republic governors," then how'd it end up with a reliably liberal legislature?

[Oceander]

Yet to become involved locally and have influence in the state is all that I can do at the moment.  So that is what I do.  That in of itself is better than doing nothing and voting for what is obviously not a choice at all, at least for me.

My response was not meant to be a setup nor an insult, but rather an observation of reality.  Perhaps you would understand more if you had been where I have and fought as I have, in the field and now at home.  Where one sits seems to change the perspective of what is taking place, I am sure you can understand this.

I think we have a certain measure of understanding between the two of us, which of course includes a certain willingness to agree to disagree.  Also, far be it from me to discourage anyone who is getting out and doing something politically oriented, particularly at the state or local level which is really where the rubber meets the road (as Tip O'Neil used to say - supposedly - all politics is local, and there is a certain degree of truth to that statement).  In fact, I would hazard to say that that is probably one of the more fruitful places to apply one's self, and certainly, if NY-23 is any indication, the area that is most in need of attention by active conservatives and the "sunshine" they bring to all the dark, dingy corners under the various state and local rocks (I fear I've stretched that analogy wa-a-a-a-y too far).

No doubt, one's experience informs one's perspective; but also, one needs to bash one's perspective against that of other people from time to time just to make sure that any misconceptions or misperceptions are knocked loose - from one's own perspective as much as from everyone else's.

[Javelin]

Then, with all due respect, may I ask why, exactly, are you wasting your time here and putting so much time and energy into your arguments here?  If all is for nought, at least as far as civil political action is concerned, and if the end-times are truly at hand, then it strikes me that one could better occupy one's limited time and resources preparing one's self for the onslaught, not dickering over phantasmagoric niceties of the respective records of McCain, Romney, or Paul - that is, "sit[ing] behind a computer screen on the net and scream[ing]."

To be more specific as to my position.  I am involved in preparation, albeit maybe not for the end of the world.  At present time I own a home in the Philippines.  I also own my land and house in the USA, cash paid for.  I am debt free therefor I am part of Obamas problem because I will not incur debt lmao.

I have six months food supply, assault weapons, thousands of round of ammo most are armor piercing (all legal in my state).  I also have a cwp and I work directly training people, mostly couples such as husbands and wifes in self defense, weapons and such.  I work locally within my neighborhood and have even made many friends with the sherriffs department to the point where I have taken part in excersises with them which is always fun.  Also I am involved politically in my local level and also on the state level.  This is how I choose to live.  

My being here on these forums, well, a friend suggested I should check out some sites and this was one he recommended.  He is not a member but after reading the forums I signed up... will I stay here and continue involvement, perhaps, perhaps not.

[formerlurker]

Just a quick question though.  If MA is, in general, a conservative-leaning state, that typically has "Republic governors," then how'd it end up with a reliably liberal legislature?

It's not a conservative leaning state -- most of Central MA is (the middle portion of the state).   The reason why is has a liberal legislature is Boston and Springfield, and some of Worcester.     The MA legislature is obscenely corrupt, as is most state governments.  

Older Kennedy era generation of voters who vote party line (Democrats are for the working class, Republicans are for the rich) for local reps/races.   They are dying off though.   The GOP has abandoned MA -- we have 16 GOP members of state lesgislatures, and poor Scott Brown has been completely ignored.    Shame really as the younger generation of taxpaying moderates, who while now don't vote, will be more "aware" and active politically at some point.   Silly to write them off completely.

[Oceander]

To be more specific as to my position.  I am involved in preparation, albeit maybe not for the end of the world.  At present time I own a home in the Philippines.  I also own my land and house in the USA, cash paid for.  I am debt free therefor I am part of Obamas problem because I will not incur debt lmao.

I have six months food supply, assault weapons, thousands of round of ammo most are armor piercing (all legal in my state).  I also have a cwp and I work directly training people, mostly couples such as husbands and wifes in self defense, weapons and such.  I work locally within my neighborhood and have even made many friends with the sherriffs department to the point where I have taken part in excersises with them which is always fun.  Also I am involved politically in my local level and also on the state level.  This is how I choose to live. 

My being here on these forums, well, a friend suggested I should check out some sites and this was one he recommended.  He is not a member but after reading the forums I signed up... will I stay here and continue involvement, perhaps, perhaps not.

Then I would have to say that you are better prepared than 99% - in either event.  Congratulations, my friend (if I may), and please do stick around, your conversation has at the least been interesting.

[Javelin]

I think we have a certain measure of understanding between the two of us, which of course includes a certain willingness to agree to disagree.  Also, far be it from me to discourage anyone who is getting out and doing something politically oriented, particularly at the state or local level which is really where the rubber meets the road (as Tip O'Neil used to say - supposedly - all politics is local, and there is a certain degree of truth to that statement).  In fact, I would hazard to say that that is probably one of the more fruitful places to apply one's self, and certainly, if NY-23 is any indication, the area that is most in need of attention by active conservatives and the "sunshine" they bring to all the dark, dingy corners under the various state and local rocks (I fear I've stretched that analogy wa-a-a-a-y too far).

No doubt, one's experience informs one's perspective; but also, one needs to bash one's perspective against that of other people from time to time just to make sure that any misconceptions or misperceptions are knocked loose - from one's own perspective as much as from everyone else's.

Indeed I believe we also have found common ground.  The local level is really the only level to hold any influence.  Without that foothold we stand no chance whatsoever nationally.  Without the local level we all become noise wherever we are, online or in our local streets as nothing more than a footnote complaint.

[Oceander]

Just out of curiousity, your username wouldn't have anything to do with one of these babies:

would it?

[Javelin]

Then I would have to say that you are better prepared than 99% - in either event.  Congratulations, my friend (if I may), and please do stick around, your conversation has at the least been interesting.

Lol thank you.  You have also been quite good to talk to.  I was thinking about going back and finding some books that you may be interested in about early 1900's history.  

As to my preparation... I have a lot more to do.  At present I am looking at revamping the house to include a wood burning stove that can be cooked on.  Also I plan to implement solar panels to at least give some additional power.  The solar panel addition would be nice to have even if the world doesnt fall apart due to ice problems here in the winter.  We rarely get snow but geez in Jan-Feb ice can hit anytime and knock out power for a week or two.  Such a pain.  My wife likes the idea of the wood burning stove, the revamp would mean new cabinets so you know what shes voting for lol.

My neighbor keeps insisting that I start a militia lol.  I wouldnt mind some good fun with paintball perhaps yet I am not quite to the extreme as some Marines coming back home now and joining the ranks of militias to teach them all they have learned.  My background may certainly raise some eyebrows if I were to start that lol.  Yet in truth, following the model I guess I may already be on a list somewhere for propaganda is the first step.  I certainly would be labeled as a right wing extremist by Pelosi.  Oh well, whatever blows her skirt up, I will simply do what I must.

[Javelin]

Just out of curiousity, your username wouldn't have anything to do with one of these babies:

would it?

LOL well sort of.  When I was with the teams I picked up the nickname because I could find a target day or night, rain or shine and take it out with my team.  They called me Javelin saying I was like a human javelin.  The name stuck after that.  Most called me Jav.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

You ever run by the handle "Skytrooper"?

[Javelin]

You ever run by the handle "Skytrooper"?

No, sounds like some army airborne kind of handle though.  I came out of the USMC and no self respecting Marine would adopt an Army cliche.. no offense to any soldiers out there lol... I am sure you understand though.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

A bit of back story for you:

This site is an off-shoot of another conservative site. Most of the high post count members here come from The Other Site (TOS). On TOS was a member by the handle of gator. Gator fancied himself the re-embodiment of the Confederacy and righter of all wrongs involving Israel vis-a-vis The Liberty incident.

In the run-up to the 2008 campaign season Herr gator lost what little of his mind he may have ever possessed and went over to Ron Paul. Alas, about this time Herr gator was also vested with admin authorities. His Ronulan activities attracted the notice of numerous like-but-semi-minded individuals of Paulestinian persuasion. To say they did not acquit themselves with dignity and aplomb would be an understatement. It was not merely one or two of them, it was a universal trait among them. The paranoia, the fear-mongering, strawmen, false dichotomies, ad hominems (particularly "neocon"), indicting the US military etc etc etc.

Whenever one of his Paulestinian cohorts was met in kind Herr gator would ban the "offending" member. I myself was banned for posting article BY Dr Paulsy. Not articles ABOUT Paul but written by his own hand that were so embarrassing gator deleted them and banned me (as opposed to taking an intellectual step back, reassessing his position and shedding his cultism).

The contemporaneous catharsis of our reforming ourselves at this site under such under such injustices can be viewed in the earliest threads of the Fight Club forum which you will be able to view once your post count exceeds 49.

This is why the name Ron Paul! brings such immediate and visceral reactions from this forum. If you are a conservative--and I have no reason to say you are not--you are more than welcome here but be advised, on neighborly terms, that any advocacy of Herr Doktor will unnecessarily complicate whatever point you seek to impart.

[Oceander]

LOL well sort of.  When I was with the teams I picked up the nickname because I could find a target day or night, rain or shine and take it out with my team.  They called me Javelin saying I was like a human javelin.  The name stuck after that.  Most called me Jav.

Then maybe this would work as a better avatar image than the default caveman that every new member gets graced with:

if you like it, please feel free to use it as you choose.

[Javelin]

A bit of back story for you:

This site is an off-shoot of another conservative site. Most of the high post count members here come from The Other Site (TOS). On TOS was a member by the handle of gator. Gator fancied himself the re-embodiment of the Confederacy and righter of all wrongs involving Israel vis-a-vis The Liberty incident.

In the run-up to the 2008 campaign season Herr gator lost what little of his mind he may have ever possessed and went over to Ron Paul. Alas, about this time Herr gator was also vested with admin authorities. His Ronulan activities attracted the notice of numerous like-but-semi-minded individuals of Paulestinian persuasion. To say they did not acquit themselves with dignity and aplomb would be an understatement. It was not merely one or two of them, it was a universal trait among them. The paranoia, the fear-mongering, strawmen, false dichotomies, ad hominems (particularly "neocon"), indicting the US military etc etc etc.

Whenever one of his Paulestinian cohorts was met in kind Herr gator would ban the "offending" member. I myself was banned for posting article BY Dr Paulsy. Not articles ABOUT Paul but written by his own hand that were so embarrassing gator deleted them and banned me (as opposed to taking an intellectual step back, reassessing his position and shedding his cultism).

The contemporaneous catharsis of our reforming ourselves at this site under such under such injustices can be viewed in the earliest threads of the Fight Club forum which you will be able to view once your post count exceeds 49.

This is why the name Ron Paul! brings such immediate and visceral reactions from this forum. If you are a conservative--and I have no reason to say you are not--you are more than welcome here but be advised, on neighborly terms, that any advocacy of Herr Doktor will unnecessarily complicate whatever point you seek to impart.

Ahhh.. Finally an explanation that makes sense.  Thank you for the back drop story.  It would make perfect sense considering the drama that took place as to why so many get hyped up over RP.  I have had very little affiliation with any political forums whatsoever.  I have been active on weapons forum but those are largely non political but more so educational on weapons systems.  Being active there can make someone that is knowledgeable on a weapons system look like an idiot when an armorer shows up that really knows his stuff lol.  

What scares me about 2012 is the onslaught of support that keeps being thrown into Paul or another third party.  What many of these people do not understand is that even if a third party were elected they would be essentially powerless to a great degree with little to no support from the senate.  Every passage of a bill would take so much strain it would make Regan's beginning look like a walk in the park.  I am not opposed by a third party entering the arena but it first will take the establishment of that base in the State levels then Congress before a Presidency can even be thought of.

The best hope we have is 2010 and to utterly annihilate those that are presently there running down the list replacing all the traitors we can.  Perhaps then we can at least get a good man in office for 2012 that is actually a good man an not a label for a brand of the GOP.  We need real men there at this time.  

I do believe that in time either the GOP will be revived back to what it should be or replaced.  It would not surprise me to see the democratic party replaced by libertarian for most libertarians seem to be reformed democrats.  Yet either way, I do not see the current system surviving another two to three generations for the sheer momentum of real world events economically and socially are dictating this more than the monarch mindset of those that seek to control the system.

For those that look to Ron Paul for salvation, they are truly crazy.  Yet I do stick by my statements that he is not all bad, he has many good ideas that should be looked into such as auditing the Fed and or the destruction of it.  I also like his sons idea, Rand Paul, of setting term limits.  Just keep in mind I do not support Paul in any way politically.

Now at least I can understand why i was attacked and I can see why those here have a bit more deep seated anger for the topic.  

[Javelin]

Then maybe this would work as a better avatar image than the default caveman that every new member gets graced with:

if you like it, please feel free to use it as you choose.

Lol thank you for that!  I will use it.