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Author Topic: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool  (Read 8677 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 17, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
OK, if you have to paint me as a liar do as you will, I'm certain nothing I can state will stop that allegation anyway.  As the rules are if you don't agree with us, your (...insert derogatory...)
I don't see a denial there.  Very weak evasion of the previous post.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 04:29:37 PM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 17, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
OK, if you have to paint me as a liar do as you will, I'm certain nothing I can state will stop that allegation anyway.  As the rules are if you don't agree with us, your (...insert derogatory...)

Just because I find you nauseating doesn't mean that everybody else does. This place doesn't march in lockstep with a lot, except a general dislike of stupidity.
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Offline debk

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 05:22:01 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam's post

Quote
"We are a state agency bound by all the laws of the state of Idaho"

And therein lies the problem....They are not a private business and even if they were could set themselves up for a discrimination lawsuit.



--------------------------------

If the place is a "state agency" not only are the bound by the laws of the state, they are bound by federal law.

Homosexuality is a "protected" class, same as the elderly or handicapped. It is illegal to discriminate against them by federal law.


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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2009, 05:22:20 PM »
Salaam--I merely asked you a question and you get defensive.  Speaks volumes, really.

Oh, and I notice you still haven't answered it, but that's okay, I got the answer I expected.
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2009, 05:39:25 PM »
Quote from: debk on June 17, 2009, 05:22:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but whats the state of Idaho's definition of "family" thats the issue
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2009, 05:41:56 PM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 17, 2009, 07:32:50 AM
I was trying to give simple responses to lenghthy thoughts lest I be tarred and feathered for my typically long missives.

Principally, I believe that issues such at these as they relate to what two consenting adults do and the rights their of should be left up to individual States and private institutions.  When it becomes Federal the only thing I expect is equal protection under the law.  I happen to believe is less government.

That being said as it relates to this particular issue, this was not a privately owned business, therefore they have to give equal access and protections and can't discriminate on things such as fees because of personally held beliefs, unless it just so happens that there is a state or federal statute that happens to agree with their beliefs.

From the article, the only thing we got was one of the management stating that the state of Idaho defines "family" as one man and one woman.  And I doubt that is on the books, because "family" is a broad term and if we used that polarizing definition, than people like me never had a family even though all my caretakers were straight.  See the issue there.

I think the marriage issue was confused with "family" and that is a problem.  Obviously, the State of Idaho considers them a family or they wouldn't give them foster children.

As far as gay pride parades, if it's legal, I don't object.

I'm not stating that we should have a free for all, but once we begin asking government to intercede on behalf of our personal beliefs, we are asking for more government and like I stated I believe in less government.
The fact that an activist judge placed children in a home with a same-sex couple does not make "the state of Idaho" in agreement.  Activist judges do stupid things all the time. 
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2009, 06:32:46 PM »
Quote
Salaam--I merely asked you a question and you get defensive.  Speaks volumes, really.

Indeed it does.  IMO anyway.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2009, 07:13:41 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on June 17, 2009, 06:32:46 PM
Indeed it does.  IMO anyway.
...has yet to answer the question either.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2009, 07:31:38 PM »
Quote from: lug-nut on June 17, 2009, 07:13:41 PM
...has yet to answer the question either.

I'm not going to hold my breathe waiting for it either.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2009, 10:37:06 PM »
Quote from: rich_t on June 17, 2009, 07:31:38 PM
I'm not going to hold my breathe waiting for it either.


Do you suppose TNO converted to Islam?  Posting style seems familiar.
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Offline Salaam

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 07:37:07 AM »
My God, what question children?  You keep rambling on about a question that wasn't asked.  Maybe I missed it, re post it then I will answer.  No need to get the tinfoil hats out swearing a conspiracy over it...

And BTW, judges don't place children in foster care, that's done by the state's child welfare agency.
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2009, 07:42:49 AM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 18, 2009, 07:37:07 AM
My God, what question children?  You keep rambling on about a question that wasn't asked.  Maybe I missed it, re post it then I will answer.  No need to get the tinfoil hats out swearing a conspiracy over it...

And BTW, judges don't place children in foster care, that's done by the state's child welfare agency.

You are drifting out of the lane.  Grab the wheel.  The foster care case mentioned here was indeed decided by a judge. 
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2009, 09:18:16 AM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 18, 2009, 07:37:07 AM
My God, what question children?  You keep rambling on about a question that wasn't asked.  Maybe I missed it, re post it then I will answer.  No need to get the tinfoil hats out swearing a conspiracy over it...

And BTW, judges don't place children in foster care, that's done by the state's child welfare agency.

Let me help you, since you apparently can't find the time to even read what was posted a page ago:

Salaam:
Quote
That makes no sense on your part.  I stated that I don't care in both instances.  I believe we shouldn't legislate our beliefs, that is all.  Obviously I don't accept homosexuality....

NHSparky:
Quote
But you're totally okay with sharia law being applied.

Got it.

Sparky's implication is, of course, that while you hold a lofty laissez faire philosophy with respect to the gay and lesbian agenda, "agenda" meaning their insistence that they somehow have basic human rights denied them, you're adamantly in favor of sharia law.

You were given an opportunity to deny it. Which you did not.

Perhaps this topic might be better served in a separate thread?   :popcorn:   
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Offline Salaam

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2009, 10:52:02 AM »
And Euph I'm on record time and time again against Shariah law for a myriad of reasons I outlined in the past, most Islamic that non-Muslims really wouldn't care about as the debate is normally one between Muslims.

But for your purposes, the simple answer is no.  It's not a new question or a new answer.  Some just want to make gross assumptions about what I believe because I happen to be both Muslim and one who disagrees with their opinion.

Next, I will probably get a question about Israel, which before you ask, support their right to exist in Peace and got crucified by other Muslims some even my close associates in December when I blamed Hamas for that flare up that killed 1000 plus Palestinians.

Let's just try to stay on topic please.

I don't support a "gay agenda" I just happen to have a different view concerning their rights according to the law.
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2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

Offline NHSparky

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2009, 11:06:06 AM »
Problem is, as someone else pointed out, they weren't a "family" in that these kids were not legally adopted by said couple.  Had that been the case, then they might actually have recourse.  But they don't.  C'est dommage.
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Offline Salaam

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2009, 11:47:27 AM »
Quote from: NHSparky on June 18, 2009, 11:06:06 AM
Problem is, as someone else pointed out, they weren't a "family" in that these kids were not legally adopted by said couple.  Had that been the case, then they might actually have recourse.  But they don't.  C'est dommage.

Hadn't thought of it that way.  Once you brought up the "foster" versus "adoption" argument, I had to reevalute my thoughts concerning the topic.  While I'm now in agreement with you on the merits of whether or not they have a right to challenge the pool.

I still am concerned about the legal implications of having "family" being defined based on where you go.  If there was a uniform standard that would be one thing, but right now it's just too much gray area in my opinion.
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2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 11:51:05 AM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 18, 2009, 11:47:27 AM
Hadn't thought of it that way.  Once you brought up the "foster" versus "adoption" argument, I had to reevalute my thoughts concerning the topic.  While I'm now in agreement with you on the merits of whether or not they have a right to challenge the pool.

I still am concerned about the legal implications of having "family" being defined based on where you go.  If there was a uniform standard that would be one thing, but right now it's just too much gray area in my opinion.
1.  Blood relative
2.  Legally married (1 male, 1 female)
3.  Legally adopted.

Seems simple enough.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 12:03:15 PM »
I think this still boils down to the gays seeing discrimination where it doesn't exist. Either one of the "parents" could have entered with the children as a family with the other adult paying their fair share. In fact, as a kid, I often went with another friend and their mom and was included under their "family" fee. Places like that don't ask for a proof of relationship, it would be too time consuming.
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Offline Salaam

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2009, 02:50:41 PM »
Quote from: thundley4 on June 18, 2009, 12:03:15 PM
I think this still boils down to the gays seeing discrimination where it doesn't exist. Either one of the "parents" could have entered with the children as a family with the other adult paying their fair share. In fact, as a kid, I often went with another friend and their mom and was included under their "family" fee. Places like that don't ask for a proof of relationship, it would be too time consuming.

Another good point...

Quote from: lug-nut on June 18, 2009, 11:51:05 AM
2.  Legally married (1 male, 1 female)

Playing devil's advocate here, but what if they were legally married in another State?  I don't know Idaho's laws on recognizing marriages performed in other states, but would it then be up to the pool rep to determine those nuances?

I only state such because the main thrust of the argument seemed to have more to do with the fact that they were a same-sex couple.

If they were legally married, would they/should they present a marriage certificate to get the family rate?

I only ask these hypothetical questions because these are legal questions that have to be resolved one way or the other.

I'm under the impression given the tone of the debate that two men showing up with kids claiming to be a family would have been an issue regardless.

I guess the better way to phrase it is what do you guys think if those conditions I brought up were fact?

Simple opinion, no debate...
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2009, 07:52:16 PM »
Quote from: Salaam on June 18, 2009, 07:37:07 AM
My God, what question children?  You keep rambling on about a question that wasn't asked.  Maybe I missed it, re post it then I will answer.  No need to get the tinfoil hats out swearing a conspiracy over it...

And BTW, judges don't place children in foster care, that's done by the state's child welfare agency.
The article specifies a divorce hearing.  This requires a judge.  Judges most certainly award custody. 
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: Same-Sex Couple, Children Denied Family Rate at Idaho Pool
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2009, 10:59:11 AM »
Quote from: NHSparky on June 16, 2009, 08:07:44 PM
Like I said, people--I've LIVED in this area for a number of years in my misspent youth.

Good luck getting ANY jury to award more than a middle finger to any potential lawsuit that is brought up.

That pretty much is going to be the outcome in the whole state. I think all of two counties carried the Messiah, both were downtown Boise or there abouts. Not exactly a liberal state. Oh, and we're all armed to the teeth! Very little violent crime in these parts. It could get ya killed!

BTW, Idaho does NOT recognize gay marriage in any form. From another state or country, won't matter.

edited to add content
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 11:09:28 AM by AllosaursRus »
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