one in three teachers says teach creationism alongside evolution

[USA4ME]

Not sure if you're aware of this but you can translate books from one lauguage to another.

And if it's a "knock off," for what reason would I have to believe that it gives us an accurate reflection of "how we are to interact with Him?"

If it's a book where some things are fables and others aren't, for what reason do I have to believe some man's judgement on what is accurate and what isn't?  In fact, why should I worship a God that so weak He can't even provide for me a book that is untainted, a book that can't be proven as being accurate by numerous manuscripts?

The other thing I would have to believe is that God lied.  The writers of the Bible were inspired of God.  IOW, the things they wrote were exactly what God told them to write, nothing more and nothing less.  The writers were the instrument through which God transfered His thoughts to paper for us.  I'm not even willing to discuss the Bible being written in any other way than what I just described with anyone because that automatically places the discussion in a realm that is inaccurate.  God described a 6 day creation, so that's what happened.  To believe it is a fable is to believe God intentionally lied.  I'll put it this way:  If God had created the universe, or allowed it to form itself, over a long period of time, He would have stated so.  To believe otherwise is to say that God is so weak-minded he didn't know how to explain what He did, so to "keep it simple" he just made up the story about the 6 day thingy.  I don't believe God is stupid at all.  If He had "created" over millions of years, He would know exactly how to explain it in a way that all men from all times could understand, and He would have had Moses pen that explanation in the Book of Genesis.

It still comes back to whether one believes God is all-powerful.  And all-powerful God could create the universe in 6 days, and he could create it in a way that makes it appear much older.

I'm confident God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.  Why things appear millions of years old I don't know.  If it was important for us to know, God would have told us.  He did tell us He created in 6 days, so that apparently was important.  What it tells us is that He's so powerful he can create from nothing things we have barely begin to scratch the surface of beginning to understand.  The day after Adam was created, he didn't look one day old, so there's evidence that God can create something that appears older than it really is.  My point has been that if He could create a whole universe just by speaking it into existance, then making it appear older than it really is would be a snap.

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[djones520]

Not sure if you're aware of this but you can translate books from one lauguage to another.

And if it's a "knock off," for what reason would I have to believe that it gives us an accurate reflection of "how we are to interact with Him?"

If it's a book where some things are fables and others aren't, for what reason do I have to believe some man's judgement on what is accurate and what isn't?  In fact, why should I worship a God that so weak He can't even provide for me a book that is untainted, a book that can't be proven as being accurate by numerous manuscripts?

The other thing I would have to believe is that God lied.  The writers of the Bible were inspired of God.  IOW, the things they wrote were exactly what God told them to write, nothing more and nothing less.  The writers were the instrument through which God transfered His thoughts to paper for us.  I'm not even willing to discuss the Bible being written in any other way than what I just described with anyone because that automatically places the discussion in a realm that is inaccurate.  God described a 6 day creation, so that's what happened.  To believe it is a fable is to believe God intentionally lied.  I'll put it this way:  If God had created the universe, or allowed it to form itself, over a long period of time, He would have stated so.  To believe otherwise is to say that God is so weak-minded he didn't know how to explain what He did, so to "keep it simple" he just made up the story about the 6 day thingy.  I don't believe God is stupid at all.  If He had "created" over millions of years, He would know exactly how to explain it in a way that all men from all times could understand, and He would have had Moses pen that explanation in the Book of Genesis.

It still comes back to whether one believes God is all-powerful.  And all-powerful God could create the universe in 6 days, and he could create it in a way that makes it appear much older.

I'm confident God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.  Why things appear millions of years old I don't know.  If it was important for us to know, God would have told us.  He did tell us He created in 6 days, so that apparently was important.  What it tells us is that He's so powerful he can create from nothing things we have barely begin to scratch the surface of beginning to understand.  The day after Adam was created, he didn't look one day old, so there's evidence that God can create something that appears older than it really is.  My point has been that if He could create a universe, then making it appear older than it really is would be a snap.

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Wheren't those books translated by people who could gain from whats written in them? 

And translating from one language to another is never concrete.  Take a look at just about any dubbed Japanese anime and you'll see my point.

[Chris_]

Wheren't those books translated by people who could gain from whats written in them? 

And translating from one language to another is never concrete.  Take a look at just about any dubbed Japanese anime and you'll see my point.

GREAT example.  I love anime and always listen to it in Japanese.  The "good" translation is a bit more literal: "I followed the foxdog and saw his shrine."  Japanese is much more contextual than English: "I followed the raccoon to his house, where I saw he had established a shrine to his ancestors. It was, of course, facing East in accordance with Fung Shui."

Yet people think they can translate from Aramaic to English and lose no context at all.

[USA4ME]

Wheren't those books translated by people who could gain from whats written in them? 

I have no reason to believe that.  To believe that God would tell inspired men what to write in a book in order to tell us what we need to know, and then to allow that book to be somehow taited over the years, would defeat the purpose of God having men write down His words to begin with.  That's basically saying that God gave us something way back when and then just crossed His fingers and hoped those people on down the line got an accurate account.  I'm fully confident that the same God who's powerful enough to speak the universe into existance would make sure His Word lasted through the ages exactly as He revealed them.

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[Chris_]

My point has been that if He could create a whole universe just by speaking it into existance, then making it appear older than it really is would be a sin
.

Yet He didn't. He spake this Universe into existence and created all the rules that run it.  He has been very specific -- Things work according to mechanical processes that are reproducible.

God is not a prankster. He designed this fabulous Universe and started the process that would end up with the modern Human Brain.  At some point of His choosing he started inserting souls -- perhaps earlier than we realize.

True scientists find God more often than not --  the way the Universe works is fantastic and awe-inspiring.

The standard Biblical "God as Father" diminishes Him.

[djones520]

I have no reason to believe that.  To believe that God would tell inspired men what to write in a book in order to tell us what we need to know, and then to allow that book to be somehow taited over the years, would defeat the purpose of God having men write down His words to begin with.  That's basically saying that God gave us something way back when and then just crossed His fingers and hoped those people on down the line got an accurate account.  I'm fully confident that the same God who's powerful enough to speak the universe into existance would make sure His Word lasted through the ages exactly as He revealed them.

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So do you read the original text written by the Apostles?  Or like most people the King James bible that was written in the 1600's?

And let us not forget that most of the old testament was an oral history passed along for thousands of years before being written down.  Ever do that game where you sit with a circle of people and tell the person to the right of you one thing, and hear what the person to the left finally gets it as?

[Chris_]

I have no reason to believe that.  To believe that God would tell inspired men what to write in a book in order to tell us what we need to know, and then to allow that book to be somehow taited over the years, would defeat the purpose of God having men write down His words to begin with.  That's basically saying that God gave us something way back when and then just crossed His fingers and hoped those people on down the line got an accurate account.  I'm fully confident that the same God who's powerful enough to speak the universe into existance would make sure His Word lasted through the ages exactly as He revealed them.

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God made His plan clear: I provide this to you, mankind, so you will understand our relationship. I love you and give you free will to love me back. I will send My Son to you to absorb your sins.  He will be tortured and die for you.  This isn't easy and I feel His pain -- you should learn from His example.

God never lies.  He provided a Universe that follows the rules -- we just need to discover those rules.

[USA4ME]

My point has been that if He could create a whole universe just by speaking it into existance, then making it appear older than it really is would be a sin

That not what I said.  I said "My point has been that if He could create a universe, then making it appear older than it really is would be a snap."

All you're saying to me is that you don't believe God is all-powerful.  In fact, you really told me you don't believe in God at all, which is exactly how I will adress you on this topic.

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[USA4ME]

So do you read the original text written by the Apostles?  Or like most people the King James bible that was written in the 1600's?

There are numerous manuscripts that have been translated accurately.  Once again, God made sure His Word was handed down accurately, otherwise I have no reason to believe any of it.

And let us not forget that most of the old testament was an oral history passed along for thousands of years before being written down.  Ever do that game where you sit with a circle of people and tell the person to the right of you one thing, and hear what the person to the left finally gets it as?

I've already explained this, God told all the inspired writers exactly what to write down.

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[djones520]

There are numerous manuscripts that have been translated accurately.  Once again, God made sure His Word was handed down accurately, otherwise I have no reason to believe any of it.

I've already explained this, God told all the inspired writers exactly what to write down.

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Thats your prerogative I guess.

I myself am going to believe that todays works are probably quite differant from what they where when they were originally dictated from either the divine, or man, whoever it may have been.

[USA4ME]

Thats your prerogative I guess.

I myself am going to believe that todays works are probably quite differant from what they where when they were originally dictated from either the divine, or man, whoever it may have been.

Then my question is why believe any of it?  You've got a God who's so weak he can't preserve his word from generation to generation.  And on top of that his word was written in a language which might not be tranlated correctly.  And some of it is fables and others aren't, but who can really tell.

Not how it works.  It's either infallible and has been preserved accurately, or it's the most worthless book ever written because who can depend on it since it might be accurate or it might not, or this story might be a fable or it might not be.  Impossible to have a confident faith in something that's sorta maybe the same but probably quite different from what it originally was.  If that's all it was, then no thanks, I'd pass.

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[Chris_]

There are numerous manuscripts that have been translated accurately.  Once again, God made sure His Word was handed down accurately, otherwise I have no reason to believe any of it.

I've already explained this, God told all the inspired writers exactly what to write down.

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See my example upthread.  How can the writers exactly translate when there is built in bias?  Think about this statement: "We went to Wynn Dixie today and had po-boys and hush puppies."  Translate that into Spanish and see if it makes any sense (yes, I know Wynn Dixie doesn't sell Po-Boys).

If you aren't reading the original language you aren't reading a literal interpretation.
 

[Chris_]

Then my question is why believe any of it?  You've got a God who's so weak he can't preserve his word from generation to generation.  And on top of that his word was written in a language which might not be tranlated correctly.  And some of it is fables and others aren't, but who can really tell.

Not how it works.  It's either infallible and has been preserved accurately, or it's the most worthless book ever written because who can depend on it since it might be accurate or it might not, or this story might be a fable or it might not be.  Impossible to have a confident faith in something that's sorta maybe the same but probably quite different from what it originally was.  If that's all it was, then no thanks, I'd pass.

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Or God wanted us to understand the important moral lessons in His word, which transcend language barriers.  He didn't describe F=ma anywhere -- why do you think that is?  Maybe because the Bible is a liturgical text and not a science text?

[USA4ME]

If the Bible as we know it is not a 100% accurate reflection of what God had inspired men write regardless of the language of which it has been translated, then it is worthless.  If God could not forsee that it was not going to be possible to accurately translate His Word into any language and it not lose any of it's original meaning, then there is no God.

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[Chris_]

If you didn't read it in the original language then you are relying on a knock off. 

God's Word is how we are to interact with Him, not how Things Work.

Please quote the scripture to back that one up.

[djones520]

Please quote the scripture to back that one up.

Qoute where it says that if the Bible is not accurate to the word, then there is no God?

[Chris_]

Qoute where it says that if the Bible is not accurate to the word, then there is no God?

Maybe you should ask the one who said that.

[MrsSmith]

Wheren't those books translated by people who could gain from whats written in them? 

And translating from one language to another is never concrete.  Take a look at just about any dubbed Japanese anime and you'll see my point.

The Bible has been translated numerous times from the oldest copies available in the original languages.  There are more preserved copies and partial copies of the Bible than of any other manuscript ever.  The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the copies were unchanged.  If you choose not to believe, that's your prerogative, but it isn't based on "reason and intellect," it's based on assumptions and pride.

[MrsSmith]

Well, take a guess on magnitude -- thousands, millions, or billions of years?

Again, how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden?  Thousands of years?  Longer?  Obviously, the world was very full of life by Noah's day, so the animals outside the Garden were probably breeding...and maybe using the abilities God built in to adapt to their environments.  How long do you think it took to fill the earth before death began?

[MrsSmith]

It is even dumber to reject His gifts of intellect and reasoning and replace them with a theological text designed to teach His Children how to worship Him.

IF, (and that's a big if), the text were only intended to teach people how to worship, you might have a small point.  Maybe...

However, we have no reason to believe that the only point of the Bible is "how to worship."  He could have simply skipped a lot of it if that were so.  Why, then, would He tell us twice about the beginning of our world?  Just for fun?  A little "inside joke" for the oh-so-smart of each succeeding generation?   

[MrsSmith]

Agriculture.  Until the advent of agriculture large scale civilization was impossible.  You just can't get enough food to feed 10,000 people by simply hunting the passing herds.



Take a look at that chart.  Over the last 100,000 years, CO2 levels where pretty low relatively speaking.  A large amount of the gas was trapped in the continent spanning glaciers.  You see that about the end of that ice age, there was a massive rise in the CO2 levels.  That was due to the ice melting, and the CO2 being released into the atmosphere.

Now, it's widely accepted scientific fact that higher CO2 levels are required for large scale agriculture to take place.  A silver lining to AGW was that more food would be able to be grown to support the worlds population.  So prior to the melting of these ice caps humanity was unable to sustain and feed a large population like it can today.  They had to devote a massive amount of time to hunting and gathering, which restricted the amount of time they had to advancing in things like arts and sciences.

We can support this by looking at the fossil record of humanity and it's ancestors.  Each successive species of humanity had a larger brain, and was more capable of complex thought.  Each successive species of humanity exhibited more and more ability to "invent", there by making food easier to get, and being able to devote more time to expanding things like language, art, clothing, etc...

So, once that CO2 was released, we where able to start cultivating crops, and planting them in large scale quantities.  Humanity was able to settle down in one place now, since it was no longer a slave to the moving herds.  Since they had to devote less time to getting that food because one person could now provide what 20 people used to be able to provide, more and more people where able to devote their spare time to "inventing" society.

This is why I laugh at people who hate global warming.  None of us would be alive today if it where not for global warming.  Humanity would still be largely hunting and gathering groups, with our population reaching no more then a couple million world wide.

Well, Thank God for CO2!!

[MrsSmith]

Yet He didn't. He spake this Universe into existence and created all the rules that run it.  He has been very specific -- Things work according to mechanical processes that are reproducible.

God is not a prankster. He designed this fabulous Universe and started the process that would end up with the modern Human Brain.  At some point of His choosing he started inserting souls -- perhaps earlier than we realize.

True scientists find God more often than not --  the way the Universe works is fantastic and awe-inspiring.

The standard Biblical "God as Father" diminishes Him.

Whereas the standard "reasoning" view that He lied in His book is perfectly respectful.   

[Chris_]

Again, how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden?  Thousands of years?  Longer?  Obviously, the world was very full of life by Noah's day, so the animals outside the Garden were probably breeding...and maybe using the abilities God built in to adapt to their environments.  How long do you think it took to fill the earth before death began?

It is an easy question -- how old do you think the Earth is?  In years: thousands, millions, billions?

[Chris_]

Whereas the standard "reasoning" view that He lied in His book is perfectly respectful.   

I didn't say he lied -- I say that people who close their eyes to the facts must come to the conclusion that God lied.

Me?  It is very clear that God made this Universe and gave us the ability to discover its wonders.  It is sad when people reject the gift of discovery.

[Chris_]

The Bible has been translated numerous times from the oldest copies available in the original languages.  There are more preserved copies and partial copies of the Bible than of any other manuscript ever.  The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the copies were unchanged.  If you choose not to believe, that's your prerogative, but it isn't based on "reason and intellect," it's based on assumptions and pride.

It is based on knowledge.  Knowledge of languages and culture.  Anthropology.

Or do you decry that as well?