Author Topic: Dead Unicorn walking!  (Read 1500 times)

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Dead Unicorn walking!
« on: November 22, 2014, 04:03:53 PM »
There's no way she's not going to get tombstoned.


Too much to bring over:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025853156

enjoy
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2014, 04:21:27 PM »
Nuclear Unicorn "gets" the Austrian school, while her fellow primitives pant-hoot and wiggle-waggle their armpits at her.

Her strange words frighten them, like a ghost story at an Girl Scout campout.
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Offline notaDUmmie

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2014, 05:04:15 PM »
Yeah, I can't believe the Unicorn has that much time left.

Too much common sense.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2014, 05:31:48 PM »
Unicorn is the only one with much grasp at all of economics, even he does not bring up the actual history of those high-tax-rate times when the Dow stayed in the 2,000 ballpark for years on end and the US economy was a twentieth its present size...and latterly the 70% top tax rate kicked in at a level where it hit even plumbers, so they just worked off the books once they hit that threshold each year, because like the AMT now, Congress never adjusted the starting point for it to match inflation, so it pulled in more and more people each year.

One or two others seem to have a glimmer of a clue, but the stupidity in that thread is so thick you could build skyscrapers on it.  Employer portion of Social Security is a well-kept secret?  Not to anyone who has ever had any connection to a business with even one employee.
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Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2014, 05:56:03 PM »
Unicorn is the only one with much grasp at all of economics, even he does not bring up the actual history of those high-tax-rate times when the Dow stayed in the 2,000 ballpark for years on end and the US economy was a twentieth its present size...and latterly the 70% top tax rate kicked in at a level where it hit even plumbers, so they just worked off the books once they hit that threshold each year, because like the AMT now, Congress never adjusted the starting point for it to match inflation, so it pulled in more and more people each year.

One or two others seem to have a glimmer of a clue, but the stupidity in that thread is so thick you could build skyscrapers on it.  Employer portion of Social Security is a well-kept secret?  Not to anyone who has ever had any connection to a business with even one employee.

Well, I think basing an entire economy on luxury yachts is eeeevil and dumb!

You should base it on shoe stores.
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 06:06:13 PM »
I read all that trash and I realize just what the problem with liberals is. They are linear thinkers. That thread proves it. They focus on the yacht and what it represents to them and not on the actual point that NU is attempting to make. The point as I see it was that higher taxes causes people to alter their spending in ways that are negative to the economy. Raise taxes on the rich and they will find ways to avoid the taxes and the economy is negatively impacted. Raise taxes on the middle class and they will spend less on luxury items. Again the economy is hurt. NU was illustrating this by pointing out that is better to build yachts in America so that the money that enters the economy via the purchase of materials, the hiring of builders and sales people, the rental of property to sale the yachts stimulates growth. Tax a market past the breaking point and the money will find its way into other economies benefiting them.

Liberals don't see this because they are blinded by their desire to punish the rich. If they can deny a wealthy person an American made yacht screw the economy because in their view some greater moral justice was served. Serving some ideological version of social justice is all well and good, but the landlord wants cash.
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Offline tanstaafl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2014, 06:29:34 PM »
I read all that trash and I realize just what the problem with liberals is. They are linear thinkers. That thread proves it. They focus on the yacht and what it represents to them and not on the actual point that NU is attempting to make. The point as I see it was that higher taxes causes people to alter their spending in ways that are negative to the economy. Raise taxes on the rich and they will find ways to avoid the taxes and the economy is negatively impacted. Raise taxes on the middle class and they will spend less on luxury items. Again the economy is hurt. NU was illustrating this by pointing out that is better to build yachts in America so that the money that enters the economy via the purchase of materials, the hiring of builders and sales people, the rental of property to sale the yachts stimulates growth. Tax a market past the breaking point and the money will find its way into other economies benefiting them.

Liberals don't see this because they are blinded by their desire to punish the rich. If they can deny a wealthy person an American made yacht screw the economy because in their view some greater moral justice was served. Serving some ideological version of social justice is all well and good, but the landlord wants cash.

Like John F'ing Kerry and his boat that he refused to berth in Boston because there was a very significant difference in Luxury Taxes between RI and MA?

Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2014, 06:40:57 PM »
I read all that trash and I realize just what the problem with liberals is. They are linear thinkers. That thread proves it. They focus on the yacht and what it represents to them and not on the actual point that NU is attempting to make. The point as I see it was that higher taxes causes people to alter their spending in ways that are negative to the economy. Raise taxes on the rich and they will find ways to avoid the taxes and the economy is negatively impacted. Raise taxes on the middle class and they will spend less on luxury items. Again the economy is hurt. NU was illustrating this by pointing out that is better to build yachts in America so that the money that enters the economy via the purchase of materials, the hiring of builders and sales people, the rental of property to sale the yachts stimulates growth. Tax a market past the breaking point and the money will find its way into other economies benefiting them.

Liberals don't see this because they are blinded by their desire to punish the rich. If they can deny a wealthy person an American made yacht screw the economy because in their view some greater moral justice was served. Serving some ideological version of social justice is all well and good, but the landlord wants cash.

This is an oldie, but a goodie and should be repeated often (this version is from https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/the-tax-system-explained-in-beer/):

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this…

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh would pay $7
The eighth would pay $12
The ninth would pay $18
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59
So, that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.

“Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20″. Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

The bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

“I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,”but he got $10!”

“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 06:46:16 PM »
Like John F'ing Kerry and his boat that he refused to berth in Boston because there was a very significant difference in Luxury Taxes between RI and MA?
I can't really remember but wasn't that boat built in New Zealand?
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Offline Carl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 06:55:14 PM »
NU pushes the DUmb****s towards actual reality.
It is telling that they fight it tooth and nail.

Understandable though when all they know of economics is gimme.

Offline tanstaafl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 06:55:50 PM »
I can't really remember but wasn't that boat built in New Zealand?

Yeah. That be the one.

So John F'ing went half way around the world to have his boat built. Probably because some of the rare, exotic wood railings he wanted weren't able to be imported into this country. Then still had the gall to stiff the state HE represented in the US Senate. Not to mention the shipwrights in Sturgeon Bay, WI. I guess he saved a few pennies on the sales tax that way, too.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 06:58:40 PM »
dim**** gets slapped in his own thread.

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kentuck (72,409 posts)

I am against the Clinton tax rate of 39%.
 
I think it has hurt our country and is a big reason for the growing inequality. Instead, I would support a progressive income tax rate of up to 90% on income that is not invested in job creation and betterment of our economy. Wealth for weath's sake is not good for our country or our economy.

Most production income should be taxed at 70% unless it is re-invested back into the economy. Then it would be taxed at zero percent. After all, that should be the purpose of capitalism - to make our society better - not to create individual wealth.

We need a complete over-haul of our tax system and that should be part of any Democratic platform, in my opinion.

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on point (1,832 posts)

81. So you advocate a return to the feudal times so we can all work for the aristocracy??

I mean all those luxury estates and wild parties for the rich supported lots of servants and cake eaters....

Just not an independent middle class.

No, restore tax rates and enough of this supplyside nonsense which has been proven empirically not to work

And please stop quoting ALEC and the US Chamber of Commerce for your arguments. They are old, tired and completely discredited. People here are interested in solving problems, not fighting the tools that work to keep the problems going.

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

87. Taxing luxury goods into oblivion isn't going to add 1 dime to your pocket.

Nor is allowing luxury goods to be produced and sold going to make you a serf. Get a grip already. Feudalism? Seriously?

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They are old, tired and completely discredited. People here are interested in solving problems, not fighting the tools that work to keep the problems going.

I'm citing Econ 101.

Fact -- Yachts do not materialize out of thin air. If someone wants a yacht they have to pay people to harvest the materials, others to transport those materials, others to craft, others to distribute, more to retail, some more to crew, more to house, even more to maintain. That's not counting the utilities, roads etc. that are supported and support the sector. These jobs tend to pay better than factory work because they require more skill and the buyer has more money to spend.

These are all facts.

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on point (1,832 posts)

91. Sorry the supplyside experiment evidence is in. It is a FAILURE.
 
The Chicago school of economics has led the world astray and is killing economies everywhere.

Go back to Keynes and get in touch with reality.

There can never be enough luxury yachts to support the economy for all.

What's more, investing in a yacht is NOT investing in the economy for everyone. Far better to tax that wealth off the off .01 percent and use it to invest in something that does invest in the economy, like infrastructure.

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

96. "There can never be enough luxury yachts to support the economy for all."
 




No one sector of the economy is enough to support all. Not even food, housing, education, clothing and medicine. That's why there are different sectors of the economy. Just because ONE THING cannot support an entire economy does not devalue that ONE THING. it has value to the consumer and it has value to the producer.

Computers and the internet cannot sustain the entire world economy -- yet, here you are.

And you're making-up an argument I never made. I never suggested yachts are the end all, be all of the economy. Luxury goods -- to include all personal discretionary spending -- do add to the economy. For the people who do supply luxury goods it is a very good job for them and many times they are able to sell their skills for wages above the median. Why should they be denied that opportunity to prosper?

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What's more, investing in a yacht is NOT investing in the economy for everyone. Far better to tax that wealth off the off .01 percent and use it to invest in something that does invest in the economy, like infrastructure.

To what end?

Roads don't create jobs elsewhere. Roads only have a value if there are jobs to travel to, goods to distribute, etc. (or, Heaven forfend, luxury vacations to take). Things only have value if a consumer wants them and then their value is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.

You cannot escape that fact, either.

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kentuck (72,409 posts)

102. You make a very fine Republican argument, Nuclear Unicorn...
 
Did you know that?

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

114. Did you know that isn't a rebuttal but rather an admission of defeat?
 
Your intent is to silence me and stop me from writing what I write but in actuality you're just saying X has offered an argument and that argument cannot be refuted -- which is really just another way of saying, X has the correct answer.

(X being me, not the Republicans.)

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kentuck (72,409 posts)

123. I don't want to silence you...

You are doing a pretty good job at it by yourself.

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

128. Do you have an actual rebuttal or just an accusation of Wrong-Think?

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kentuck (72,409 posts)

131. The rebuttal that I have is that supply-side economics has failed miserably...

..and you are full of shit for attempting to argue its merits here.

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

132. I don't know about supply-side economics but I do know that industries, such as yachting

produce jobs. The luxury goods do not materialize ex nihilo. That is the fact I have stated. That is the fact I have based my argument on. That is a fact that remains unrefuted.

Yachts are an easy target for some to argue against but those making such arguments tend to overlook the luxuries in their own lives; such as the computers and internet they use to grouse about the luxuries in other people's lives. Even things like bananas are a luxury. You and I may think nothing of it but for most of the world the thought of importing food from thousands of miles away is a concept that would blow their imaginations away. DU has a cooking and baking forum where people talk about spices that were shipped from around the world while most of the world those spices pass by can't find enough to fill their bellies for the night. hell, there were even wars fought over trade routes to supply spices.

And we take it all for granted. In fact, we'll get on our luxury smartphones to post on our luxury websites to bitch to the Heavens if anybody dares to interrupt our sweet gig.

Are yacht-builders, crews and mechanics the bane of our existence? No. Our arrogance and profound lack of self-awareness and gratitude will undue us.

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kentuck (72,409 posts)

139. It is not about yachts...
 
It is about people that buy yachts. They are going to buy their yachts, whatever the cost. They don't have the time or the desire to comparison shop.

Yes, it's about supply-side economics. There is no need to pretend you have never heard of it. It has been very destructive for our country and taxcuts are it's reason for existence.

It is the height of arrogance and ignorance to argue otherwise.

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Nuclear Unicorn (12,949 posts)

146. "They are going to buy their yachts, whatever the cost."
 
Unless they can go someplace else to get a better deal. John Kerry for instance. Not only did he spend the time to comparison shop he also spent the money to fly to New Zealand to buy his yacht, then he spent the money to hire a crew to sail it back for him. Now he parks it in RI because it's cheaper for him to commute to RI than pay the docking taxes in MA.

I still haven't gotten an answer about THE PEOPLE who make their livelihoods. "It's about the people that buy yachts" is the only answer my detractors have given. And probably the truest.

I get it. Y'all didn't get your yacht and y'all didn't get your ponies either. And for that sin no one else can either. Those who can buy yachts are to be hated and scorned because -- UNFAIR!

Nevermind how unfair it would be for those who make their livelihoods to lose those livelihoods. And doing so won't add a dime to anyone else's pocket. What next? Luxury home builders? Luxury cars manufacturers? The vacation industry? What other sectors of the economy should we destroy with nothing to gain from it except the smug self-satisfaction we showed them Richie Riches?

Meanwhile, everyone wants to remind me (as if I didn't know or it had any relevance to my main point) that the obscenely rich can take their money overseas. Wait. What? I'm being pilloried for supposedly espousing supply side economics but everyone else is saying low tax areas draw money away from high tax areas. Hmmm. Why do you suppose the Cayman Islands wants to draw in money with low tax rates? Or for that matter, why do you think an evil multi-national mega-corporation like Nabisco sent me a 25%-Off coupon for their products?

The sad complaint about "SUPPLY SIDE!" isn't a rebuttal. It's an attempt to make me go away. I'm not espousing supply side. I'm stating the plain fact that people earn their livelihoods from luxury goods. If you're willing to destroy the livelihood of thousands to have tantrum against a few dozen then at least have backbone to say it outright.

Yet, GM needed a bailout I don't remember anybody bitching about Cadillac getting a slice of the money. All I remember is people saying we needed to save the jobs of American workers.
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Offline tanstaafl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 07:17:51 PM »
Quote
kentuck (72,409 posts)

131. The rebuttal that I have is that supply-side economics has failed miserably...

..and you are full of shit for attempting to argue its merits here.

Oh, I don't know about that, bluegrass primitive. Supply Side Economics worked pretty good for me. Reagan's "rising tide" has lifted my boat.

Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 07:23:56 PM »
There's no way she's not going to get tombstoned.

Too much to bring over:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025853156

enjoy

Interesting find.  :hi5:  I found this kinda funny:

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Erich Bloodaxe BSN (5,056 posts)

103. Think of the poor rich people, who cannot afford to buy luxury yachts!
 
And have to make do with dinky, non-luxury yachts...

I dunno, your line of argument doesn't quite have the same ring to it as 'Think of the children!'


When you have absolutely no argument.......


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kentuck (72,409 posts)

131. The rebuttal that I have is that supply-side economics has failed miserably...

..and you are full of shit for attempting to argue its merits here.

 :rotf:  Awwwwwww......you mad, big badass?


Quote
Are yacht-builders, crews and mechanics the bane of our existence? No. Our arrogance and profound lack of self-awareness and gratitude will undue us.

Well done, Unicorn.  Well done. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 07:29:07 PM by 98ZJUSMC »
              

Liberal thinking is a two-legged stool and magical thinking is one of the legs, the other is a combination of self-loating and misanthropy.  To understand it, you would have to be able to sit on that stool while juggling two elephants, an anvil and a fragmentation grenade, sans pin.

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Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 07:30:28 PM »
dim**** gets slapped in his own thread.

I'm citing Econ 101.

Fact -- Yachts do not materialize out of thin air. If someone wants a yacht they have to pay people to harvest the materials, others to transport those materials, others to craft, others to distribute, more to retail, some more to crew, more to house, even more to maintain. That's not counting the utilities, roads etc. that are supported and support the sector. These jobs tend to pay better than factory work because they require more skill and the buyer has more money to spend.

These are all facts.

To what end?

Roads don't create jobs elsewhere. Roads only have a value if there are jobs to travel to, goods to distribute, etc. (or, Heaven forfend, luxury vacations to take). Things only have value if a consumer wants them and then their value is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.

You cannot escape that fact, either.

Rational Person: OK, let us say Person A makes widgets and Person B makes nothing.  Person A gets one dollar.  Person B gets nothing.  Is that fair?

Dummie: What color are the widgets?

RP: What?

Dummie: What color are the widgets?  If we are going to base an economy on widgets, we need to know the color.

RP: It is an example.  I am not saying to run an economy on widgets.  I could have used "wankers" for my example.

Dummie: Wanker? I thought you said widget.  You are so busted.  You contradict yourself!

RP: Widgets or wankers, it doesn't matter.  It is the underlying point that matters.

Dummie: You can't even make up your mind on what the economy is about and what colors you want them to use!  You sound like a rethuglican!

RP: *sigh* Third base...
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Offline J P Sousa

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 07:38:52 PM »
Well, reading through this thresd, I can imagine being there in person hearing all the DUmmies increasingly getting LOUDER as they fumble around trying to argue.

Yeah, I've been there done that, DUmmies eventually try to shout you down when they don't have the facts.  :-)

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Offline miskie

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 08:16:12 PM »
Yeah, the Unicorn is well on the way to extinction.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 08:28:32 PM »
Rational Person: OK, let us say Person A makes widgets and Person B makes nothing.  Person A gets one dollar.  Person B gets nothing.  Is that fair?

Dummie: What color are the widgets?

RP: What?

Dummie: What color are the widgets?  If we are going to base an economy on widgets, we need to know the color.

RP: It is an example.  I am not saying to run an economy on widgets.  I could have used "wankers" for my example.

Dummie: Wanker? I thought you said widget.  You are so busted.  You contradict yourself!

RP: Widgets or wankers, it doesn't matter.  It is the underlying point that matters.

Dummie: You can't even make up your mind on what the economy is about and what colors you want them to use!  You sound like a rethuglican!

RP: *sigh* Third base...

nailed it
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Offline Carl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 08:39:40 PM »
Broken window economics is universally repudiated yet that is the basis for every DUmbass thinking.
Economic results will always be stratified in a free market but the key word there is free,one can move up or down.
DUmbasses wish for a monolithic economic model,yet always think,that despite their desire to do nothing but stone out,they will somehow land at the right seat of the messiah because they are true believers.   

Offline tanstaafl

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Re: Dead Unicorn walking!
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2014, 09:03:40 PM »
Broken window economics is universally repudiated yet that is the basis for every DUmbass thinking.
Economic results will always be stratified in a free market but the key word there is free,one can move up or down.
DUmbasses wish for a monolithic economic model,yet always think,that despite their desire to do nothing but stone out,they will somehow land at the right seat of the messiah because they are true believers.

It's the DUmmie Holy Grail. Somehow, they believe that if you overtax the rich, all the money will magically end up in their hands.

If a DUmmie was standing in front me with his/her/it's hand out, I would ask them to hold out the other, to catch their defecation, and ask them to report back as to which hand was filled first. If the Government ever lost all sanity and returned to the tax rates of the sixties and seventies, there would be no way they would let it go to common people. There are just too many unless things to research. And that requires cash.