Illegally downloading songs - is that immoral?

[FaC]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025662965

It is a tight race - 49% say illegal downloads are immoral but 46% say they are not immoral....

Star Member ZombieHorde (27,590 posts)

According to your values, is illegally downloading a song, TV show, or movie immoral?

For example, downloading a song off Youtube.
102 votes, 7 passes | Time left: Unlimited
   Yes, illegal downloads are immoral.
50 (49%)
   No, illegal downloads are not immoral.
46 (45%)
   I used to be a pinball champion, but that was before...the incident.
6 (6%)
   7 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
0   

I guess that if you never make anything then it would be expected that you have no moral qualms about stealing...

Nye Bevan (17,292 posts)
15. Immoral if a legal download is available for sale.

Moral if the content owner chooses not to sell legal downloads. Also moral if you already have bought the content.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
18. It's stealing. Is that immoral?

If you take something that's not yours, what difference does it make how you do it?

Star Member davidpdx (16,255 posts)
24. Some how I knew the morality police would have showed up by now

The OP was giving Youtube as one example, not saying one was better than another.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
33. Morality police? What makes intellectual property different than any other kind of property?

davidpdx (16,255 posts)
34. If it is being for your own use and not being sold there is no theft

So go pound sand buddy.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
36. So it's OK to break into someone's house and steal stuff as long as you don't fence it?

That's brilliant!

DanTex (6,295 posts)
40. Well, one thing that makes it different is that stealing a physical object means taking it away

from the owner. If you steal something from the house, the object goes missing. If you steal an mp3, you're actually just making a copy of the mp3, so the owner gets to keep his or her original also.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
43. Unless the owner of the IP has authorized its duplication, you are taking something from him.

I'm a decent photographer. I'm fine with people looking at my pictures and I like it if they enjoy them. I would be upset, however, if someone copied my work regardless of what they did with it because I want it to remain unique. Is that not my prerogative?

DanTex (6,295 posts)
50. Not really. You have to admit there's a difference between physically stealing something

and making an unauthorized copy. That doesn't mean it's right, but it does mean that the moral question is different.

As far as your photography remaining unique, that's different also from downloading a song. It's closer to a privacy issue (though not exactly that either). Songs that are recorded for sale are obviously not meant to be kept unique. But even in your case, I imagine you would much rather someone (particularly someone anonymous on the internet) made an unauthorized copy than someone stealing the original so that you couldn't enjoy it either.

Intellectual property is simply not the same as physical property. Laws exist to protect intellectual property, and they exist for a reason, but it's not the same moral question as breaking into someone's house and stealing physical objects.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
59. There are differences in the examples you gave, but all of them are wrong.

IMO, doing something you know to be wrong is immoral and that was the OP's question. If the owner of the IP doesn't want his work copied, you taking (stealing) something by doing so. The fact that you consider what you are taking to be of little or no value is irrelevant.

DanTex (6,295 posts)
75. Maybe. I'm just saying that it's different from physical theft.

The moral question is more complicated. IP in general is more complicated than physical property. Once it is created, the supply is infinite. Legally, the creator is given a temporary monopoly as a reward, and in order to incentivize people to invent things. The point is to mimic physical property in such a way that society as a whole benefits.

When you pirate songs, you are violating the law, sure, but are you harming society? Are you harming the person who created the IP? That depends. One one hand, you can copy IP with the intention of selling it for your own profit. This is clearly immoral. On the other hand, you can find a copy of an old song that is no longer being sold for profit anywhere but is still under copyright. Copying this song is a violation of copyright law, but it is net beneficial to society -- you get to listen to the song, and nothing else changes. And there are other scenarios. It's not as simple as stealing a physical object from the owner.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
84. See Post 82. I think it's easier to just respect the wishes of the IP owner

You don't have to twist yourself into an ethical pretzel justifying why not doing so is OK.

98. I don't see this as an "ethical pretzel". I think it's a good thing to reason things out in detail.

Here's an article I read by Lawrence Lessig on the topic. He brings up a lot of interesting points.

What about used books or libraries, for example? In both cases, people are getting benefits from IP without compensating the creator.

http://www.authorama.com/free-culture-8.html

mythology (1,984 posts)
88. The difference seems to be that

People want to not acknowledge that they are stealing because they understand stealing is wrong, but they want to justify their actions.

DanTex (6,295 posts)
52. Just to add, in college, pretty much everyone I knew copied songs without authorization.

None of them would have stolen stuff from a store or someone's home, even if there were no chance of getting caught (OK, maybe one or two of them would have...). And it's not just that it "feels" different, it actually is different.

If you pirate a song, the only way you are hurting anyone is if you would otherwise have paid for the song if you couldn't have gotten it for free (or if you intend to sell pirated copies for profit yourself). But if your other option were to not listen to the song at all, then by pirating it, you are increasing your well-being without reducing anyone else's. In this case, pirating the song even helps the artist, because their work gets more exposure.

And the thing is, many people who pirate songs are in the situation I just described.

badtoworse (5,501 posts)
64. Now you are just rationalizing

If the record company sued you for piracy, do you think your argument would hold up in court?

DanTex (6,295 posts)
73. What I'm doing is reasoning. Reasoning is important.

What happens in court and what is moral are two different things. Breaking the law is not always the same thing as doing something immoral, and following the law isn't always the same thing as doing something moral.

Badtoworse just needs to accept that he has fallen into a group where 49% (by their own admission) seems to think that it is just fine to steal stuff that is not theirs. Perhaps he should keep different company.

[DumbAss Tanker]

DanTex (6,295 posts)
73. What I'm doing is reasoning. Reasoning is important.

No, what you are doing is rationalizing, which is something entirely different.

[DUmpsterDiver]

The Dumplings steal tax money for their cradle to grave programs from those that choose to work for a living.

[txradioguy]

Not immoral at all.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I DL'ed a lot of songs from Rage Against the  Machine.

But I'm sure they'd be the first to tell you property is theft.

[Dori]

Awhile ago it was 51% that said it was not immoral.

Dummy is trying to prove a point from another thread;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025661713

Star Member ZombieHorde (27,591 posts)

47. Many DUers are openly into thievery.
 
Many will admit to illegally downloading music and movies. 

Live and Learn (3,357 posts)

57. Really? Many?
 
I assume you have proof of that and will post it shortly. And please don't let it be just a few because I could post a few that suggest racism and fascism on DU too. But those would be very few.

Star Member ZombieHorde (27,591 posts)

59. I can't find the old poll I made about illegal downloads, so I made a new one.
 
Let's see how DUers vote. Maybe there will even be an interesting discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/

I think ZombieHorde proved his point....

[obumazombie]

No, what you are doing is rationalizing, which is something entirely different.

Let's not forget justifying.
Very little difference between justify and just a lie.

[GOBUCKS]

I wonder what the results would be if a DUmp poll asked if it's moral to steal merchandise from Wal-Mart.

[Ralph Wiggum]

DUmmies have any morals?  News to me.

[thundley4]

I wonder what the results would be if a DUmp poll asked if it's moral to steal merchandise from Wal-Mart.

They pretty much answered that by denouncing Walmart for closing a store to keep the Ferguson Looters out.

[Big Dog]

davidpdx (16,255 posts)
34. If it is being for your own use and not being sold there is no theft

So go pound sand buddy.

This asshole is the reason doors have locks.

Come and try to take my property "for your own use", asshole. You'll learn a hard lesson, fast.

[Carl]

The DUmbasses that say it is immoral are not being truthful.
The entire life outlook of those useless mutants is to get stuff they want forcibly taken from others that already have it.

[thundley4]

On a side note. Bono apologized for Apple giving away their last CD for free. 

[freedumb2003b]

"So you've decided to steal cable. Myth: Cable piracy is wrong. Fact: Cable companies are big faceless corporations, which makes it okay."

[Dori]

I wonder what else they would rip off?

Electricity?  Water?

[freedumb2003b]

I wonder what else they would rip off?

Electricity?  Water?

IIRC a few months ago they were discussing how a bunch of deadbeats (Detroit?) didn't pay their bills and had their electricity shut off.

Again, if memory serves me, the upshot was (let's all say it together): "Electricity should be free."

[BlueStateSaint]

IIRC a few months ago they were discussing how a bunch of deadbeats (Detroit?) didn't pay their bills and had their electricity shut off.

Again, if memory serves me, the upshot was (let's all say it together): "Electricity should be free."

If it was Detroit, it was water.

[freedumb2003b]

If it was Detroit, it was water.

Hmmm... anyone remember that discussion?  You are probably right, but somehow "electricity" is what I recall.

You know what they say, memory is the first thing to.... what was I talking about again?

[BlueStateSaint]

Hmmm... anyone remember that discussion?  You are probably right, but somehow "electricity" is what I recall.

You know what they say, memory is the first thing to.... what was I talking about again?

I like pie!

[thundley4]

Hmmm... anyone remember that discussion?  You are probably right, but somehow "electricity" is what I recall.

You know what they say, memory is the first thing to.... what was I talking about again?

It was water, because the UN was talking about water being a human right.

[Chris_]

I like pie!

You know what I like with pie.  A nice, cold glass of water.

[freedumb2003b]

It was water, because the UN was talking about water being a human right.

Ah, now I remember!  I wonder where in the heck I got electricity from .. maybe an older thread?  Perhaps an individual primitive was on the verge of power shutdown...

I am awaiting the UN to declare wireless internet a basic human right...

[thundley4]

Ah, now I remember!  I wonder where in the heck I got electricity from .. maybe an older thread?  Perhaps an individual primitive was on the verge of power shutdown...

I am awaiting the UN to declare wireless internet a basic human right...

ObamaPhones are already a human right it seems.

[freedumb2003b]

You know what I like with pie.  A nice, cold glass of water.

Not a cold glass of electricity?

Speaking of pie, I was in the mood for pumpkin pie so I picked one up from the freezer section (I don't bake and the wife can't have white flour).  It ended up being some kind of strange pumpkin mousse thing: GHASTLY!

Not only did it put me off of the one I got, I lost my crave for pumpkin pie in general :(
 

[Chris_]

Not a cold glass of electricity?

Speaking of pie, I was in the mood for pumpkin pie so I picked one up from the freezer section (I don't bake and the wife can't have white flour).  It ended up being some kind of strange pumpkin mousse thing: GHASTLY!

Not only did it put me off of the one I got, I lost my crave for pumpkin pie in general

I don't care for pumpkin pie either.