Manny Goldstein calls Founding Fathers traitors, dump agrees

[I_B_Perky]

The OP:

MannyGoldstein (26,353 posts)

America's Founders were traitors
Armed rebellion against their country, all for some notion of "Liberty".

Betrayal!

Too bad the King didn't hang 'em high.

Regards,

Snowden-Sux! Manny

The Link:

Manny steps in it?

And awaaay we go:

Scootaloo (11,109 posts)
2. Liberty of their pocketbooks, maybe

You notice it was all rich people screaming for insurrection... and one of the first things they did was seize the wealth of people who didn't join them.

Just like most such rebellions, it was the few, striking for more control and power in an orgy of blood and bullets. And in fact the whole thing damn near fell apart, the same way the French revolution would a few years alter, and the Russian revolution a century after that.

Why didn't it?

Well, because the French and the Russians didn't have Indians and Africans to use as an external threat to rally around, instead turning on each other. Had it just been British colonials in the region, thethirteen states would have just kept on fighting each other, and probably would have been recaptured about a decade later.

So the Founding Fathers were looking for power?  Hmmm.... the US Constitution says different.

MannyGoldstein (26,353 posts)
6. I think it was a little more complex than that.

The thing got rolling due to the rabble in Massachusetts, who were actually a fairly principled and literate rabble. For example, > 90% of women in Mass were literate at that time, and women could sue for divorce. John Adams led the defense of the Boston Massacre Redcoats even though he hated them, because he felt that everyone deserved a fair trial.

The rich and powerful did jump in front of the thing, but they were also pretty principled, I think, as these things go. They definitely gave power back to the people rather than the usual "oh yeah, Democracy, we're not quite ready for that... But one of these days..."

Anyway, that's my take. I just donned my asbestos undies in anticipation of the responses to come.

My mole? You decide.

GoneFishin (1,171 posts)
7. So back then Indians and Africans were like terrorists and telemarketers. nt

Wait... what?


What follows is some comments that I won't comment on:

sabrina 1 (43,357 posts)
41. There were some principles involved and an attempt to give some power to the people. Like all other

groups of people, there were vast differences in beliefs and politics among them. To paint all of them with the same brush is pretty odd, for a Liberal frankly.

John Adams eg, detested slavery, never owned a slave and did not want people who did, in his home. His wife called slavery in some of her letters to him 'a terrible evil'. To be that enlightened during that time period shows how 'progressive' they were. He also truly believed in actual justice. It got him in trouble sometimes with more simplistic and emotional thinkers. But he always did the right thing, no matter who hated him for it. Wish we had a few of him around today.

There were others whose values were admirable, and some who were in it for their own self interests. But to say ALL of them were? That is ridiculous, and shows a lack of knowledge of the people who joined the Revolution. See what happened afterwards when they were finally free of the British Empire, all went back to their various viewpoints and many of them fought furiously with each other over principles and mostly, politics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Response to Scootaloo (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 19, 2014, 02:40 AM

Star Member JDPriestly (43,262 posts)
60. Liberty from the rule of the British aristocracy and parliament.

The balance of power in a society, accompanies the balance of property in land. The only possible way, then, of preserving the balance of power on the side of equal liberty and public virtue,is to make the acquisition of land easy to every member of society; to make the division of the land into small quantities, so that the multitude may be possessed of landed estates. John Adams From a letter to James Sullivan, 1776.

<blah, blah, blah>

Exposethefrauds (91 posts)
69. It Damn Sure was not about taxes becasue the tax burden was LOWER for the Colonists then it was for

a subject living in England at the time.

Dummies swing at the Pinata and misses.

LittleBlue (5,573 posts)
3. You're only a traitor if you lose

If you win, you're a revolutionary.

I guess OWS did not win.

SteveG (2,080 posts)
5. Yupper's

you are a traitor if you lose and patriot if you win.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Response to LittleBlue (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:43 PM

oneofthe99 (168 posts)
24. Freedom Fighter , Revolutionary, Terrorist ...sometimes the lines are blurred

Now the Founding Fathers were terrorists?

NuclearDem (7,397 posts)
4. Maybe don't play the liberty card when talking about a bunch of slave owners

Who only thought it fit to give voting rights to landowning white men.

It was about money and the inability to officially protest their money being taken.

Dummie hits it in a round about way.

sabrina 1 (43,357 posts)
42. 'A bunch of slave owners'. Don't know much about those historical figures do you?? I've seen this

'collective' attack on those who founded this country before, but never on a Dem forum, until lately.

It was always used when ever we accused the Bush gang of War Criminals and Constitution Violators, of doing just that, violating their oaths to defend and protect it.

Right Wingers decided in their insane loyalty to one moronic politician, that if the Constitution was the issue, then why were 'you Liberals defending a bunch of slave owners'. Iow, total loyalty to one man made them think, 'which one, Bush or the Founding Fathers', and the decision was easy for those cultists.

It was ignorant, AND transparent then, it remains so. Thanks for the trip down memory lane when I was naive enough to think you could actually reason with Bush loyalists. That notion was quickly dispelled, thankfully.

Booosh!!!

NuclearDem (7,397 posts)
74. Blah blah blah civil religion bullshit blah blah blah.

I refuse to kneel down and worship at the feet of a bunch of men who had a handful of good ideas.

Why you choose to do so is your problem.

And no, before you try to imply so, this has **** all to do with Snowden, the NSA, or warrantless surveillance. And no, it's also not me saying the Constitution is just a damn piece of paper.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Response to NuclearDem (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 19, 2014, 01:54 PM

Star Member sabrina 1 (43,357 posts)
104. What utter garbage. You tried to diminish the importance of the Rule of Law in this country

using a now very familiar tactic, ATTACK THE FOUNDING FATHERS and everyone will 'LOOK OVER THERE'. Use 'slavery', 'that'll 'get' those Liberals. Are you familiar with Karl Rove's weekend courses on how to attack the FACTS those damn Liberals keep bringing up? Got any memory at all of the Fake Journalist, trained by Rove in the WH Press Corps??

Use words like 'worship', 'hero' blah, blah as you so eloquently stated. Old old, worn out failed tactics that WILL NOT distract from the crimes committed by people in powerful positions in this government.

I know that the truth is like a red rag to a bull when someone is on a mission to try to suppress it. It must be painful. It is, it shows when people resort to childish Rove type rants AGAINST the Rule of Law for one reason only in most cases, because for some defending and protecting a PERSON, trumps EVERYTHING, including their own rights.

You are free to throw YOUR rights out the window but you don't get to throw OURS away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #104)

Sat Apr 19, 2014, 02:45 PM

NuclearDem (7,397 posts)
106. Blah blah blah assumptions blah blah blah.

Since you clearly have not read a single one of my posts ever, and therefore know that I'm in favor of:

-Reigning in the NSA
-Holding members of both the previous and current administration responsible for war crimes and violations of civil liberties.
-Holding Wall Street responsible for the crimes it's committed.
-Not prosecuting Snowden for whistleblowing
-Slashing the defense budget and ending the pointless wars.
-Abolishing capitalism.
-Ending the War on Drugs and all the other failed racist police programs.

But since I don't worship at the feet of the Founders, I'm clearly in favor of throwing our liberties out the window! Yep, you caught me!

Get back to me when you've actually done some research on the term civic religion, the damage it's done by feeding the nationalist fringe of the Right, and how you're directly feeding into that nonsense by whitewashing everything about them.

You've had a habit of making stupid assumptions about what I believe and creating a false dichotomy where I either unquestioningly agree with everything the lunatic hypocritical anti-US-imperialism fringe says or I'm an authoritarian MIC apologist, and you need to stop.

Then we got this comment... its good... but it will fly over the dummies head at an altitude of 70,000 feet:

truth2power (7,648 posts)
75. "loyalty to one man.." Yes. Probably not a good idea to pledge undying loyalty

to any one person.

 


The rest isn't worth bring over. Pretty big bonfire. Sure to grow.

[Delmar]

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #42)Sat Apr 19, 2014, 10:12 AM
NuclearDem (7,398 posts)
74. Blah blah blah civil religion bullshit blah blah blah.
I refuse to kneel down and worship at the feet of a bunch of men who had a handful of good ideas.
Why you choose to do so is your problem.
And no, before you try to imply so, this has **** all to do with Snowden, the NSA, or warrantless surveillance. And no, it's also not me saying the Constitution is just a damn piece of paper

A criticism that doesn't sting too much since it comes from a jack nut who hasn't had a good idea in his entire worthless life.

Educate yourself, Nucueler DUfus:


It was written for kids so you might be able to understand it if someone helps you with the big words.

[98ZJUSMC]

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #42)Sat Apr 19, 2014, 10:12 AM
NuclearDem (7,398 posts)
74. Blah blah blah civil religion bullshit blah blah blah.
I refuse to kneel down and worship at the feet of a bunch of men who had a handful of good ideas.
Why you choose to do so is your problem.
And no, before you try to imply so, this has **** all to do with Snowden, the NSA, or warrantless surveillance. And no, it's also not me saying the Constitution is just a damn piece of paper

Huh?

[GOP Congress]

It is now in the open. Harry Reid has VINDICATED BantheGOP, and the DUmp is getting into gear.

This is what they think of the Founding Fathers...

[txradioguy]

More proof to me that the DUmmies would have been sympathizers to the Crown and done everything they could have to subvert the Revolution had they been alive during that time.

[YupItsMe]

Wait, The Revolutionary War was Bush's fault?

[Carl]

More proof to me that the DUmmies would have been sympathizers to the Crown and done everything they could have to subvert the Revolution had they been alive during that time.

Without question.
All the British would have to do is promise them handouts and tell them the Founders were trying to keep them from getting them and there would not have been a shot fired by a redcoat.

It is stunning the visceral hatred the left has for every aspect of this country while demanding it provide them with their every whim.

[Skul]

Wait, The Revolutionary War was Bush's fault?

And his little dog, too. 

[miskie]

Seems like the primitives are a bunch of big-government Tories.


The American Revolutionaries were Whigs. Eventually the GOP replaced the Whig party over differences on slavery. Most of the pro slavery Whigs joined what had already evolved into the Democrats.

Democrats have been as they are today since the earliest days of America. They are for big, centralized government. Even slavery mirrors this belief - with the Slave Owner as 'The Government' and the slaves as its serfs, all 'equal' under 'the law'.

[USA4ME]

sabrina 1

'A bunch of slave owners'. Don't know much about those historical figures do you?? I've seen this 'collective' attack on those who founded this country before, but never on a Dem forum, until lately.

It was always used when ever we accused the Bush gang of War Criminals and Constitution Violators, of doing just that, violating their oaths to defend and protect it.

Right Wingers decided in their insane loyalty to one moronic politician, that if the Constitution was the issue, then why were 'you Liberals defending a bunch of slave owners'. Iow, total loyalty to one man made them think, 'which one, Bush or the Founding Fathers', and the decision was easy for those cultists.

It was ignorant, AND transparent then, it remains so. Thanks for the trip down memory lane when I was naive enough to think you could actually reason with Bush loyalists. That notion was quickly dispelled, thankfully.

That's hilarious.

Hardly a day goes by on any liberal website where the Founding Fathers aren't called old white men slave owners.

And if any RWers threw anything in your face, it was to show your own hypocrisy when it comes to your viewpoints of the US Constitution. I mean if you want to invoke the US Constitution in your argument, it's hard to do that when you say it was written by a bunch of ole white men, racist, homophobe, bigots. Kinda kills your whole foundation. Of course, you're too dumb to realize that, sabrina the idiot.

.

[Tucker]

2/3rds of the people in Boston remained loyal to the crown. I'd hazard a guess and say that that ratio is true today as well. A attitude passed on from generation to generation.

As to John Adams, he was considered the original conservative, a front runner to the Republican Party. His close buddy, slave holder Thomas Jefferson, was the first leader of the democrat party.

democrats all throughout our history have believed in the right to own/control slaves. It's no different today. The modern plantation is the ghettos or large cities. The colored folk are under the thumb of the democrat party and their offer of free money. Every election you hear the democrats say vote for me or the Republicans will stop your free money and make you get a job. The democrat party policy of pandering with free money for votes has been a major reason why generation after generation of colored folk can't improve themselves financially. They have become dependent on their overseer.   

[miskie]

That's hilarious.

Hardly a day goes by on any liberal website where the Founding Fathers aren't called old white men slave owners.

Ever take a look at 'Flocabulary' ? - their songs are used as a way to teach inner city youths. Check out this song, O.D.W.M.

[youtube=560,315]-WZWmTZLPWo[/youtube]

And people wonder why Rush Limbaugh decided to write a series of children's books..

and the lyrics..

Yo, he step up in the House, people call for joy,
But his slaves be thinking they’re going to jump this boy
For spitting all that hypocrisy, talking about equality,
But beating brothers who ain’t picking up his cotton properly.
He wanted people to choose their religion like dim sum.
Thought the Pres was too powerful like King Kong.
Listen to this, not an abolitionist,
We’re hitting this, this is softball, slow-pitch. (Witch!)
Check the map, western half is black and dark.
Buy Louisiana with bonds. We’re rich like Häagen-Dazs.
Jefferson sends out Lewis and Clark,
Forty men, two-by-two like Noah’s ark.
West on the Missouri, winter in Bismarck,
This is nature dawg, this ain’t Central Park.
Indian teenager named Sacagawea joins the group.
We’re the Hekawi like F-troop.
Guides them through Rockies like MapQuest,
Met Indians and bears, no time to nap or rest.
On the real, expedition mapped the whole west.
Came home, Lewis killed himself, he was depressed.
Who’s going to mess with him? He goes by Thomas Jefferson,
The dude who drafted the independent declaration.
The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
With the blood of patriots and tyrants, all right.

O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
We’re talking ’bout some
Old Dead White Men.

There’s a thin line between a hater and a lover.
Burr and Hamilton running for governor, but run for cover.
They’re dueling. Hamilton missed the mark like Crystal Pepsi,
Burr shot him in the face like Dick Cheney.
What’s amazing, kid, is what came after it:
Burr tried to form the United States of Aaron Burr,
Got caught, tried for treason, gave many reasons,
Washed his hands, jumped bail to France. (Levez les mains.)
Jefferson’s chilling in Paris, thinking lofty thoughts,
One of his visiting slaves steals his heart.
She’s dressed in yellow, she says "hello,
You probably noticed me in the fields of Monticello."
Jefferson and Sally Hemings sitting in a tree,
M-A-K-I-N-G many babies.
First come scandal, then comes more.
Now Jefferson’s got his face on Mount Rushmore.

. . . Jefferson, Jackson,
Madison,Washington,
Monroe, Adams,
John Quincy Adams . . .

O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
We’re talking ’bout some
Old Dead White Men.

Free Lemonade! Free OJ, like Johnny Cochran.
Monroe Doctrine says Europe don’t come a-knocking.
Don’t mess with our continent; we ought to get a fence around
All of South America to keep you people out of it.
Called it the Era of Good Feelings but they’re wrong.
White men getting richer than Enron,
They’re steppin’ on Indians, women, and blacks.
Era of Good Feelings doesn’t cover the facts.
Andrew Jackson thinks he’s a tough guy,
Killing more Indians than there are stars in the sky.
Illegal wars in Florida, killing the Seminole.
Saying "hello" then putting the Creek in hellholes.
Like Adolf Hitler, he had a Final Solution.
"Go away Indians! I don’t want you to live here anymore!"
Cherokee at the Supreme Court appealed.
They got the boot, they had to walk down the Trail of Tears.

O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
O.D.W.M.
We’re talking ’bout some
Old Dead White Men.

[HawkHogan]

The Founding Fathers created the greatest form of government in history and the Dummies insinuate that they were merely greedy rich guys hoping to increase their slice of the pie. 

Meanwhile, the Dummies preferred form of government, socialism, has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions.

[Zathras]

NuclearDem (7,397 posts)
74. Blah blah blah civil religion bullshit blah blah blah.

I refuse to kneel down and worship at the feet of a bunch of men who had a handful of good ideas.

But kneeling down to worship a man who wants to ruin America with his policies willingness to lie to the American people is perfectly ok. Got it.

[wasp69]

Democrats have been as they are today since the earliest days of America. They are for big, centralized government. Even slavery mirrors this belief - with the Slave Owner as 'The Government' and the slaves as its serfs, all 'equal' under 'the law'.

Wait a minute, what?  Are you seriously saying there is no difference between today's democrat party and the Party of Jefferson?

[Dori]

Seems like the primitives are a bunch of big-government Tories.

Yes. Too bad we can't run them off to Canada like the Patriots did
after the Revolution.

[DefiantSix]

Wait a minute, what?  Are you seriously saying there is no difference between today's democrat party and the Party of Jefferson?

Given how quickly the likes of Andy Jackson ("John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it") rose up in Jefferson's wake, I would go so far as to say that yes, there is little significant difference between the modern Democrat Party, and the party that rose up around Jefferson, using and abusing Jefferson's name for it's continued legitimacy.

[miskie]

Wait a minute, what?  Are you seriously saying there is no difference between today's democrat party and the Party of Jefferson?

Not at all -

I compared the Democrats to the Tories, and stated that in one way or the other, primitives have always been part of the United States. The Northeastern liberal elites were the Federalists at the time of Jefferson, which he opposed. Once the Democratic-Republicans self destructed, the primitives aligned under Andrew Jackson's Democrat party, the more conservative members became the National Republicans, later the Whigs*, then back to Republicans.

*The National Republicans dissolved over slavery - the pro slavery types joined the Democrats, the remainder became the Whigs.

 The real kooky primitives became the Anti-Masons - who were the prototypes to the Alex Jones types we have today -- the whole shadow government, Builderberg's, etc etc.. Back then they blamed the Freemasons for everything... and the Jews.


Anyway, sorry for the confusion. The Democrats of today really aren't the party of Jefferson, They are the party of Andrew Jackson.  

[miskie]

Given how quickly the likes of Andy Jackson ("John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it") rose up in Jefferson's wake, I would go so far as to say that yes, there is little significant difference between the modern Democrat Party, and the party that rose up around Jefferson, using and abusing Jefferson's name for it's continued legitimacy.

Indeed. Such is the way of the 'Democrats'.

Even then they enjoyed what would later be coined as 'Orwellian' usage of words and devices.

Democrats aren't Democratic.
The Federalists stood against the separation of powers and were for concentrating power in the executive branch.
..And calling themselves 'The Party of Jefferson' is laughable, as Jefferson would want nothing to do with today's Democrats.

[miskie]

Yes. Too bad we can't run them off to Canada like the Patriots did
after the Revolution.

Canada smartened up. Unlike the United States, Canada protects its borders.

[I_B_Perky]

Not at all -

I compared the Democrats to the Tories, and stated that in one way or the other, primitives have always been part of the United States. The Northeastern liberal elites were the Federalists at the time of Jefferson, which he opposed. Once the Democratic-Republicans self destructed, the primitives aligned under Andrew Jackson's Democrat party, the more conservative members became the National Republicans, later the Whigs*, then back to Republicans.

*The National Republicans dissolved over slavery - the pro slavery types joined the Democrats, the remainder became the Whigs.

 The real kooky primitives became the Anti-Masons - who were the prototypes to the Alex Jones types we have today -- the whole shadow government, Builderberg's, etc etc.. Back then they blamed the Freemasons for everything... and the Jews.


Anyway, sorry for the confusion. The Democrats of today really aren't the party of Jefferson, They are the party of Andrew Jackson.  

The dem party of today is pretty close to being the communist party if you ask me. Might be a few minor differences.