http://www.democraticunderground.com/115739187Oh my.
Skins's island is pretty boring today, so off I went to the cooking and baking forum.
For those who don't know, the spitball primitive's a chef.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:20 PM
How do you maintain your cutlery?
It was a dirt-slow night at work (we aren't doing NYC Restaurant Week Month, we have no business till March) so I was sharpening up my knives and attracted some attention; I ended up teaching an impromptu sharpening class to everybody from the dishwashers to Chef proper.
Anyway - all cooks (should) know that sharp knives are critical, and they must always be kept that way. I'm an outlier by any standard, I hand-sharpen on Japanese waterstones to a literal mirror finish. What do y'all do to keep your knives sharp? This isn't meant to be any kind of a demo or informative OP, more a whole tips-and-tricks thread.
BainsBane (23,305 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:25 PM
1. I use a Dia Diamond Stone
I wish I were better at it or liked doing it better. I need to flatten the stone but haven't gotten around to it.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:33 PM
2. There's some tricks for using stones.
That's the DMT bench stones, right? Sorry, I'm a total knife geek, I know steels, construction, brands, sharpening, all of it. Comes with the territory.
Anyway. Try the Sharpie trick, it's a great way to get a feel for the edge angle (which is everything). And you don't need to flatten as much as you may think, as long as the stone is even across the blade, on the short dimension, it can be as deeply dished as you can stand. One of the best edges I ever did started on a 1000 that was damn near an inch deep in the middle.
BainsBane (23,305 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:39 PM
3. Yes, that's it.
This is my knife.
after which a picture of a knife
A Hiromoto Aogami super steel 240 mm gyotu.
Maybe I won't worry about flattening the stone. The knife geeks online go on about it constantly. I just can't care about the details that much. I just want a good, sharp knife.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:49 PM
4. Damn, that's a really nice knife.
Better than 99.5% of what home cooks use, and most professionals too...not that they make poor choices but aogami Super is one hell of a steel. And that's an amazing price for it! Pity they don't make sujihikis.
To get technical, what grit stones are you using? To get any advantage out of that knife over a Wusthof, you need to start it at 1000 grit and then polish the edge on a 4000 or 6000 - it needs to shine like a mirror. My set of 4 was obscenely expensive, but you can get a really nice 1000/4000 double-sided stone from JCK, same place you got that pic, for cheap.
Here's my crown jewel - Mizuno Tanrejo Akitada Hontanren 240mm wa-gyuto:
after which a picture of a knife
BainsBane (23,305 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:15 AM
11. I only have an 1000 grit stone.
I know I'm not doing as much with sharpening the knife as I should. I bought it about four years ago after doing a good deal of research online. It has proved to be an excellent choice. It has a carbon cutting blade but is covered around the edges in a stain resistant steel.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:19 AM
12. Yeah, "hontanren" construction.
It's a great way to go, makes caring for the blade much easier. Mine uses "normal" carbon steel which leaves the blade able to rust but it's incredibly thin and durable.
If you can afford it, get a good 6000 grit stone, or a combination, and polish the edge on the fine grit after you do the 1000. You'll be completely amazed.
Major Nikon (13,578 posts) Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:55 PM
5. I use a Chef's Choice electric sharpener
I used to sharpen all my knives by hand and steel, but this is quite the chore given the number of knives I have. The Chef's Choice makes life a lot easier. I have the 3 stage model and although it's electric, I very rarely use the electric sharpening stage as it's really only intended for knives that are really dull or need reshaping. The primary sharpening stage is just a pull through and requires no electricity. The 3rd stage is for honing/polishing, is electric and basically replaces a steel and/or a strap. I was a bit skeptical of getting one since I had sharpened my knives by hand for years, but I've been using it for a number of years since and am sold on it. I think it's probably possible to get a better edge by hand, but you'd have to be pretty meticulous and even then I think it would be hard to objectively tell the difference. The angles are all set and pretty much impossible to mess up unless you use it incorrectly.
I agree that sharp knives are critical and I would argue are more safe than dull knives. The key is to keep them sharp all the time by maintaining the edge.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:05 AM
6. I have one of those and use it pretty regularly.
It's perfect for mandoline and food processor blades as well as most of my home-use Western knives. It's pretty much ideal for "classic" Western steels at typical edge angles.
It's much more than possible to get a better edge by hand though, if you break from tradition and are using non-European alloys and blade designs. Like BainsBane's aogami Super blade; it's a very hard high-tungsten alloy with an extremely fine grain structure that benefits from being taken down to a much shallower angle (11-15 vs. the German standard 22) on a much finer stone (8000+ vs. 1000). Polishing Western steel is actually counterproductive; waterstones get so fine they smooth the steel to the point where the carbide inclusions actually "fall out" and the edge turns to dough. Had it happen.
But, on the other hand, when I take the time to put my 5" petty knife across all four stones, 1000 to 16,000 (14.7-0.97µm) grit...I have used it to shave. Quite well.
Major Nikon (13,578 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:45 AM
7. If I were to buy any Japanese knives I wouldn't use the chef's choice
I'm happy with my Wusthof knives that I've had for many years before I had ever even seen a Japanese knife. I'm sure the Japanese knives are better, but I'm kinda attached to what I have. Prior to the electric I used a set of synthetic stones which probably weren't the best but worked fine for my purposes.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:00 AM
8. I can't argue with Wusthof. I have six.
I still keep the paring, utility, and boning knives in my bag. Even then, those three get the hand treatment...if you're good with stones, even cheap ones will work better than a grinder. A matter of convenience. Not to mention "synthetic" is almost all you can buy, the last natural fine stone I saw was almost $8,000 for a 3x6" hunk of rock. I'll take my Shaptons any day!
Major Nikon (13,578 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:08 AM
9. It's been even longer since I've looked into buying any stones
I'm sure the Japanese synthetic stones have raised the bar considerably. At one time synthetic stones were looked down upon, but I certainly wasn't going to pay a lot more for something I wasn't convinced was all that better.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:13 AM
10. The synthetics are, like the steels, now über alles
The Shapton 16k and 32ks, Pro or Glass, are the lust objects of the sushi and straight razor guys. Thankfully, if you only have classic Western steels, you can do with a 1000 and a steel.
Though, I'd try the aogami #1 or Super if you want a new blade.
Major Nikon (13,578 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:22 AM
18. I'm somewhat pragmatic about it
When I bought my knives they were near the top of what was reasonably available at the time (this was before you could get anything on the internet). They do what I need them to do and I bought them with the intention of keeping them indefinitely. I like to think my knife skills are decent for a non-pro, but I've seen guys who make their living in the kitchen put mine to shame with restaurant supply stamped blades. So while it's nice to think about dropping a few C notes on a good piece of Japanese steel, it's just way overkill for anything I'm going to demand out of a knife.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:29 AM
19. I make a living with my knives in my hand.
I respect your opinion quite a bit and we've have some interesting differences, in the most fascinating and strangely coincidental ways I've seen since being online since 1993.
That being said, our relative spending is out of whack - I have $2500 of knives and stones, and $1200-1500 of camera gear. And the next time I have $200 of purely pocket money - new knife, not new lens. I think I recall you being a pilot - my knives are closer to your instruments than lenses. I deal with heavies at JFK while you have an uncontrolled grass strip.
With all due respect.
after which some stupid youtube thingamajig
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Then follows a discussion between the spitball primitive and the Japanese camera primitive, about flying aircraft.
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Jenoch (4,549 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:45 AM
15. We are satisfied with the Wusthof classic knives.
I bought our first Wusthoff Classic about six years ago. We now have almost every Wusthoff Classic knife offered for sale and all at flea markets. I have found SS TRI-ply cookware and cast iron cookware as well.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:53 AM
22. Wusthof is an exceptionally good brand.
95% of cooks, 99.9% of home cooks, make Wusthof and German-style knives in general a very good, effective, and useful kitchen tool. But a few of us can make a thin, super-sharp knife do our bidding well.
We have an infinitely deep hole to sink our bank accounts in, but for the average Joe, Bed Bath & Beyond is as good a store as any.
Warpy (74,386 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:28 AM
13. All my MAC knives need is to be dragged across unglazed pottery and they're super sharp again
I do have a few cheaper knives and 2 Chinese cleavers and for those I use an electric sharpener.
<<<doesn't want to be around Ms. Hindenberg when she's in one of her foul dysmenopausal moods.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 01:38 AM
14. Hell, if that's all they take
You aren't using them enough!
Warpy (74,386 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:11 AM
16. I'm just cooking for myself so no, they don't get the kind of workout
they got when I was cooking for a crowd at work or at home.
My oldest MAC is over 30 years old, though, and that's all the care it's ever needed.
sir pball (1,748 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:20 AM
17. That was what turned me on to Japanese cutlery.
My mom had a set of MAC steak knives and one slicing blade over 15 years ago that made me curious, "how were they so thin yet sharp?"
I thought "thin" meant "cheap and flimsy" (like most Americans in '87) and snapped all of them cutting bones. I wondered why mom yelled at me...whoops. Always made MAC = "cheap" to me, though...but that's why I have a better knife than you
hobbit709 (29,780 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:19 AM
29. My main knife is an old cheap $5 carbon steel knife.
Whenever I feel it's getting dull I give it a few strokes on a whetstone. The blade width is now about half of what it used to be after about 25 years.
Fortinbras Armstrong (1,709 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:27 AM
30. I am a great fan of good knives
Until last Christmas, I would have said that my favorite knife is a Shun 8-inch chef's knife, which keeps a beautiful edge and fits my hand perfectly. My son, who is a chef, gave me a Miyabi 5000DP 8-inch chef's knife and a Miyabi 600D 6-inch chef's knife and I like these equally well. I have a King K-80 water stone, but only use the 800 grit side. A few swipes with a steel every time and some work with the stone about once a month keeps these knives nice and sharp.
I also have a Henckels Four Star 8-inch chef's knife that is about forty years old. It is also a fine knife, but it feels clunky in my hand compared to the Shun or the Miyabis. I also use a steel and a stone to keep it sharp. I have a proper bread knife, a Henckels Pro S which cuts even hot bread well (and also tomatoes). I have a couple of paring knives which are sort of "eh".
When I was shopping for a wok in Chicago's Chinatown, I picked up a carbon steel Chinese style cleaver for under $50 about 20 years ago. It is great for smashing garlic or ginger, and I can cut up a chicken with it in about 90 seconds -- hint, have a small spray bottle with a ten-percent bleach solution for disinfecting the cleaver after cutting up a chicken. Wash the cleaver, spray it with the bleach solution, then wipe off the solution with a paper towel. Since it is not a stainless blade, it has stained, and will rust if not dried properly. About once a year or so, I go over the blade with metal polish. Again, a few swipes with the steel with each use and occasional sharpening with the stone keeps it sharp.
Of course, none of these knives has ever seen the inside of the dishwasher.
japple (4,383 posts) Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:24 PM
31. Whoops, it seems that I've stumbled into the weapons discussion forum. Sorry, I'll
take my kitty and go back to the cooking discussion.
Oh, I dunno.
The spitball primitive, who's reasonably new, seems like a nice enough guy, and at least he's not a post-and-run poster, like the big guy in Bellevue or the rich bitch the kpete primitive or dear old sweet Lu; he hangs around to get engaged with his audience, which makes for a good thread.
<<<no expert on cutlery, though; if it cuts, am generally satisfied with it.
