Author Topic: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.  (Read 43794 times)

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Offline RayRaytheSBS

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #75 on: October 03, 2013, 11:02:59 AM »
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I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen).  I suspect the benefits of a higher minimum wage would offset any damage caused by it.  The truth is that we're all better off when the poor and the middle-class have more money to spend, and a higher minimum wage would accomplish this goal


So you believe that the benefits of raising the minimum wage will offset the damage it will cause. I'm sure the people of the aforementioned Weimar Republic (Germany post WWI) would give you an idea of how well that worked. People were getting wheelbarrows full of money and couldn't buy anything with it due to runaway inflation. While the causes are different, the result for the US will be the same. Keep rasing the minimum wage, and the market will correct itself like it always does and raise the cost of EVERYTHING. And once again, the poor will be poor with even less purchasing power from their dollar.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2013, 11:38:33 AM »
I don't rejoice in the killing of human beings.  That's a really low blow, Gina.

-Laelth  

Yet you support it in the name of "a woman's right to choose".

Choose what, exactly?  I bet the baby would have a completely different outlook.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2013, 11:41:14 AM »
I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen). 

3000 years of economics history ain't on your side, scooter.
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Offline Gina

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2013, 11:58:42 AM »
I don't rejoice in the killing of human beings.  That's a really low blow, Gina.

-Laelth  

I am sorry if I have offended you.  But it's a pretty low blow to say that the Left has WON with abortion. It's killing innocent life.  How is that a good thing?  :shrug:  Please explain.






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Offline NHSparky

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2013, 12:27:02 PM »
I am sorry if I have offended you.  But it's a pretty low blow to say that the Left has WON with abortion. It's killing innocent life.  How is that a good thing?  :shrug:  Please explain.

Sorry for offending someone who is trying to defend the murder of 40 million innocent babies?

**** that.  These people NEED a good swift kick in the nuts.
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2013, 01:49:48 PM »

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I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen).  I suspect the benefits of a higher minimum wage would offset any damage caused by it.  The truth is that we're all better off when the poor and the middle-class have more money to spend, and a higher minimum wage would accomplish this goal


I'm sure you failed 6th grade economics.
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2013, 01:53:17 PM »
I don't loathe business.  I am on record (in this forum) saying the opposite.

I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen).  I suspect the benefits of a higher minimum wage would offset any damage caused by it.  The truth is that we're all better off when the poor and the middle-class have more money to spend, and a higher minimum wage would accomplish this goal.

-Laelth

No thanks for paying higher price.
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Offline Gina

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »
Ok, I am done.  I believe yall now on who this is. :cheersmate:






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Offline wasp69

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2013, 03:32:37 PM »
I want to know why the Republican Party didn't ban abortion when they had the chance from 2003-2006.  My hunch is that they didn't do it because (as I suggested) "the left" has already won on that issue.  Whether that's a good thing or not is another topic altogether.

So you define "victory" as a lack of legislation banning abortion?  Interesting...

Education and advances in medical science are doing far more to get rid of willful killing of the unborn than legislation ever could.

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Here, we're talking about gay marriage.  Obviously, you don't think the left has "won" on this issue.  Fine.  I appreciate your insight on this.

That's nice.  Now, answer my question, please.

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Here we're talking about MJ legalization.  Obviously, you don't think the left has "won" on this issue either.  Fine.  Again, I appreciate your insight, though I suspect this movement is global, now, and you may see a lot of change on this front in a very short period of time.  As state governments lose more and more federal funding, they will look to other sources of revenue, and MJ is some really big low-hanging fruit just waiting to be taxed.

Again, no real basis other than your opinion.  I am using the Amsterdam model of changing policy where marijuana bars are required to be private clubs.  Which, it would seem, is a rather large reversal of the previous laws.

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Civil Rights was never a victory for "the left," huh?  My history is a little rusty, but I can't buy that one.  All the same, and regardless of who deserves credit, we have made tremendous progress on this issue, and I am very proud of my country for it.

Yes, your history is rusty. 

Regardless of who deserves credit?  After claiming it as a leftist victory?  You don't say.... 

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As I mentioned to another poster, I see gun control as a Constitutional issue, not a social issue (though it has elements of both).  I am opposed to further attempts to control the sale and possession of guns for a number of reasons, but, again, I don't really see this as a social issue.  It's certainly not, as you rightly note, an issue that the left has "won" in any way.  On this issue the left is quite divided.  The proponents of gun control, however, have clearly lost for the time being.

It is, however, a very large metric in the overall indicator of how "liberal" the country truly is.  Do you deny that?
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2013, 07:38:42 PM »
Welcome to Big Dog's Remedial School for Wayward DUmmies.

I will admit, that I have no idea what you consider to be "the great social issues of our time."  

What I consider to be "the" great social issues of our time is immaterial. You made a list of things that are important to you, and made the unsupported assertion that they are "the most important social issues of our time" (an objective assertion). I smacked you for it.

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Indeed, social issues mean very little when life's necessities are at risk.

You fail to see that survival and community are the ultimate social issues. Leftists promote dependence on the government and a sense of entitlement to your neighbor's property (the complete antithesis to Natural Law). When the government fails to feed you or protect you, as it will, you won't have a life-saving relationship with the people around you. I thought I made that clear with the statement about eating your neighbors (or being eaten, naturally).

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I am less-and-less concerned about these social issues these days as economic, material issues become more prominent in my life (as they are for millions of Americans).  

You are as full of shit as a Christmas goose. You wrote the original post crowing that your side had dragged us Neandertals on the inevitable march to Utopia. It's too late to backtrack now.

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How will the Republican Party survive without these wedge issues to divide people?  It's a good question.

Ask yourself the same question about the Democrat Party. It is equally as valid.

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I will agree to look at (and restrain) the poor and middle-classed people who suck off the government teat as soon as we enact laws that prevent rich people from sucking off the government teat.  When that happens, we'll talk.

"I will agree to look at (and restrain) the poor and middle class"? "When that happens, we'll talk"? Who in the **** do you think you are? Being a  typical Leftist you believe you are the government. Time for a reality check. One day, you may be standing against a wall asking, "Does Comrade Obama know about this?"

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Not even close, my friend.  We are the hardest-working people on Earth.  We go to work, we pay our taxes, and we pay our bills.  We can continue to borrow money into the foreseeable future.  I do not see what you see on this issue.

Simple- money that is borrowed must be paid back. Otherwise it is not borrowed. Shifting possession of the IOUs, the creation of digital money (one step beyond fiat currency to imaginary money), and using one debt instrument to purchase another are not borrowing.

Two simple words apply, as they ultimately must: spend less.

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Slavery ... hmm. Give me a $15/hr. minimum wage, and your slavery fantasies will evaporate.

If the minimum wage is doubled, then the labor cost of everything made or sold by minimum wage workers will double as well. The increase of cost will be passed along to the consumer.  The new bar for "poverty" will be twice as high as it is now. As they say, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

In the last two presidential elections, slightly more than half of the voting public voted for the candidate who promised them more stuff that they wouldn't have to pay for.  A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves gifts from the public treasury.

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When the poor and middle-class have a lot of money to spend, we all get richer.  

If the "poor" have a lot of money to spend, then they are not poor.  As long as our welfare class can afford smartphones, weed, manicures, and shiny rims on their cars, they are getting too damn much of my money.

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We will always have our entrepreneurs.  We have been the most inventive and productive people the world has ever seen, and I don't see that changing (no matter how much the "evil" left tries to spread the wealth and insure that capitalism's benefits are fairly distributed to all members of this society).

Who is John Galt?

You assume that the wealth creators will continue to hold their wallets open for you.

Why, you silly leftist, do you believe that taking the fruits of one man's labor at the point of a gun, then giving it to another who wants it, but did nothing to earn it, is considered "fairly distributed"? If you follow the same principle, the crack addict who robs you in a parking lot is entitled to the contents of your wallet, simply because he wants it. He is also entitled to take your life, for the same reason.

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Strangely enough, you engaged me on economic issues (the ones I think really matter now).  The "social issues" are ones I think the left has already won (for better or for worse), and you proved this point with your post.

Economic issues are social issues, DUmbass. Economics is a social science... and John Maynard Keynes was a twat.
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Offline Freeper

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2013, 09:38:29 PM »
I don't loathe business.  I am on record (in this forum) saying the opposite.

I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen).  I suspect the benefits of a higher minimum wage would offset any damage caused by it.  The truth is that we're all better off when the poor and the middle-class have more money to spend, and a higher minimum wage would accomplish this goal.

-Laelth

Somehow I can't take anyone who voted for 0bama serious on economic policy.
I may not lock my doors while sitting at a red light and a black man is near, but I sure as hell grab on tight to my wallet when any democrats are close by.

Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2013, 06:12:47 AM »
Yet you support abortion...the murder of a human being.

She hit the bullseye with you.
Well, evidently the Republican Party (on the national level, at least) supports it too, given that they controlled all of the federal government from 2003-2006 and didn't ban the procedure.

My point was that this issue has faded into the background, and I am curious to know whether you think this is a long-term social trend or just a temporary setback for those who oppose having abortion legal.  I have gotten a good answer on this one from a number of people--i.e. temporary setback.  Perhaps.  We'll see.

-Laelth
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2013, 06:28:06 AM »
Well, evidently the Republican Party (on the national level, at least) supports it too, given that they controlled all of the federal government from 2003-2006 and didn't ban the procedure.

Nice try.  Your boss might be able to spew that line in front of the camera on the Hill without challenge but in reality that BS excuse doesn't fly.

A repeal of Roe would have never passed the Senate during that time.   As you well know working on The Hill...the Senate was 49-49 after Jumpin Jim Jeffords betrayed the GOP. And there was the little problem of 9/11 that took center stage during that time.


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My point was that this issue has faded into the background, and I am curious to know whether you think this is a long-term social trend or just a temporary setback for those who oppose having abortion legal.  I have gotten a good answer on this one from a number of people--i.e. temporary setback.  Perhaps.  We'll see.

-Laelth

Just because the media doesn't cover Roe unless a Republican President gets elected...and then only to scare people into believing it's the end of Abortion as we know it...doesn't mean it's NOT important to America and American people.

And for the record...and it's something you Libs in D.C. ALWAYS misconstrue...no one is trying to make abortion illegal...all Republicans by and large want to do is return the right to determine whether abortions can be conducted in a state bACK to the State legislatures.

Which is exactly how it was prior to 1972.  Abortion wasn't illegal in the country as a whole...but some states did vote to not allow abortions in their state.

And like any other time a state self determines it's own laws and policies within it's right in the Constitution...your Lib bosses there in D.C. step in and tell those states they don't know whats good for them and force them to do something against the will of that states voters.
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2013, 07:09:41 AM »
Points 1-3 could very well reverse course when the fallout from each has become apparent.  Until  100% of the states pass favorable laws it's hardly a Win.

There's so much in 4 that you purposefully neglect. 

"While the SCOTUS has neutered the Civil Rights Act of 1965, it's clear that the races in this country are moving towards parity in terms of their legal rights."  Moving towards parity?  There is parity now.  Some simply refuse to think beyond their days instant gratification. 

"This change is slow (still far more black men in prison than white men, as a percentage of the total population), but it is coming."  Failing to address why the incarceration rate of blacks exceed other races makes any argument null.  Hint:  glorification and emulation of thug culture, demise of personal responsibility, reliance on government for daily existence, death of the family unit.

Mr. Mann has brought up several areas that are, indeed, social issues.   Why the hesitation to address them?  As an attorney you should be prepared to respond.
I appreciate your responses.

As for Mr. Mann's insights, which I also appreciate, I don't think we're ready to agree on the history of "civil rights" in this country, nor are we ready to agree on whether there's parity between races and genders at present, so, rather than stoke that fire, I dropped the subject.

-Laelth

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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2013, 07:12:34 AM »
I am sorry if I have offended you.  But it's a pretty low blow to say that the Left has WON with abortion. It's killing innocent life.  How is that a good thing?  :shrug:  Please explain.
I didn't say it was a "good" thing.  I couldn't think of a better, value-neutral way to frame the question.  The question is, will we see abortion banned in the next 20-40 years?  I don't think so.  I am wondering whether I am missing something.

That said, I do appreciate your kind reply.

-Laelth
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2013, 07:18:39 AM »
I appreciate your responses.

As for Mr. Mann's insights, which I also appreciate, I don't think we're ready to agree on the history of "civil rights" in this country, nor are we ready to agree on whether there's parity between races and genders at present, so, rather than stoke that fire, I dropped the subject.

-Laelth

Another failure of leftist thought (said word written with tongue in cheek).

"Parity", like "fairness" is a chimera. Both terms are undefinable and unmeasurable.
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2013, 07:28:01 AM »
Nice try.  Your boss might be able to spew that line in front of the camera on the Hill without challenge but in reality that BS excuse doesn't fly.

A repeal of Roe would have never passed the Senate during that time.   As you well know working on The Hill...the Senate was 49-49 after Jumpin Jim Jeffords betrayed the GOP. And there was the little problem of 9/11 that took center stage during that time.
Agreed.  It would likely have been impossible for Congress to ban the procedure from 2003-2006, and other issues were consuming our legislators' attention.  That said, the Republican Party didn't even try to ban the procedure from 2003-2006.  Does that say something, or not?  To me it says "the left" has won on this issue, for better or for worse, and it appears the SCOTUS agrees (for the moment), as they don't seem inclined to rule on this subject.

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Just because the media doesn't cover Roe unless a Republican President gets elected...and then only to scare people into believing it's the end of Abortion as we know it...doesn't mean it's NOT important to America and American people.

And for the record...and it's something you Libs in D.C. ALWAYS misconstrue...no one is trying to make abortion illegal...all Republicans by and large want to do is return the right to determine whether abortions can be conducted in a state bACK to the State legislatures.

Which is exactly how it was prior to 1972.  Abortion wasn't illegal in the country as a whole...but some states did vote to not allow abortions in their state.

And like any other time a state self determines it's own laws and policies within it's right in the Constitution...your Lib bosses there in D.C. step in and tell those states they don't know whats good for them and force them to do something against the will of that states voters.
It's cool to hear that "all Republicans by and large want to do is return the right to determine whether abortions can be conducted in a state bACK to the State legislatures," but I suspect Republicans are not united in this opinion.  Either way, Roe made this a national, Constitutional issue, and I don't see how we can undo that now.

Let me add that I do appreciate the responses you have given me, even if you're not thrilled to see me posting here.

:cheersmate:

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2013, 07:29:11 AM »
"Parity", like "fairness" is a chimera. Both terms are undefinable and unmeasurable.
True.  Too hard to define and measure.  That's why I dropped the subject.

 :cheersmate:

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2013, 07:53:14 AM »
So, if a higher minimum wage means more money for everyone, why just $15 an hour? Why not make it $150 an hour?
I read somewhere that a $15/hr. minimum wage would put us on par with the minimum wage in (approximately) 1962 (inflation adjusted, of course).  Kicking it up much higher that that would cause undesirable inflation, or so I understand.  That said, I am not an economist (as a number of you have kindly reminded me).  I concede that a $15/hr. minimum wage would create some inflationary pressure, but I think it would be worth that risk.  On the other hand, a $150/hr. minimum wage would create extraordinary and undesirable inflationary pressure, or, so I understand.

Thanks for your response.

-Laelth
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:56:08 AM by Laelth »
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2013, 08:05:18 AM »


So you believe that the benefits of raising the minimum wage will offset the damage it will cause. I'm sure the people of the aforementioned Weimar Republic (Germany post WWI) would give you an idea of how well that worked. People were getting wheelbarrows full of money and couldn't buy anything with it due to runaway inflation. While the causes are different, the result for the US will be the same. Keep rasing the minimum wage, and the market will correct itself like it always does and raise the cost of EVERYTHING. And once again, the poor will be poor with even less purchasing power from their dollar.
As you might imagine, I disagree.  Not sure there's much more to be said, here, but I do appreciate your response.

 :cheersmate:

-Laelth
We are all in this boat together.

Offline Carl

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2013, 08:24:04 AM »
I don't loathe business.  I am on record (in this forum) saying the opposite.

I'd be willing to pay a little more for a hamburger if it meant we could get a lot of people off the welfare rolls (and that's exactly what would happen).  I suspect the benefits of a higher minimum wage would offset any damage caused by it.  The truth is that we're all better off when the poor and the middle-class have more money to spend, and a higher minimum wage would accomplish this goal.

-Laelth

Please sooper genius,explain to me why the poverty level will not rise in proportion as prices rise to meet the additional expense.

Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2013, 08:29:48 AM »
And quite frankly being the Lib you are...you don't care.
I actually do care, and I wouldn't be here talking to you if I didn't.

 :cheersmate:

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2013, 08:39:01 AM »
Have you ever operated a business or done the accounting for it?  Do you have any idea about who owns franchises?

Forgive me if I do not respond to personal questions.  I understand that most franchisees are local, small-business owners.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: On all the great social issues of our time, "The Left" has already won.
« Reply #98 on: October 04, 2013, 08:48:17 AM »
Please sooper genius,explain to me why the poverty level will not rise in proportion as prices rise to meet the additional expense.
I'll pass on that one, but feel free to educate me on what you see as the likely results of an increase in the minimum wage.  I promise to read what you have to say.

-Laelth
We are all in this boat together.

Offline Laelth

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Re:
« Reply #99 on: October 04, 2013, 08:55:42 AM »
WE think you're an idiot.  Don't need to Google you *****...you're not famous and we've got all the evidence that you don't know jack right here in your posts on CC.

LOL.  That's funny.  Yes, I get that you think I'm an idiot.  That much is quite clear.

What else do you think?

 :rofl:

-Laelth
We are all in this boat together.