the cousin deals with people regularly

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662043

Oh my.

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:23 PM

This is an important point, people are confusing admiration for the US with immigration rates

I have talked to migrants. that is one of the things I do. I also talk to people abroad, and again that is one of the things I do. Why do people apply to immigrate to the US? (And by the way, we are starting to see Americans applying to other countries due to our anti science stance, but that is another story). One of the chief reasons is economic opportunity, and that is perceived, not real.
 
In reality immigration rates have started to slow down, or people who are coming here to study like I did a generation ago when that was still real, are going back home.
 
People are not coming necessarily because they admire the US. I have been told this flatly by people. They come here because the opportunities they once had back home are gone due to policies we have helped enact in their home countries. NAFTA is a textbook example. People used to be able to grow corn and beans and squash in the family fields, in the ejidos and make a living, like they have been doing for centuries. They cannot compete wiht agribusiness, and in many cases they have been driven away from their ancestral lands.
 
Some move to the cities, where they eke a living. A few, more than a few, move to the States, where they pick your lettuce and tomatoes and other fruits and veggies, and you get to enjoy the fruits of their cheap labor, with cheaper food prices. They are not risking literally, life and limb because of love of the US.
 
But, but we are loved and Admired? No we are not. There are some in the power elites, they tend to be right wing and chiefly wealthy, who do. After all I would as well, they directly benefit from things like NAFTA. Trust me, Carlos Slim loves the US, he became immensely wealthy due to the neo-liberal policies pushed on Mexico by the World Bank and the US. His telecom workers not so much. Salary stagnation has led to a rise in food insecurity, even among formerly middle class workers. And they know why. They also know who to blame, primarily the local political class, but also Uncle Sam.
 
Does this translate to hate of individual Americans? Nope, unless you are a dick and behave in dickish ways. I suspect that this is where a lot of the confusion is coming from. You as an individual have been treated well, in the case of Mexico Tourism is industry number three, nope, ain't gonna byte the hand that feeds me, but the US Government is not truly admired.
 
Oh and when Obama went visiting he was referred as a visiting caesar coming to check on the provinces of the Empire. You might see that as admiration. I see that more as critique.
 
That said, it is sad that we were treated to a very in depth interview with the Charge d' Affairs of the Embassy at CNN Mexico. The kind that the US media used to do two generations ago.

2naSalit (1,885 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:29 PM

1. Outside our borders the USofA has a very well funded PR campaign for those who are desperate to be someplace else. They are led to believe that we have freedom and equality but only discover, once they have sacrificed all they ever had to get here, that they are the least equal and that what they were led to believe is BS.
 
It would be nice if we could be a leader in honesty but that's a pipe dream...

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:36 PM

2. I know, trust me, I know the streets are paved with gold in San Diego, don't you know?

Now that the US is starting to have a brain flight... it should be interested.

<<<wouldn't trust the cousin with a used toothpick.

And.....uh oh.....here comes trouble:

Pretzel_Warrior (2,549 posts)   Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:44 PM

3. some critique [franksolich: bold part is the primitive's critique; regular part is the cousin's words, quoted]

I have talked to migrants. that is one of the things I do. so do I. In fact I'm married to first generation immigrant. I also talk to people abroad so do I. my wife and I both have careers that have taken us to multiple countries where we have made many friends, and again that is one of the things I do. Why do people apply to immigrate to the US? (And by the way, we are starting to see Americans applying to other countries due to our anti science stance, but that is another story). One of the chief reasons is economic opportunity, and that is perceived, not real. Here is a Pew Research poll of Mexicans (the largest immigrant population in the U.S.). Although economic opportunity is one aspect in their desire to immigrate to the U.S. it is by no means the only one. Mexicans have a relatively high opinion of the U.S. Government.
 
http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/09/23/most-mexicans-see-better-life-in-us-one-in-three-would-migrate/
 
In reality immigration rates have started to slow down, or people who are coming here to study like I did a generation ago when that was still real, are going back home. You also forgot to mention some of the increased barriers to visiting and immigrating since 9/11
 
People are not coming necessarily because they admire the US. I have been told this flatly by people. They come here because the opportunities they once had back home are gone due to policies we have helped enact in their home countries. NAFTA is a textbook example. People used to be able to grow corn and beans and squash in the family fields, in the ejidos and make a living, like they have been doing for centuries. They cannot compete wiht agribusiness, and in many cases they have been driven away from their ancestral lands.
There are plenty of immigrants who came to the U.S. from highly repressive regimes who appreciate and speak vocally about our freedom of expression and movement here in the U.S.
 
Some move to the cities, where they eke a living. A few, more than a few, move to the States, where they pick your lettuce and tomatoes and other fruits and veggies, and you get to enjoy the fruits of their cheap labor, with cheaper food prices. They are not risking literally, life and limb because of love of the US.
 
But, but we are loved and Admired? No we are not. There are some in the power elites, they tend to be right wing and chiefly wealthy, who do. After all I would as well, they directly benefit from things like NAFTA. Trust me, Carlos Slim loves the US, he became immensely wealthy due to the neo-liberal policies pushed on Mexico by the World Bank and the US. His telecom workers not so much. Salary stagnation has led to a rise in food insecurity, even among formerly middle class workers. And they know why. They also know who to blame, primarily the local political class, but also Uncle Sam.
 
Does this translate to hate of individual Americans? Nope, unless you are a dick and behave in dickish ways. I suspect that this is where a lot of the confusion is coming from. You as an individual have been treated well, in the case of Mexico Tourism is industry number three, nope, ain't gonna byte the hand that feeds me, but the US Government is not truly admired. again, refer to my Pew Research link. Mexicans rate their opinion of U.S. Government as higher even than that of Obama or Americans themselves.
 
Oh and when Obama went visiting he was referred as a visiting caesar coming to check on the provinces of the Empire. You might see that as admiration. I see that more as critique.
 
That said, it is sad that we were treated to a very in depth interview with the Charge d' Affairs of the Embassy at CNN Mexico. The kind that the US media used to do two generations ago.

otohara (21,993 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

4. 503,104 Naturalized Citizens

In fiscal year 2013 through May, approximately 503,104 individuals have been naturalized.
 
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b62aef6b56c1b210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD
 
Feelings

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:58 PM

6. after the 1997 election in California there was a spike of naturalizations as well and not all were driven by pure love.

Many were driven by the political reality that some people were doing all to repress the immigrant communities.
 
You speak to local immigrant communities and the feeling is that you'd better become a citizen to have a voice, not again, necessarily admiration.
 
I deal with real people regularly. Try that. And as an immigrant myself, sharing in the immigrant experience I also have an insight that those born in the US lack. Yes, some become citizens and truly fully buy into the myth, most, it is shades of gray.

otohara (21,993 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:11 PM

7. I Married to An Immigrant

Who works with several immigrants ... They love this state and America.

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:35 PM

9. Well I have a more shades of gray view

I never think anybody or anything is perfect. And I know a bunch who are with me.

Brickbat (14,943 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:09 PM

responding to the otohara primitive above

14. Look, if you see something different than Nadin, you need to realize it's because she's right and you're wrong. Her view is more nuanced, more shades-of-gray, and generally much more intelligent than yours could ever possibly be.

zappaman (9,947 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:12 PM

8. Yawn

Another day, another "let me tear down America" OP.

Thanks for your post shedding some facts on this issue!

Brickbat (14,943 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:07 PM

13. One could debate "loved and admired" versus "positive," I suppose, but you seem to be wrong when it comes to basic numbers. In the Pew Research Foundation's 2013 Global Attitudes Project, researchers found that "Overall, global attitudes toward America are positive. In 28 of 38 nations, half or more of those surveyed express a favorable opinion of the U.S."
 
Numbers were up from last year, in fact.

You do make some important points. As usual, however, they're overwhelmed by your contempt for your audience.*

*a primitive gets it. 

Geezuz, the cousin's such a ****ing skanky bitch.

[JohnnyReb]

There seems to be two DUmmies Dumber than Nadin....brickbat and otohara.

Brickbat (14,943 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:09 PM

responding to the otohara primitive above

14. Look, if you see something different than Nadin, you need to realize it's because she's right and you're wrong. Her view is more nuanced, more shades-of-gray, and generally much more intelligent than yours could ever possibly be.

I guess this proves that nothing is impossible.

[franksolich]

There seems to be two DUmmies Dumber than Nadin....brickbat and otohara.

Brickbat (14,943 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:09 PM

responding to the otohara primitive above

14. Look, if you see something different than Nadin, you need to realize it's because she's right and you're wrong. Her view is more nuanced, more shades-of-gray, and generally much more intelligent than yours could ever possibly be.

I guess this proves that nothing is impossible.

Oh now, John, sir, the brickbat primitive was being sarcastic.

[BlueStateSaint]

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 03:35 PM

9. Well I have a more shades of gray view

I never think anybody or anything is perfect. And I know a bunch who are with me.

Hopefully, it ain't 50 . . .

[jukin]

The reason that there are no corn farmers and that corn products are super expensive is because of...
.
.
.
wai....
.
.
.
It's coming.....
.
.
.
Almost here...
.
.
.
BECAUSE OF DEMOCRAT PARTY ECO-FASCISTS BURNING FOOD FOR FUEL!!


OWN IT DUchebags!

[Texacon]

Nadine has not begun to drink. Her spelling is too good.

KC

[Skul]

Nadine has not begun to drink. Her spelling is too good.

KC

How can you tell?
Seh misspells evrythin.

[98ZJUSMC]

2naSalit (1,885 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:29 PM

1. Outside our borders the USofA has a very well funded PR campaign for those who are desperate to be someplace else.

No, idiot.  If you had ever actually been outside our borders you would find that normal, everyday people actually love us.  

nadinbrzezinski (125,884 posts)    Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:23 PM

That was just too stupid for comment.

I deal with real people regularly. Try that. And as an immigrant myself, sharing in the immigrant experience I also have an insight that those born in the US lack. Yes, some become citizens and truly fully buy into the myth, most, it is shades of gray.

Ugh, gawd..............

[RobJohnson]

She is so clueless.

I know a family here from the Philippines that absolutely enjoys every minute. The husband has to travel back home often for his job, and he is always happy to be back in Nevada. They have had to bend over backwards and in every direction to stay here and for their children that have grown into adults have had to do the same to stay in college and continue an education here.

The family just purchased their first home, in the same neighborhood as Evil Conservative.

 

[vesta111]

She is so clueless.

I know a family here from the Philippines that absolutely enjoys every minute. The husband has to travel back home often for his job, and he is always happy to be back in Nevada. They have had to bend over backwards and in every direction to stay here and for their children that have grown into adults have had to do the same to stay in college and continue an education here.

The family just purchased their first home, in the same neighborhood as Evil Conservative.

 

I must have lucked out all those years I worked with immigrants from China to Russia and every where else that could get here, by boat, inner tube or a foot.

These people from everywhere had just one desire, to live with no fear,  most as our long time ago  ancestors live within their own community's.    They may own homes in a mixed community but they socialize within their own. They are Proud to be Americans but keep all their own traditions and faiths.

First generation Americans in most part keep their heads low and expect their children to get an education, stay out of trouble and help the family.   Some work 2-3 jobs to provide for their family's--
they still have pride.    As more generations come along the old ways get lost and then problems begin.

The original immigrants cannot understand the loss of tradition in their family's, the loss of respect from their own family.

This in not the fault of the people, it is trying to understand why the State comes in to mess with their traditions. 

Next town has a large Asian population and the State got bent out of shape as in some Cambodian family's it was traditional to take a silver piece, a quarter to rub on the site of a pain.  Kids coming to school with the marks left were soon in a mess, the state was charging their parents with child abuse.

Not for us to find it unusual to have a coworker come in with marks on their temple as they had had a head ache.  Strange but more then a few times if I complained of a shoulder or hand pain a coworker would grab me and squeeze where it hurt.  The pain from the squeeze was so bad I would cry, but in a few minutes the pain was gone, some of this stuff works and I was lucky no one tried to put needles in me for acupuncture.
 
The South of the border has immigrants coming in that are into Santeria, Kids and adults wearing beads of different colors around their neck.   I have to remember that way back when in the Puritan Colony's the Catholics arriving were run out of Mass, as were the Quakers, the Mormons in the north  Central and the Unitarians in the far north.

It is not that the immigrants do not appreciate America, they love America, but do not want their ethnic traditions to be taken away from them.     

[AprilRazz]

A gentleman from Cuba that I had the pleasure to serve with absolutely adores this country. He also hates Obama, can't figure out the "Che" worship and is more conservative that I could ever hope to be.

[GOBUCKS]

A gentleman from Cuba that I had the pleasure to serve with absolutely adores this country. He also hates Obama, can't figure out the "Che" worship and is more conservative that I could ever hope to be.

I know several Cubans who escaped in the 1960s. They're naturalized citizens, and very decent and civilized people. They feel nothing but embarrassment and contempt for the "Marielitos" who arrived in 1980 when Castro emptied his prisons. The Marielitos were symbolic of Castro's disrespect for the weak, incompetent Jimmeh.

[RobJohnson]

A gentleman from Cuba that I had the pleasure to serve with absolutely adores this country. He also hates Obama, can't figure out the "Che" worship and is more conservative that I could ever hope to be.

My friends do not care for the President.  They also do not care for all the people they see on welfare as they work very hard. Her husband runs a custom gun shop with a new gun production line and struggles to finds qualified applicants or people that show up for work. There are jobs out there, finding people that actually want to work is a different story. His own job has to be advertised every two years to prove that no one in the area is being displaced by him working here. During the job interview they give people that claim they have years and years of firearms experience a 1911 and ask them to strip the gun, 99% of the applicants can't. Interview over.

[vesta111]

My friends do not care for the President.  They also do not care for all the people they see on welfare as they work very hard. Her husband runs a custom gun shop with a new gun production line and struggles to finds qualified applicants or people that show up for work. There are jobs out there, finding people that actually want to work is a different story. His own job has to be advertised every two years to prove that no one in the area is being displaced by him working here. During the job interview they give people that claim they have years and years of firearms experience a 1911 and ask them to strip the gun, 99% of the applicants can't. Interview over.

Little Cuba in Florida, my sister in law lives smack dab in the middle.  Moved there years ago when she married a refugee who came here in the late 60's.     She tells me that after working for the State dealing with the refugees up to her retirement 5 years ago, that she loved every minute of it.   

When the national story about the young boy who's mother died trying to get him to America, the community did everything moving heaven and earth to keep the boy here. 

The picture of the child cowering in a closet with a swat team pointing guns in his face went world wide.    The day the USA sent the child back to Cuba, the streets were full of grown men and women weeping for the fate of the child.        She recounts that day reminded her of the reaction of the death of RFK when grown adults stopped in their tracks and burst into tears, she was born and raised in Mass. 

Outside of having to learn Cuban language, spoken with a Yankee accent -- she has never regretted living among these people that are so great full for their lives here.

Now after 3 generations the community is changing as everything changes.   The new generation has never know terror so bad they would jump aboard anything that would float to face the sharks, hunger and then have to when reaching land hide from armed police arrested and sent back to die in a Cuban prison.    Parents and grandparents who faced death to get to freedom have no idea that the youth is so spoiled being born in America, I common threat to misbehaving kids is " If you don't shape up you will be sent to live with relatives still living in Cuba. "   Sort of like the threats to sell the kids to the Gypsy's.