primitive has problem with Social Security

[GOBUCKS]

cases of cops/firefighters/etc. who retire between 45-50 with a $60K/year pension

By age 45 they have years of sick leave accumulated. Government jobs are great. Taxpayers are so generous.

We'll get the straight scoop soon from 0bama Steve, when he leaves his job scraping puke from the back seat of police cruisers, and goes on the public dole.

But I really doubt a DUmpmonkey like Dawes has allowed any sick leave to go unused.

[zeitgeist]

The DUmmy got out of the workforce a few years early because he could no longer make the sacrifices demanded by his employer.

What sacrifices were those? Show up on time and be productive for the full shift?

Most likely involved a cup and urine. 

[Aristotelian]

But I really doubt a DUmpmonkey like Dawes has allowed any sick leave to go unused.

It's the one thing I can imagine him actually taking time over - if he'd spent as much time campaigning as on planning sick leave he'd probably have been elected.

[NHSparky]

You kind of picked bad examples.  Cops, firefighters and let's add the military earned their "entitlements" through hazardous service.  You want to talk about IRS, congress, DMV etc. I'm with you.

Actually, I think I picked pretty good examples--why the hell should a cop with 20 years at age 45 get to boost his final year's pay to the $200K range by selling back the HUNDREDS of days of sick time and vacation they never used and never lost?  And when that happens, they get to retire at a percentage of their final year's salary?  Then spend another 15-20 years getting a second paycheck at the public trough, like this guy?

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20130122-NEWS-130129924

And consider that out in Commiefornia, there are retired cops making over $200K/year.  Think about that.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21438816/bay-areas-250k-club-government-retirees-wont-be

[dixierose]

Actually, I think I picked pretty good examples--why the hell should a cop with 20 years at age 45 get to boost his final year's pay to the $200K range by selling back the HUNDREDS of days of sick time and vacation they never used and never lost?  And when that happens, they get to retire at a percentage of their final year's salary?  Then spend another 15-20 years getting a second paycheck at the public trough, like this guy?

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20130122-NEWS-130129924

And consider that out in Commiefornia, there are retired cops making over $200K/year.  Think about that.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21438816/bay-areas-250k-club-government-retirees-wont-be

Wow...I wasn't aware that sick leave/vacation could accumulate like that. The jobs I have had you had to use it or lose it...you could only roll over 1 years worth.

[zeitgeist]

For regular citizens like you and I it isn't allowed.  If you're a government employee, by all means, go for it!  I've seen I don't know how many cases of cops/firefighters/etc. who retire between 45-50 with a $60K/year pension, turn right around and jump on another government job for another $60-100K/year.

Not a bad deal if you can get it.

As someone else has mentioned down thread you have to be careful not to broad brush this issue.  For example a DOD cop or firefighter got to retire earlier but IIRC they were not anywhere as generously paid as some "civilian" public union counter parts and the retirement computations were not based on lump sum payout for sick leave. this is a big difference when you average high three years.  
  
They also pay an additional amount into their retirement. (see here: http://www.dodfire.com/Retiremant/cpms_retire_guidance.pdf )  

As far as the offsets for former CSRS employees you have a very complex system which pretty much ensures Federal Government employees cannot game the system and collect more Social Security because they show lower earnings (Social Security is a regressive system which actually pays proportionally more to lower earners than higher ones.)  What happened before the wind fall retirement act was people would work just long enough to be covered by Social (40 quarters ) then collect the maximum benefit regardless of their other CSRS pension.  The correction to the system corrected one problem but created others

Today of course Federal Employees hired after 1983 are covered under FERS which is a highbred system that includes Social Security, a defined employer contribution, and a voluntary '401' type matching account.  They have been talking about changing high three to high five but I have not been following that closely so I do not know where they stand on it.

Local government largess should not be confused with Federal.  Not all local governments give away the candy store but many like Detroit do.  It should also be noted that there are many people who find they are not eligible for full SSI because they receive a State pension.  When in doubt check it out.  

[NHSparky]

Yeah, and I (and my employer) have been paying into a retirement that I'll likely never see, or will certainly never recoup in my lifetime.

It's already projected that as an "average" person at the age of 45, you'll see about 85-90 percent of what you and your employer paid into SS.  But here's the catch--the more you earn/pay in, the smaller the percentage you'll see back, so if you max out (as I have for several years now) you'll see an even smaller percentage.

Negative 20 percent rate of return?  Where the hell do I sign up!  Frankly, if they told me even today that I could stop contributing to SS but not get it when I retired, I'd be like, "When can I start not paying?"  If you as a private employer tried this kind of retirement plan (like SS) you'd be in the cell next to Bernie Madoff.

[Bad Dog]

Actually, I think I picked pretty good examples--why the hell should a cop with 20 years at age 45 get to boost his final year's pay to the $200K range by selling back the HUNDREDS of days of sick time and vacation they never used and never lost?  And when that happens, they get to retire at a percentage of their final year's salary?  Then spend another 15-20 years getting a second paycheck at the public trough, like this guy?

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20130122-NEWS-130129924

And consider that out in Commiefornia, there are retired cops making over $200K/year.  Think about that.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21438816/bay-areas-250k-club-government-retirees-wont-be

And there are retired/disabled cops & firefighters making a lot less.  I know some.

[Aristotelian]

Actually, I think I picked pretty good examples--why the hell should a cop with 20 years at age 45 get to boost his final year's pay to the $200K range by selling back the HUNDREDS of days of sick time and vacation they never used and never lost?  And when that happens, they get to retire at a percentage of their final year's salary?

It's a common practice in local government over here for officials to get very large pay-rises for their last couple of years precisely because the pension is a percentage of final salary. Their bosses are happy to sign it off because they'll get the same treatment in turn, and the councils don't worry as they only have to pay the higher salary for a year whereas the pension fund is national...

[jtyangel]

Wow...I wasn't aware that sick leave/vacation could accumulate like that. The jobs I have had you had to use it or lose it...you could only roll over 1 years worth.

Jumping on zeitgeist post to relate to yours. There is use or lose at the federal level too. 240 hours max carryover of leave a year so even if you sit for your first 2 years you will have to start using by your 3 rd year or lose it. I do not believe the sick time is included in any computation for retirement or paid out.

[zeitgeist]

Jumping on zeitgeist post to relate to yours. There is use or lose at the federal level too. 240 hours max carryover of leave a year so even if you sit for your first 2 years you will have to start using by your 3 rd year or lose it. I do not believe the sick time is included in any computation for retirement or paid out.

Sick leave when I retired was applied to total time worked (I actually received credit for an additional half year of service based on SL).  I seem to remember the conversion as about a half year added to your total years for each 'year' of sick leave.  The advantage to maintaining a high balance of SL was that of not having to go without a paycheck if you were sick for a long period of time. I am not sure if they have changed the accumulation on SL or not but when I retired you could accumulate as much SL as you wanted.   With annual you could carry 240 and if you managed things correctly the entire year of retirement could be added (8x26=208) for a total payout of 448 in annual but that was not used in high three computations and you took good a tax hit on it.  With all the holidays and things like comp time that was not difficult to do while having plenty of time off with creative use of sick leave which wouldn't be converted. 

[GOBUCKS]

Firemen and police have tough jobs, but they aren't really under-compensated. They have reasonable salaries, great benefits, much of the time they can make as much as they want with overtime, and their retirements are unparalleled.

Over the years, I've known a handful of firemen and one cop. They've since retired early and every single one is on a disability retirement. I can't judge their disability, but they don't seem limited. One of them bought a boat and is a charter captain on Lake Erie. Two of them I deer hunt with, and compared to me they're still athletes.

I thought of this when I read an article that said seventy-five percent of retired New York firemen draw disability pensions. Guys get hurt on the job, even killed, but seventy-five percent? And remember these guys retire so young they're drawing the pension twice as long as a social security or private company retiree.

That's the main reason democrat hellholes are going belly up.

[Aristotelian]

Wow...I wasn't aware that sick leave/vacation could accumulate like that. The jobs I have had you had to use it or lose it...you could only roll over 1 years worth.

My last job was carry forward three days maximum; that's pretty standard over here, though often there's scope for negotiation if there's a reason to carry forward.

[Skul]

The one comment that caught the eye.

elleng (41,773 posts)    Fri Jul 26, 2013, 11:30 PM
1. I don't understand, don't know the official procedures, but sounds like something's amiss. Maybe to do with Survivor's benefits you were previously entitled to?
 
I retired around 2007, and started receiving SocSec. (Small amount as most of my working years had been as Fed. Govt. employee under CSRS, so didn't pay into SocSec.) Also received Fed Govt. pension.
 
Husband, also a Federal govt employee, passed May 15, 2013, I applied for Soc Sec Survivor's benefit about a month ago, and received it immediately.
I suggest you check with your attorney, find out to what extent s/he understands SocSec.

In other words, a leech that never earned it.
Didn't pay into SS, yet draws it. Deceased husband also didn't pay in, and she draws more SS benefits right along with Fed. pension.

[zeitgeist]

The one comment that caught the eye.In other words, a leech that never earned it.
Didn't pay into SS, yet draws it. Deceased husband also didn't pay in, and she draws more SS benefits right along with Fed. pension.

And rather than dry hump the Tea Party with their shenanigans the IRS could run programs that identify potential double dippers like this one.  It would be pretty simple to construct the arguments considering they are all tied on the same key (social security number aka ssn). 

Of course this leech may get a demand letter if and when they are deemed ineligible.  It does happen albeit infrequently. Proper programing could insure it happens much more frequently.  Social and AA promotions in the IT world are a large part of the problem.  I have known senior ITs who couldn't program a computer if you gave them a boot with code written on the sole.     They hire contractors.  Lots of contractors.

[jtyangel]

Sick leave when I retired was applied to total time worked (I actually received credit for an additional half year of service based on SL).  I seem to remember the conversion as about a half year added to your total years for each 'year' of sick leave.  The advantage to maintaining a high balance of SL was that of not having to go without a paycheck if you were sick for a long period of time. I am not sure if they have changed the accumulation on SL or not but when I retired you could accumulate as much SL as you wanted.   With annual you could carry 240 and if you managed things correctly the entire year of retirement could be added (8x26=208) for a total payout of 448 in annual but that was not used in high three computations and you took good a tax hit on it.  With all the holidays and things like comp time that was not difficult to do while having plenty of time off with creative use of sick leave which wouldn't be converted.

Thx zeitgeist. I'm but a babe in the woods in this stuff:)

[Skul]

And rather than dry hump the Tea Party with their shenanigans the IRS could run programs that identify potential double dippers like this one.  It would be pretty simple to construct the arguments considering they are all tied on the same key (social security number aka ssn). 

Of course this leech may get a demand letter if and when they are deemed ineligible.  It does happen albeit infrequently. Proper programing could insure it happens much more frequently.  Social and AA promotions in the IT world are a large part of the problem.  I have known senior ITs who couldn't program a computer if you gave them a boot with code written on the sole.     They hire contractors.  Lots of contractors.

The 8088 chips can only do so much.
Naturally, "sequesture" prevented them upgrading to the new 386 series. Ya, ya, I probably spelled that wrong.