cali primitive tries to knock sense into primitives; fails

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3441981

Hmmm.

One suspects the cali primitive is getting a little tired of the exaggerations and caricatures and hysterical hyperbole of the other primitives; but of course the cali primitive doesn't exactly have clean hands herself, being a moonstruck Obamaite.

cali  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 06:49 AM
Original message

Yes, bush is awful. Yes, he's perpetrated criminal acts. No, he's not in the same league as Hitler
   
No matter how much you hate bushco, history cannot be revised for you. In order to be in the same league as Hitler, bushco would have had to do certain things:

Invade not just one country under a pretext, but several.

Deport Sunnis, say, to death camps and wipe out the majority of them.

Set up martial law here.

Set up concentration camps and death camps here.

Completely made protest or dissent illegal and punishable by death. Sorry, there haven't been any Sophie or Hans Scholls over the past 7.5 years, here in the U.S.

I can't figure out whether it's just that people are so (justifiably) angry at bushco that they're letting rage override knowledge and reason, or whether people actually don't know history. But if you actually bush is as bad as hitler and that gitmo is equivalent to Auschwitz or Dachau, you're simply in error.

No, that doesn't excuse bush. It doesn't make the deaths of those in Iraq any less tragic. It doesn't mean that Iraq wasn't a criminal endeavor- it was and is. And bush deserves to be sent to the Hague for war crimes, but it's still not equivalent. There are degrees of criminality. Remember how the neocons loved to compare Saddam to Hitler? Comparing bushco to Hilter is no more accurate. It's simply revisionism, and it dilutes history.

I dunno.

I always thought the comparison between Saddam and Hitler very apt.

Benhurst  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message

1. No, Bush is no Hitler. But he is 100,000 or so times worse than Charles Manson.

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message

2. Generally yes.
   
unless your one of those innocent rendetion victims at Gitmo or Abu Grabib , who had dogs nipping at their exposed genitals. Better not to ask those guys.

cali  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #2

7. By that logic, better not ask individual victims of any heinous crime.
   
And the deaths of victims of Auschwitz and other camps numbered in the milllions, not the dozens or the hundreds. Gitmo is simply not comparable to Auschwitz. It's terrible in it's own right, and Abu Gharib was also horrifying, but not in the same way.

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. did not say it was
   
just said don't ask Abu Grabib's victims. Are we sure Abu Grabib did not result in long term deaths. ?

cbc5g  (724 posts) Fri Jun-13-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message

3. If they lived under Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot they wouldn't be saying anything
   
They'd either get in line and not say a word or hide in their rooms for fear of being sent to death camps or hard labor camps. Thats real repression. If they think Bush is that bad, they really have no idea what has happened in history. It really dishonors those who fought against those dictators and the millions who died under them.

Warren Stupidity  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message

4. The Nazis didn't have the balls to start mass killings until '41
   
They took power in '32. Don't lull yourself into thinking that just because the butcher's bill for bush's wars are only around 1,000,000 so far, and they haven't actually gotten around to industrialized slaughter yet, that there is no comparison. There are comparisons and equivalences that are quite valid. Our current regime has committed war crimes for which we executed German and Japanese officials after WWII. Our current regime has committed war crimes for which we recently, through our proxies, executed Saddam Hussein.

tabasco  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message

5. Charlie Manson is not in the same league with Ted Bundy.
   
They are/were both murderous criminals.

cali  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #5

8. Actually, he's in exactly the same league.
   
It's more like Joe Blows who blew away some guy in a random robbery is not in the same league with Ted Bundy or Manson.

rug  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message

6. 3 out of 5 is close enough.

AspieGrrl  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:23 AM
Response to Original message

9. Thank you.

tekisui  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:26 AM
Response to Original message

10. He stands by his own measure of a Fascist War Criminal.
   
We don't have to wait around for someone "as bad as Hitler". As bad as chimpy is plenty bad enough.

Just as comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We know the horrors of Hitler, and there is a lot of badness that should be stopped between crooked and Hitler. The Hitler threshold is not one to look towards.

madokie  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message

12. Remember Fallujah
   
remember it was in retaliation of 4 dead mercenaries. remember the white phosphorus raining down upon the Iraqi. No I say that bush is in the same league as Hitler and in some ways worst. Numbers of dead is not a measure of all things wrong in invasion and occupation

[mamacags]

Wow, morons on parade.

[franksolich]

Wow, morons on parade.

A colorful and motley retinue, aren't they?

[Zeus]

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. did not say it was
   
just said don't ask Abu Grabib's victims. Are we sure Abu Grabib did not result in long term deaths. ?

Long Term Deaths:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[FlaGator]

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. did not say it was
   
just said don't ask Abu Grabib's victims. Are we sure Abu Grabib did not result in long term deaths. ?

Long Term Deaths:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A long term death, is that like a long prison sentence? Will they be dead for 25 to 30 years and paroled back to life because of good behavior? "He got along real well with the other dead guys, didn' stir up any trouble so let's let him go... we'll have to monitor him, but he really proved himself a changed corpse."

[franksolich]

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. did not say it was
   
just said don't ask Abu Grabib's victims. Are we sure Abu Grabib did not result in long term deaths. ?

Long Term Deaths:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Damn, you're good, sir.

Admirable.

[Rebel]

izquierdista  (1000+ posts)
50. What makes Bush worse
   
All you have done is a near-sighted accountant's tally of the damage. A pound of feathers, a pound of lead, a pound of flesh, they are all the same thing in your calculation, you just tally up the pounds and announce that the highest total is the worst.

Hitler was merely the test case to see how to make fascism sustainable. What modern fascists have learned from him is that there are a few excesses, a few overreaches that will doom a dictator to a short reign with an ignoble end. If they stay within a few boundaries, they can be like Augusto Pinochet, living a life long after the people brutalized by their regime made them rich.

It was over the top to murder hundreds of people a day at Sobibor and Auschwitz; letting a few dozen slowly go crazy and commit suicide in Guantanamo is A-OK.

It was over the top to hunt down the members of the White Rose Society and have them executed; shuffling dissenters away from view into "free speech zones" is A-OK.

It was over the top to set up military zones of occupation with martial law in conquered territories; creating some theatre in order to install a bunch of lackeys who pretend to be in charge is A-OK.

It was over the top to have the Gestapo haul people off to be interrogated in the middle of the night; revoking habeas corpus with the Military Commissions Act is A-OK.

No, Bush is worse precisely because he has learned how far he can take it, without having it fall down from instability. See, it's not that he doesn't want to set up the death camps and invade the whole world and jail his own population, because he does -- he's doing it as fast as he can without suffering the same setbacks as Grampa's buddy Adolph.

Now get this, this is the fool's avatar:


 

[DixieBelle]

A pound of feathers, a pound of lead, a pound of flesh, they are all the same thing in your calculation, you just tally up the pounds and announce that the highest total is the worst.

Umm, wouldn't a a pound of anything compared to another pound of anything still be the same. A freaking pound??? 

cbc5g - that DUmmie isn't long for this world if he keeps saying things like that.

[Chris_]

I see crazy people.....

[Zeus]

cyclezealot  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. did not say it was
   
just said don't ask Abu Grabib's victims. Are we sure Abu Grabib did not result in long term deaths. ?

Long Term Deaths:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Damn, you're good, sir.

Admirable.

Thank You Sir.  I have been known to have moments of Lucidity.

[franksolich]

Oh my.

Oh oh my.

The big guy stepped in, after this bonfire threated to engulf Skins's island.

Skinner  ADMIN Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message

130. Enough threads about Hitler

My fellow alum neglects the usual practice of saying "Locking," but he locked it.

[DixieBelle]

Oh the irony of crushing dissent under the guise of not talking about Hilter. Oh my.

[JohnnyReb]

Skinner  ADMIN Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message

130. Enough threads about Hitler

Afterall, he was a fellow socialist/progressive.

[dutch508]

Messaged edited for stupidity...

izquierdista  (1000+ posts)
50. What makes Bush worse

1. Hitler was merely the test case to see how to make fascism sustainable.

2. It was over the top to murder hundreds of people a day at Sobibor and Auschwitz;
letting a few dozen slowly go crazy and commit suicide in Guantanamo is A-OK.

3. It was over the top to hunt down the members of the White Rose Society and have them executed;
shuffling dissenters away from view into "free speech zones" is A-OK.

4. It was over the top to set up military zones of occupation with martial law in conquered territories;
creating some theatre in order to install a bunch of lackeys who pretend to be in charge is A-OK.

5. It was over the top to have the Gestapo haul people off to be interrogated in the middle of the night;
revoking habeas corpus with the Military Commissions Act is A-OK.

he's doing it as fast as he can without suffering the same setbacks as Grampa's buddy Adolph.

1. A test case? Are you saying that the entire NAZI party was simply a test to see what the 'evil' right wing could get away with sometime later? What a ****ing nut case.

2. A few dozen committed suicide in GITMO? Show me names, dates, situations. These people are ones we captured, in combat, for the most part. They are lucky they didn't get killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Many of them want to die for their cause. We keep them alive, well fed, and no offer them rights that equil those of our own citizens- which they swore to kill.

3. Free speech zones set up by...President Clinton and the DNC.

4. WTF are you talking about? I can not even debate the stupidity in this statement. Three Iraqi election with almost 80% of the population voting. A Government set up by their people in Iraq and Afghanistan. The only problem is they wonder if the US will abandon them after the next election.

5. Prisoners of war have no rights under the US Constitution. Oh, you don't want to call them prisoners of war because the GC wasn't upgraded for an insurgent war? Fine, unlawful combatants, under the GC, also don't have rights. Just because the SCOTUS says they should, don't make it a good idea. Last time I checked, AQ isn't holding our guys in a prison camp. They are cutting their heads off and dumping them in a ditch. I say we play the same way.

[Chris_]

Benhurst  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message

1. No, Bush is no Hitler. But he is 100,000 or so times worse than Charles Manson.

"We've been found out!  Quick, move the goalposts!"

[MrsSmith]

madokie  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message

12. Remember Fallujah
   
remember it was in retaliation of 4 dead mercenaries. remember the white phosphorus raining down upon the Iraqi. No I say that bush is in the same league as Hitler and in some ways worst. Numbers of dead is not a measure of all things wrong in invasion and occupation

madokie's "mad" is evidently NOT the angry kind... must be the other kind 

[dandi]

izquierdista  (1000+ posts)
50. What makes Bush worse

1. Hitler was merely the test case to see how to make fascism sustainable.

2. It was over the top to murder hundreds of people a day at Sobibor and Auschwitz;
letting a few dozen slowly go crazy and commit suicide in Guantanamo is A-OK.

3. It was over the top to hunt down the members of the White Rose Society and have them executed;
shuffling dissenters away from view into "free speech zones" is A-OK.

4. It was over the top to set up military zones of occupation with martial law in conquered territories;
creating some theatre in order to install a bunch of lackeys who pretend to be in charge is A-OK.

5. It was over the top to have the Gestapo haul people off to be interrogated in the middle of the night;
revoking habeas corpus with the Military Commissions Act is A-OK.

he's doing it as fast as he can without suffering the same setbacks as Grampa's buddy Adolph.

Oh ffs that is just some plain lameass shit. You can take any extreme act and find something someone else does as a "watered down" version of it. That doesn't make the two even remotely similar to anyone with common sense.

"Hitler took people who threatened him and had them executed along with their entire families and even their aquaintances."

"Yeah? W-w-well, our government imprisons people for threatening the President! That means he's Hitler-Lite!"

You can play dumbass games like this all day long but they are meaningless.

[delilahmused]

3. It was over the top to hunt down the members of the White Rose Society and have them executed;
shuffling dissenters away from view into "free speech zones" is A-OK.

Now why the hell would we do that? Shots of you idiots parading down Main Street USA with long, stringy hair in your best tie-die t-shirt, carrying cardboard coffins, pathetic little protest signs, and chanting worn-out slogans does more to promote voting for our side than most other things I can think of. Put you in "free speech zones"? Hell NO! I want your lunacy on display for every citizen of this country to see.

Cindie

[FlaGator]

madokie  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message

12. Remember Fallujah
   
remember it was in retaliation of 4 dead mercenaries. remember the white phosphorus raining down upon the Iraqi. No I say that bush is in the same league as Hitler and in some ways worst. Numbers of dead is not a measure of all things wrong in invasion and occupation

madokie's "mad" is evidently NOT the angry kind... must be the other kind 

madokie doesn't remember it either because madokie wasn't there. The only thing madokie knows about this is what the other DUers tell him.