Primitives Pissed Over Protocol

[Revolution]

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. (AP) — An elderly woman being cared for at a Bakersfield retirement facility died after a nurse at the facility refused to perform CPR on the woman after she collapsed, authorities said.
 
When the 87-year-old resident of Glenwood Gardens collapsed at the facility around 11 a.m. Tuesday, a staff member called 911 but refused to give the woman CPR, Bakersfield television station ABC23 reported Friday.
 
In refusing the 911 dispatcher's insistence that she perform CPR, the nurse can be heard telling the dispatcher that it was against the retirement facility's policy to perform CPR.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10022456161

840high (297 posts)

7. What if there

was a DNR order?

bluedigger (9,054 posts)

10. That was not the reason they gave in refusing to perform CPR.

The retirement facility released a statement extending its condolences to the family and said its "practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives."
 
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Elderly-woman-dies-after-nurse-refuses-to-do-CPR-4323453.php#ixzz2MXrXmT8Z
]

LiberalFighter (30,688 posts)

2. They need to lose their license.

Isn't it funny that this would be their exact same response had any of the employees done CPR, and ANYTHING had gone wrong. Not only that, they'd be demanding lawsuits out the wazoo. See libtards, this is what happens when you go screwy about little shit like kids making things with poptarts that ""look" to you like a supposed gun. Your policies are whacked out, and because of them, people are now scared shitless of getting sued, getting called racist, getting maligned, getting the license revoked, etc.

This death rests squarely on your shoulders, lefties. OWN IT! And make no mistake, the more areas of society you get your nasty little grubby fingers on, the more tragedies like this will happen.

[dutch508]

Isn't it funny that this would be their exact same response had any of the employees done CPR, and ANYTHING had gone wrong. Not only that, they'd be demanding lawsuits out the wazoo. See libtards, this is what happens when you go screwy about little shit like kids making things with poptarts that ""look" to you like a supposed gun. Your policies are whacked out, and because of them, people are now scared shitless of getting sued, getting called racist, getting maligned, getting the license revoked, etc.

This death rests squarely on your shoulders, lefties. OWN IT! And make no mistake, the more areas of society you get your nasty little grubby fingers on, the more tragedies like this will happen.

The reason that the Retirement Center has such a policy is so that they cannot be sued if something does go wrong. For example, In our department (Police) we cannot render first aid at the scene for this very reason. We must wait for the EMTs to arrive.

[GOBUCKS]

The reason that the Retirement Center has such a policy is so that they cannot be sued if something does go wrong. For example, In our department (Police) we cannot render first aid at the scene for this very reason. We must wait for the EMTs to arrive.

So, if a policeman comes upon an accident victim who's bleeding to death, he will not apply pressure to the wound?

He will stand there and allow the victim to bleed out and die?

I cannot believe that a police officer, or any other human being, would do that.

[dutch508]

So, if a policeman comes upon an accident victim who's bleeding to death, he will not apply pressure to the wound?

He will stand there and allow the victim to bleed out and die?

I cannot believe that a police officer, or any other human being, would do that.

Until we complete an EMT class we are not to render first aid.

[RobJohnson]

Too much liability thanks to 1-800-Get A CHECK (aka: litigation)

I call 911 when at work, if a by stander wants to help keep a person from bleeding to death they are more then welcome to jump in and help. I can't.

[67 Rover]

Funny, I always thought that the good Samaritan law protected those with basic first aid training that tried to help with good intent/faith?

[AprilRazz]

Funny, I always thought that the good Samaritan law protected those with basic first aid training that tried to help with good intent/faith?

But that won't stop the family from suing the facility. The liability insurance in CA is crazy for places like that. The woman was not in a nursing home but an independent/assisted living facility.
But from what I understand the woman's daughter is a nurse and has no complaint about the care she got. There could have been a DNR or one in the works. We don't really know, but this does not seem to be the crunchy news that some think it is.

[marv]

My wife and I both have DNR living wills. The doctors at our PPO hospital don't like it, but that's the way it is.

[Gina]

Until we complete an EMT class we are not to render first aid.

Is taking a 1st Aid class solely up to you or is it required?

[Big Dog]

Funny, I always thought that the good Samaritan law protected those with basic first aid training that tried to help with good intent/faith?

Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state, but only apply to bystanders (people without an affirmative duty to provide medical care). Licensed health care providers, public safety officers, and health care facilities are not covered.

[AprilRazz]

Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state, but only apply to bystanders (people without an affirmative duty to provide medical care). Licensed health care providers, public safety officers, and health care facilities are not covered.

Well we are covered to a certain extent. A patient can't sue over broken ribs after CPR but can sue if you attempt something that a person at your level was never trained to do. I was trained in the military on how to insert a chest tube. But it is not in my scope of practice/training as a civilian nurse. Therefore if I try doing that on a patient and it goes wrong, good chance I will end up in court. Per Virginia law.

[Big Dog]

Well we are covered to a certain extent. A patient can't sue over broken ribs after CPR but can sue if you attempt something that a person at your level was never trained to do. I was trained in the military on how to insert a chest tube. But it is not in my scope of practice/training as a civilian nurse. Therefore if I try doing that on a patient and it goes wrong, good chance I will end up in court. Per Virginia law.

Is that part of your Good Sam law, or part of the laws for your professional licensure? In NE and MO, where I was licensed as a paramedic, that immunity was part of our licensing laws. My liability insurance provider was very clear about what it would and would not cover.

Samey-same on Army vs. civilian training. I could insert a chest tube as a 91B, but could only do needle chest decompression as a civilian paramedic; also blade vs. needle crichothyrotomy. I was hell on wheels with external jugular lines, since I had ten years' experience before I graduated from paramedic school!

[67 Rover]

Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state, but only apply to bystanders (people without an affirmative duty to provide medical care). Licensed health care providers, public safety officers, and health care facilities are not covered.

Then why bother to have AED machines in the nursing home if no one will bother to use them? I understand they are now reporting that the patient did not in fact have a DNR.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

The first rule of CPR is: if you aren't crushing ribs, you're doing it wrong.

I wouldn't want to perform CPR on an 87 year old.

Sure as **** never in Commiefornia.

[USA4ME]

Part of the application into these retirement facilities are the rules and procedures by which they follow, one of which spells out it is against the retirement facility's policy to perform CPR.  The woman or, if she was mentially incapacitiated, the one who held her Power of Attorney knew about it when they entered and signed up anyway.

.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Then why bother to have AED machines in the nursing home if no one will bother to use them? I understand they are now reporting that the patient did not in fact have a DNR.

Because that's how the government has made it.

You need an AED on the wall because it makes some state legislator of city council critter feel important for having passed the reg because it shows they care. But the rest of the laws they write are intended to hand money to grieving families beacsue that too shows they care.

So now if any 1 of tens of thousands of professional witnesses hired by plaintiff's attorneys say you did any one of ten thousand things wrong you lose your job, your money, your reputation and may even do jail time.

On a 60-year old the odds of CPR being effective are 5 to 10 percent (closer to 5 but I don't want to be a Debbie Downer). For an 87 year old the trauma alone will kill them if the cardiac event doesn't. All anyone will ever hear in court is that when EMS arrived you were standing over a dead woman.

[JohnnyReb]

Call her the first victim of Obamacare.

[FiddyBeowulf]

Until we complete an EMT class we are not to render first aid.

No 1st responder training either? In WI, police recruits have to take so many hours of 1st responder training in order to get certified. At least in the 90's they did.

[Big Dog]

Then why bother to have AED machines in the nursing home if no one will bother to use them? I understand they are now reporting that the patient did not in fact have a DNR.

Good Samaritan laws do not, as a rule, cover actions by staff in a nursing home. The AED in a nursing home may be required by the state agency which certifies the nursing home, and the nursing home staff would be trained to use it on people who need it (and who do not have a DNR).

This lady lived in an independent living facility/assisted care facility, which is different from a nursing home or skilled nursing facility. The state's responsibility will be to investigate whether the facility's policy is in compliance with state law and regulation, and whether the employees followed the policy. The family has the ability to sue, if they think the facility or its employees were negligent or breached a duty. At this point, the family has said they were satisfied, but you never know what will happen if a personal injury lawyer convinces them they can hit the jackpot.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

No 1st responder training either? In WI, police recruits have to take so many hours of 1st responder training in order to get certified. At least in the 90's they did.

Yeah, but if he has CPR training, no EMT training and then does anything, such as put a blank on a patient, could be considered an attempt to "control shock." If the patient later dies of shock (and all dead patients do) then plaintiff's attorney can say he ineffectively rendered aid because he worked outside his scope of practice because controlling shock is an EMT-level skill but not a CPR-level skill.

If my patient dies of shock at least I can say "I tried my best according to the training I recieved."

Modern medical law: a license to kill

[Big Dog]

Yeah, but if he has CPR training, no EMT training and then does anything, such as put a blank on a patient, could be considered an attempt to "control shock." If the patient later dies of shock (and all dead patients do) then plaintiff's attorney can say he ineffectively rendered aid because he worked outside his scope of practice because controlling shock is an EMT-level skill but not a CPR-level skill.

If my patient dies of shock at least I can say "I tried my best according to the training I recieved."

Modern medical law: a license to kill

 

In addition, First Responder and EMT certification has a limitation: it is not an independent license. You respond or provide pre-hospital care for an agency. Fire departments and law enforcement agencies which use their officers as First Responders have written agreements with EMS providers, and written protocols. EMTs must be employed or volunteer for an EMS provider or hospital, which have written protocols and standing orders. 

[Karin]

What you say makes sense, Snugs (and everyone else).  But, it is making for some uncomfortable moments for people when they hear the call in real time.  The robotic "not at this time" line.  The desperate-sounding dispatcher.  "Isn't anyone as a human being going to do something?"  Not in this litigious place.  There's a reason "ambulance chaser" is part of the vernacular.

Call her the first victim of Obamacare.

 Congrats, Obama!  Well played.  

[98ZJUSMC]

Until we complete an EMT class we are not to render first aid.

Welcome to Litigationland.

[vesta111]

In addition, First Responder and EMT certification has a limitation: it is not an independent license. You respond or provide pre-hospital care for an agency. Fire departments and law enforcement agencies which use their officers as First Responders have written agreements with EMS providers, and written protocols. EMTs must be employed or volunteer for an EMS provider or hospital, which have written protocols and standing orders. 

Depends on the state, in some Good Samaritans laws are to protect someone with no medical training that gives aid to another.   Come across a burning car and some poor bugger trapped, you pull them to safty but break their neck doing so-------You are protected.

You are a Doctor, Nurse or EMT who does this you may get sued.

Kind of titchie how all of this works.   Last class I took for first aid about 5 years ago was same old review, except we were told that new changes had come about in CPR, in some situations just the chest compressions were needed. Then the new gadget AED and how to work the device.   Heck the darn thing TALKS you through each step of the way.   I had to laugh as if I would have to ever use that thing this would be the only time in my life I could order a Cop out of the area.  NO two way radios in the area.

As I mentioned before many changes have come to health care, it has been so very long since I had any part in it not in the nursing field but as a factory worker for 22 years.  If there is a need for trained First Aiders it is in the factorys.   Fingers get chopped off, people not looking dart out in front of fork lifts, Amonia leaks and any number of falls cuts and unexpected things happen.  

Worse day of my life was going to Hospital to visit my dad recovering from a heart attack.   When I reached his room the sheets had been pulled about his bed and I could hear a young Nurse crying out that she didn't know what to do.    Someone gave him the paddle and dad came back with an outragious out of body experience to tell anyone he could corner for a couple months.   Did I believe his story, Well Dad did some odd things, he was a Mason and Shriner and left the house wearing odd clothing and was a teller of Sea Storys, perhaps his last gift to us was to never fear death------Who knows.      

[BlueStateSaint]

The first rule of CPR is: if you aren't crushing ribs, you're doing it wrong.

A friend of mine from grade school and high school was staying at his parents' house a few years ago when his father woke him up--his mother had stopped breathing.  Well, Greg started to do CPR, and actually broke a few of his mother's ribs while performing it.  It didn't revive her.