Author Topic: A political question for our Catholic members  (Read 5770 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ballygrl

  • Lipstick Renegade
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14934
  • Reputation: +983/-120
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 10:27:45 PM »
You're probably not old enough to remember the blue Baltimore Catechism (for younger children) and the dark green Baltimore Catechism (for older children); I think they'd been replaced by circa 1980.  Easy to read, easy to understand.  I dunno what's replaced them, but it surely can't be as good as this pair.

I'm about your age and I don't remember that at all, were you taught that? I hate to say it but I mentally slept through Religion Class, we had it everyday and it's 1 of those things that didn't hold my interest.
Quote
"The nation that couldn’t be conquered by foreign enemies has been conquered by its elected officials" odawg Free Republic in reference to the GOP Elites who are no difference than the Democrats

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3096/-173
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 10:34:57 PM »
I'm about your age and I don't remember that at all, were you taught that? I hate to say it but I mentally slept through Religion Class, we had it everyday and it's 1 of those things that didn't hold my interest.

Yeah, I found them good, even though they were considered somewhat outdated at the time.

I just mentioned this because yes, they're still good, and for an adult quick and easy to read, questions followed by well-explained answers mostly.  They explained Canon Law and an adult could probably read one in half an hour.

I assume you went to a parochial school; I didn't (none were around).  All I learned of religion, I learned in church, and classes were usually conducted by the stereotypical sweet nice gentle kind loving pleasant nuns from a nunnery 75 miles distant.

<<never met a nun who wasn't saintly in patience and manner.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline Ballygrl

  • Lipstick Renegade
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14934
  • Reputation: +983/-120
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 10:41:39 PM »
Yeah, I found them good, even though they were considered somewhat outdated at the time.

I just mentioned this because yes, they're still good, and for an adult quick and easy to read, questions followed by well-explained answers mostly.  They explained Canon Law and an adult could probably read one in half an hour.

I assume you went to a parochial school; I didn't (none were around).  All I learned of religion, I learned in church, and classes were usually conducted by the stereotypical sweet nice gentle kind loving pleasant nuns from a nunnery 75 miles distant.

<<never met a nun who wasn't saintly in patience and manner.

Yes, 12 years of Catholic School and Religion Class everyday. And OMG about the Nuns, they weren't that great in the 60's and early 70's at least the ones we came in contact with, they wore the old habits, the long black flowing dresses and the habits that were so large that their foreheads were scrunched down, my 1st Grade Teacher was a Nun and she was literally sadistic, and a racist, I heard that she left the Sisterhood. In 4th Grade we had an older Nun who was mean mean mean, she had glasses and beady little eyes and would beat the kids. After 4th Grade it seemed to change and the Nuns got a million times better, and they're awesome in this day and age.
Quote
"The nation that couldn’t be conquered by foreign enemies has been conquered by its elected officials" odawg Free Republic in reference to the GOP Elites who are no difference than the Democrats

Offline Ballygrl

  • Lipstick Renegade
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14934
  • Reputation: +983/-120
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 10:42:40 PM »
<<<<<Has 2 former Nuns and a Priest in the Family Tree.
Quote
"The nation that couldn’t be conquered by foreign enemies has been conquered by its elected officials" odawg Free Republic in reference to the GOP Elites who are no difference than the Democrats

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3096/-173
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 10:47:31 PM »
<<<<<Has 2 former Nuns and a Priest in the Family Tree.

You realize what I've been doing here, the last few comments.

Trying to give ChuckJ and others illumination into why we think the ways we do.

<<has a maternal cousin a few years younger than myself a priest in the U.S. military.  It was weird, because earlier in life he was a spoiled rich kid.  I dunno what changed him, but it's been thirty years now, and he's still at it.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline Ballygrl

  • Lipstick Renegade
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14934
  • Reputation: +983/-120
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 10:59:23 PM »
You realize what I've been doing here, the last few comments.

Trying to give ChuckJ and others illumination into why we think the ways we do.

<<has a maternal cousin a few years younger than myself a priest in the U.S. military.  It was weird, because earlier in life he was a spoiled rich kid.  I dunno what changed him, but it's been thirty years now, and he's still at it.

That's fine. I think we might come across as secretive sometimes with Catholicism, but we're not, we just do things different than other Religions. We were surprised the 2 left the Sisterhood, but they left at a time when it was more accepted in the Church.
Quote
"The nation that couldn’t be conquered by foreign enemies has been conquered by its elected officials" odawg Free Republic in reference to the GOP Elites who are no difference than the Democrats

Offline Zeus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3265
  • Reputation: +174/-112
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2012, 02:48:57 AM »
BIDEN MUST HAVE FAILED OUT OF SUNDAY SCHOOL

Quote
During Thursday night’s debate, Vice President Joe Biden was asked by moderator Martha Raddatz to address his Roman Catholicism and his position on abortion. He stated in a very somber tone that “My religion defines who I am,” and that he’s a practicing Catholic.

It’s not odd to hear those two statements hand-in-hand with one another, but the true mystery in Biden’s remarks came when he described the Church’s teaching on abortion and his answer to the same:

Quote
I accept my church’s position on abortion as a — what we call a de fide doctrine. Life begins at conception in the church’s judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews, and I just refuse to impose that on others… (Emphasis added.)

First of all, to any genuinely principled person who takes the teachings of the Catholic Church seriously, there would not have to be such a drastic divide between one’s personal life of faith and the life of public service.  In fact, it seems that upon a cursory observation, the two worlds would inform each other, one enriching the other, with the primary enrichment going from that of faith to that of life in the world.  This is, however, not necessarily the platform in which one should address the complete disjunction in the vice president’s life.

Secondly, and to the most important point, how on earth is the Church’s teaching on abortion one that is de fide?  To say that a particular tenet of the faith is de fide, is to say several things: Firstly, that it is something explicitly revealed by God to the Church. Secondly, that it has been declared by the Church — either through the teaching of the pope or a dogmatic council — to be true and a necessary part of the faith. And, thirdly,  that while there can be reasons from the light of a human person’s intellect used to make belief more palatable — take for instance the Church’s use of Duns Scotus’s philosophical justification for the Immaculate Conception — the doctrine ultimately escapes reasoning through the natural faculties of the human person’s mind alone, and consequently must be acceded to on the basis of faith.

For our purposes, the first and third points made above are of particular importance. When Biden asserts that the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion is something that has been explicitly revealed by God, he is outright false.  The history of the Church has been marked with a developed and markedly particular understanding of the human person in the womb.  Granted, medieval biology may have led Thomas Aquinas to assert that the fetus was not “ensouled” until after the first few weeks following conception, the point remains unchanged that the Church has always viewed the intentional killing of a child in the womb as murder and, therefore, unlawful.

Simply because the Church has been more vocal about her opposition to abortion does not mean that it was encouraged or tolerated in the past.  Rather, as the doctrinal history of the Church demonstrates, teachings are refined and promulgated when there is a grave threat against which the Church must fight.  In other words, the development of the deeper definition that is so pronounced in contemporary times is done in response to the attacks of a hostile culture that favors and abets the evil of abortion.

Now, one of the gifts of the Catholic intellectual tradition is that it works to harmonize both the use and conclusions of human reasoning and the sometimes difficult-to-believe aspects of a supernatural faith.  In this tradition, the reliance upon and favor given to reason is striking.  Catholic theologians and indeed most priests must study philosophy for several years before they can proceed on to study theology.  When the vice president asserted that the Church’s position on abortion is de fide, he without a doubt concomitantly claimed that that position is one which does not rely on reason or natural science.

If anything, such a claim is completely unfounded, given that the Church’s teaching on abortion is based both on the inherent dignity of the human person, no matter what its state or position in life, and the reasonableness of a natural law, which dictates to our consciences a certain way of acting that seeks first to do what is good and to avoid that which is deemed evil — or contrary to the good.  For the Church, the act of willfully killing another person, particularly a person who is most vulnerable, is a great and terrible evil.

Therefore, when Biden proposed Thursday night that the Church’s view on the intrinsic dignity of life was something he couldn’t both understand through reason or seek to convince others of, he did not only a great disservice to the weak who rely on the protection of those in power, he also misled those in the Catholic Church who look to their elected officials to be an example of what is right and just in a free country.
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline Ausonius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Reputation: +66/-4
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2012, 06:27:54 AM »
As I wrote elsewhere yesterday, Biden has excommunicated himself with such beliefs about abortion and by accepting the Democrat platform about homosexuality and other modern errors inimical to Catholic morality (and morality in general, I would hope!).

When one rejects so many major tenets of a religion, exactly how does one still call oneself a member of that religion?

I have heard such leftist Catholics actually argue that Dem "concern for the poor" and their "antiwar stance" trump the promotion of the killing of the unborn: "You have to look at the whole picture!"

In logic, when part of a statement is false, it falsifies the entire statement.  Such thinking is therefore difficult to change with a rational argument, because the people are not thinking rationally to begin with!
"Every democracy eventually becomes a bilge pump expelling the most hilarious and unwitting self-satire."

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2012, 06:54:31 AM »
As I wrote elsewhere yesterday, Biden has excommunicated himself with such beliefs about abortion and by accepting the Democrat platform about homosexuality and other modern errors inimical to Catholic morality (and morality in general, I would hope!).

When one rejects so many major tenets of a religion, exactly how does one still call oneself a member of that religion?

I have heard such leftist Catholics actually argue that Dem "concern for the poor" and their "antiwar stance" trump the promotion of the killing of the unborn: "You have to look at the whole picture!"

In logic, when part of a statement is false, it falsifies the entire statement.  Such thinking is therefore difficult to change with a rational argument, because the people are not thinking rationally to begin with!

'Zackly. Biden is a plastic, hollow, completely false and substanceless politician. He's worse than most.

And the tragedy is, he's too stupid to realize it. He thinks, just like his boss, that all he's got to do is flap his lips and "truth" spills forth. As long as that "truth" is characterized by methane gas and requires special processes to clean it up and remove the stink, he's not going to get very far with rational, clear-thinking adults.
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3096/-173
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2012, 07:00:04 AM »
Quote
.....the Church’s teaching on abortion is based both on the inherent dignity of the human person, no matter what its state or position in life, and the reasonableness of a natural law, which dictates to our consciences a certain way of acting that seeks first to do what is good and to avoid that which is deemed evil — or contrary to the good.  For the Church, the act of willfully killing another person, particularly a person who is most vulnerable, is a great and terrible evil.

Yep, that's exactly what we're taught, and it's always made sense to me, even as a child.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline Splashdown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6729
  • Reputation: +475/-100
  • Out of 9 lives, I spent 7
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2012, 08:29:26 AM »
One of the biggest problems, as I see it, is that in the '60s and '70s, a strain of liberalism infected seminaries like a virus. Because of this, there was a weakening of dogmatic teaching. This leads to moral equivalency--meaning that abortion issues are no more important than, say care for the poor and "social justice" issues. This is contrary to church belief. Abortion, for example, is murder. There can be give and take on how best to care for the less fortunate in our society. This liberalism gave political cover to liberal, pro-abortion catholics like Biden and Pelosi.

If the Catholic Church would have fought harder against Roe v. Wade, it wouldn't be the law of the land today.
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
--St. Theresa of Avila



"No crushed ice; no peas." -- Undies

Offline ChuckJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4796
  • Reputation: +534/-37
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2012, 06:28:26 PM »
I want to thank everyone, especially those of you who are Catholics, for taking the time to respond.

And frank, the Catholics aren't the only ones who have been infected by liberalism. The Baptists have had problems with it also. As I understand it there are some Baptist seminaries that are turning out folks that would be best buddies with Obama and his bunch. Jimmy Carter even started his own Baptist group: New Baptist Covenant.

I guess what makes me so made about Biden, Pelosi, and other like them is this:
I, as a Baptist, and you guys, as Catholics, may disagree on a lot of doctrinal points, but there are also a lot of doctrinal points that we agree on. We agree on these points mostly because they are spelled out plainly. It is these things that they seem intent on perverting. My thoughts are if you're going to be a Catholic actually be a Catholic. If you're not going to be a Catholic you need to find yourself one of those funky-feel-good religions that let you do whatever you want.
“Don’t vote for the person who tells you you deserve something. Just don’t do it if it’s something other than life, liberty, or the pursuit of possible happiness. If everyone is telling you you deserve something, vote for the one who is promising you the least. Be suspicious of the man or woman who tell you deserve everything. Because you don’t.” ---Mike Rowe

Offline Ausonius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Reputation: +66/-4
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2012, 06:37:22 PM »
I want to thank everyone, especially those of you who are Catholics, for taking the time to respond.

I guess what makes me so made about Biden, Pelosi, and other like them is this:
I, as a Baptist, and you guys, as Catholics, may disagree on a lot of doctrinal points, but there are also a lot of doctrinal points that we agree on. We agree on these points mostly because they are spelled out plainly. It is these things that they seem intent on perverting. My thoughts are if you're going to be a Catholic actually be a Catholic. If you're not going to be a Catholic you need to find yourself one of those funky-feel-good religions that let you do whatever you want.

Amen!   O-)  As I wrote earlier, they are not really Catholic any longer, despite their entry into a church to pander for votes.  Perhaps the Catholic bishops - now that the antipathy of this atheistic administration is overt and not to be contradicted - will start to deny these pseudo-Catholics the sacraments.

Barring them from even entering a church would be nice also...bot don't expect that!   :whistling:
"Every democracy eventually becomes a bilge pump expelling the most hilarious and unwitting self-satire."

Offline Splashdown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6729
  • Reputation: +475/-100
  • Out of 9 lives, I spent 7
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2012, 06:39:16 PM »
Hi-5 to that, ChuckJ.

 :cheersmate:
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
--St. Theresa of Avila



"No crushed ice; no peas." -- Undies

Offline NHSparky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24431
  • Reputation: +1278/-617
  • Where are you going? I was gonna make espresso!
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2012, 07:22:36 PM »
Money and politics keep the Kennedys and the Kerrys from being excommunicated.   

That is fact.

Can't argue with that.  Visit some homes in South Boston and there are bigger shrines to the Kennedys than to Jesus.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2012, 07:29:08 AM »
One of the biggest problems, as I see it, is that in the '60s and '70s, a strain of liberalism infected seminaries like a virus. Because of this, there was a weakening of dogmatic teaching. This leads to moral equivalency--meaning that abortion issues are no more important than, say care for the poor and "social justice" issues. This is contrary to church belief. Abortion, for example, is murder. There can be give and take on how best to care for the less fortunate in our society. This liberalism gave political cover to liberal, pro-abortion catholics like Biden and Pelosi.

If the Catholic Church would have fought harder against Roe v. Wade, it wouldn't be the law of the land today.
It also gives the rich church members of any religion "cover" for their spin on caring for the poor.  Jesus places that responsibility clearly on individuals, but those that should be giving much to the poor can use the flawed theology to claim that "We the People" are those called to care for the poor, so taxes are to be used that way.  That is one flawed theology that is killing both our economy and our freedom.  Biden and Obama are both clear examples of this flaw, along with many many many liberals and leftists.
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.

Offline ChuckJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4796
  • Reputation: +534/-37
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2012, 10:19:42 AM »
It also gives the rich church members of any religion "cover" for their spin on caring for the poor.  Jesus places that responsibility clearly on individuals, but those that should be giving much to the poor can use the flawed theology to claim that "We the People" are those called to care for the poor, so taxes are to be used that way.  That is one flawed theology that is killing both our economy and our freedom.  Biden and Obama are both clear examples of this flaw, along with many many many liberals and leftists.

Well said MrsSmith. I've always thought that was one of the reasons (along with the perversion factor) that so many celebs were liberals.
“Don’t vote for the person who tells you you deserve something. Just don’t do it if it’s something other than life, liberty, or the pursuit of possible happiness. If everyone is telling you you deserve something, vote for the one who is promising you the least. Be suspicious of the man or woman who tell you deserve everything. Because you don’t.” ---Mike Rowe

Offline Ausonius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Reputation: +66/-4
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2012, 10:42:26 AM »
Voting for liberal taxation to "care for the poor" divorces us from specifically helping the poor directly, or at least semi-directly, either by voluntarism or by donating to a legitimate charity.

How much of our taxes goes to pay $50,000 + per year bureaucrats in Health and Human Services vs. the amount actually targeted for "the poor" ?

Before the bureaucratization of poverty relief, churches, synagogues, private charities, and friends and family handled problems with poverty/unemployment/etc.  Much of this activity has now been swallowed by government!
"Every democracy eventually becomes a bilge pump expelling the most hilarious and unwitting self-satire."

Offline ChuckJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4796
  • Reputation: +534/-37
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2012, 11:39:46 AM »
Voting for liberal taxation to "care for the poor" divorces us from specifically helping the poor directly, or at least semi-directly, either by voluntarism or by donating to a legitimate charity.

How much of our taxes goes to pay $50,000 + per year bureaucrats in Health and Human Services vs. the amount actually targeted for "the poor" ?

Before the bureaucratization of poverty relief, churches, synagogues, private charities, and friends and family handled problems with poverty/unemployment/etc.  Much of this activity has now been swallowed by government!

And they were able to do it better than the government because they knew if the people really needed help or if they were just lazy.
“Don’t vote for the person who tells you you deserve something. Just don’t do it if it’s something other than life, liberty, or the pursuit of possible happiness. If everyone is telling you you deserve something, vote for the one who is promising you the least. Be suspicious of the man or woman who tell you deserve everything. Because you don’t.” ---Mike Rowe

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2012, 12:07:50 PM »
And they were able to do it better than the government because they knew if the people really needed help or if they were just lazy.

I dunno, Chuck.

I've worked in enough soup kitchens and similar type charities to note that, first, most of these charities/churches take special pains not to be judgmental. They/we serve all who show up. We'll feed them, clothe them, and house them.

Some of these folks are clearly gaming the system and while they'll stand there with their hand out and expect it to be filled, most of 'em don't hang on for dear life because there are PEOPLE who are ministering to them. These folks game the system and that makes 'em uncomfortable enough to grab it and run.

When these folks are getting handouts from the government, it's just a faceless bureaucrat who's handing out the goodies -- not somebody who has volunteered his time and talents and treasures to serve the same schmuck who's gaming the system.

Even thieves have a little bit of honor, especially those who bilk charities for a meal or a place to sleep overnight. These thieves won't really look you in the eye while they have their hand out -- they are ashamed.

Ain't no such thing when they're feeding at the public trough. Just belch and pass the ketchup. Oh, and fix me a plate to go.

 :whatever:
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline ChuckJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4796
  • Reputation: +534/-37
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2012, 02:28:48 PM »
I dunno, Chuck.

I've worked in enough soup kitchens and similar type charities to note that, first, most of these charities/churches take special pains not to be judgmental. They/we serve all who show up. We'll feed them, clothe them, and house them.

Some of these folks are clearly gaming the system and while they'll stand there with their hand out and expect it to be filled, most of 'em don't hang on for dear life because there are PEOPLE who are ministering to them. These folks game the system and that makes 'em uncomfortable enough to grab it and run.

When these folks are getting handouts from the government, it's just a faceless bureaucrat who's handing out the goodies -- not somebody who has volunteered his time and talents and treasures to serve the same schmuck who's gaming the system.

Even thieves have a little bit of honor, especially those who bilk charities for a meal or a place to sleep overnight. These thieves won't really look you in the eye while they have their hand out -- they are ashamed.

Ain't no such thing when they're feeding at the public trough. Just belch and pass the ketchup. Oh, and fix me a plate to go.

 :whatever:

I agree that there is always going to be people who try to scam the system, but there's still a difference. The first is that the local charities and churches can decide that they've had enough and make informed decisions about who to help. The second difference is that the local charities and churches are doing the helping with money that was freely given by people and/or church members in that community instead of money that was stolen out of someone's paycheck.

I was a member of a small Baptist church way out in the woods. I don't know how much you know about small county churches, but for them their annual homecoming is a big deal. They have preaching, singing (sometimes with groups), and a big dinner.

We used to have one family that would only show up at homecoming. They wouldn't come to church any other day. There was four of them. A man, a woman, a grown son, and a grown daughter. They would show up just about the time the eating started. You could watch as each of them filled a plate, took it to their car, and put it in the trunk. Each of them would do this repeatedly. After doing this for several years the church deacons began doing some investigating.

The family did this to every small church in the area. They never went to any of the churches except to eat. None of them worked. None of them were disabled.

The next homecoming when the family showed up the deacons discretely had a talk with them. It's my understanding that they told the family that they were more than welcome to come to church any time they wanted. That if they were truly in need the church would be more than willing to help them in any way the church could. And that they were more than welcome to to eat at the church until their hunger was satisfied, but they couldn't fill up the trunk of their car like the church was their personal catering service because there were other people that needed to eat also.

The family never showed up again.
“Don’t vote for the person who tells you you deserve something. Just don’t do it if it’s something other than life, liberty, or the pursuit of possible happiness. If everyone is telling you you deserve something, vote for the one who is promising you the least. Be suspicious of the man or woman who tell you deserve everything. Because you don’t.” ---Mike Rowe

Offline Eupher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24894
  • Reputation: +2828/-1828
  • U.S. Army, Retired
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2012, 03:33:07 PM »
I agree that there is always going to be people who try to scam the system, but there's still a difference. The first is that the local charities and churches can decide that they've had enough and make informed decisions about who to help. The second difference is that the local charities and churches are doing the helping with money that was freely given by people and/or church members in that community instead of money that was stolen out of someone's paycheck.

I was a member of a small Baptist church way out in the woods. I don't know how much you know about small county churches, but for them their annual homecoming is a big deal. They have preaching, singing (sometimes with groups), and a big dinner.

We used to have one family that would only show up at homecoming. They wouldn't come to church any other day. There was four of them. A man, a woman, a grown son, and a grown daughter. They would show up just about the time the eating started. You could watch as each of them filled a plate, took it to their car, and put it in the trunk. Each of them would do this repeatedly. After doing this for several years the church deacons began doing some investigating.

The family did this to every small church in the area. They never went to any of the churches except to eat. None of them worked. None of them were disabled.

The next homecoming when the family showed up the deacons discretely had a talk with them. It's my understanding that they told the family that they were more than welcome to come to church any time they wanted. That if they were truly in need the church would be more than willing to help them in any way the church could. And that they were more than welcome to to eat at the church until their hunger was satisfied, but they couldn't fill up the trunk of their car like the church was their personal catering service because there were other people that needed to eat also.

The family never showed up again.

Well, the church that we've attended is pretty small - about 100 active members.  Maybe 150 on the rolls.

I agree that the preferred approach up and down the line is to relegate charity to those organizations that are best equipped to handle it - churches, local charities being the favored - and that those organizations retain the decision-making to donate how much and to whom the proceeds go.

The government - even local government - is ill-equipped to make those decision and the federal government is so far out of touch it's ridiculous. Look at the Katrina debacle. While GWB took a lot of heat for a lot of crap, there's plenty of evidence that the breakdown occurred at the state level, which is a whole 'nother level of bureaucracy altogether.

Getting back to your illustration of your small country church, it seems to me that the church membership expected the church leaders to step up and, in an appropriate way, address or even confront these freeloaders. It sounds like they did it the right way and while extending an invitation to be a part of the church on a more or less regular basis, but close the door on providing food on a sustained basis.

Contrast this with my pastor. This is the type of guy who will NOT confront these freeloaders in any way, shape or form. He doesn't make a lot of money to begin with, but will dig in his pocket for whatever is there and hand it out to the local freeloaders whenever he can. And I knew another pastor from another church who did the same thing.

As long as they're passing out their OWN money, no problem. But if it's the church's money/assets/proceeds, a little bit of accountability is not out of line.
Adams E2 Euphonium, built in 2017
Boosey & Co. Imperial Euphonium, built in 1941
Edwards B454 bass trombone, built 2012
Bach Stradivarius 42OG tenor trombone, built 1992
Kanstul 33-T BBb tuba, built 2011
Fender Precision Bass Guitar, built ?
Mouthpiece data provided on request.

Offline ChuckJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4796
  • Reputation: +534/-37
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2012, 03:59:55 PM »
Well, the church that we've attended is pretty small - about 100 active members.  Maybe 150 on the rolls.

I agree that the preferred approach up and down the line is to relegate charity to those organizations that are best equipped to handle it - churches, local charities being the favored - and that those organizations retain the decision-making to donate how much and to whom the proceeds go.

The government - even local government - is ill-equipped to make those decision and the federal government is so far out of touch it's ridiculous. Look at the Katrina debacle. While GWB took a lot of heat for a lot of crap, there's plenty of evidence that the breakdown occurred at the state level, which is a whole 'nother level of bureaucracy altogether.

Getting back to your illustration of your small country church, it seems to me that the church membership expected the church leaders to step up and, in an appropriate way, address or even confront these freeloaders. It sounds like they did it the right way and while extending an invitation to be a part of the church on a more or less regular basis, but close the door on providing food on a sustained basis.

Contrast this with my pastor. This is the type of guy who will NOT confront these freeloaders in any way, shape or form. He doesn't make a lot of money to begin with, but will dig in his pocket for whatever is there and hand it out to the local freeloaders whenever he can. And I knew another pastor from another church who did the same thing.

As long as they're passing out their OWN money, no problem. But if it's the church's money/assets/proceeds, a little bit of accountability is not out of line.

A hundred active? That's huge compared to the church I'm talking about. It had about 25 active.

I'm like you when it comes to their own money, but I have had pastors that would volunteer the church's money.

That's one of the reasons that I wouldn't want to be a pastor. One that is doing his job properly has to do some tough things that sometimes goes against his nature.
“Don’t vote for the person who tells you you deserve something. Just don’t do it if it’s something other than life, liberty, or the pursuit of possible happiness. If everyone is telling you you deserve something, vote for the one who is promising you the least. Be suspicious of the man or woman who tell you deserve everything. Because you don’t.” ---Mike Rowe

Offline Ausonius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Reputation: +66/-4
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2012, 06:04:29 PM »
A priest once explained to us that we should not worry (too much) about being defrauded, when we donate to charity cases.  One's generosity is still appreciated.

The assumption was that an occasional fraud should not prevent one from showing charity, that fraud should not be an excuse to stop or limit one's charitable impulses.  By having government pre-empt its citizens' charitable impulses, the government has a deleterious effect on the psychology of its citizens, i.e. they will become less charitable.

We see this already among Dems: polls and surveys continually show that Dems rarely come close to Republicans in donations to charity.  I have also seen this in Germany: people practically never give anything to the churches, charities, or e.g. organize fund-raising events for someone in need of an operation, or in need after a fire, hurricane, etc.

The latter example sticks in my mind: a teacher from Germany was visiting me and wondered what a "fund-raiser" meant, and after I explained what it was, he shook his head and said: "That would never happen in Germany."

And the reason why?  People expected such a problem to be handled by government social-welfare bureaucrats!

The coming together of friends, relatives, neighbors, and strangers for a common purpose would not happen.


And that is why our huge welfare state is a disaster.

"Every democracy eventually becomes a bilge pump expelling the most hilarious and unwitting self-satire."

Offline MrsSmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5977
  • Reputation: +465/-54
Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2012, 07:16:04 PM »
I agree that there is always going to be people who try to scam the system, but there's still a difference. The first is that the local charities and churches can decide that they've had enough and make informed decisions about who to help. The second difference is that the local charities and churches are doing the helping with money that was freely given by people and/or church members in that community instead of money that was stolen out of someone's paycheck.


The third difference is that 100% (or really close to 100%) of the donated money goes directly to the needs of the people.  With government overhead, they can't compete with the worst rip-off "charity" out there. 
.
.


Antifa - the only fascists in America today.