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Offline ChuckJ

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A political question for our Catholic members
« on: October 12, 2012, 03:16:25 PM »
As many here know, I am a Baptist. Even though we share a common bond in salvation due to our acceptance of Jesus Christ I do have some doctrinal differences with the Catholic faith. Despite these differences there are things that I've come to respect over the years regarding the Catholic faith. Especially the Church's official stance on marriage and the life of the unborn. These two issues are what brought to mind my questions.

Considering the official stance of the Church, how can there be so many Democrat politicians who claim to be practicing Catholics? Why are politicians who promote abortion and  homosexual marriage allowed to remain in union with the Church?

Is this something that is decided by the individual priests? How much leeway do the priests have in these situations?

Due to research through the years I have some basic (very basic) knowledge of the structure of the Catholic Church, but I don't know the particulars of the flow of power in regard to these decisions.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 04:08:32 PM »
Money and politics keep the Kennedys and the Kerrys from being excommunicated.   

That is fact.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 04:17:04 PM »
The priests have no leeway; if someone wishes Communion, it's given, no matter what the priest thinks, or knows, of the person.

We all pretty much know Bela Pelosi and Joe Biden aren't really good Catholics, but if they wish to advertise themselves so, nothing's stopping them.

The Catholic Church is not a civil authority (excepting of course in Vatican City itself), and so has no power to stop anyone from doing one thing or another, or to punish them.

So it makes for a very murky, ambiguous situation that leaves many wondering; however, as in all things, God, and God Alone, determines who was a "real" Catholic and who was a poseur.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 05:46:59 PM »
Quote
So it makes for a very murky, ambiguous situation that leaves many wondering; however, as in all things, God, and God Alone, determines who was a "real" Catholic and who was a poseur.

Well said Frank.

The same can be said about the various Protestant religions as well.
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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 06:19:04 PM »
Quote from: franksolich on October 12, 2012, 04:17:04 PM
The priests have no leeway; if someone wishes Communion, it's given, no matter what the priest thinks, or knows, of the person.

We all pretty much know Bela Pelosi and Joe Biden aren't really good Catholics, but if they wish to advertise themselves so, nothing's stopping them.

The Catholic Church is not a civil authority (excepting of course in Vatican City itself), and so has no power to stop anyone from doing one thing or another, or to punish them.

So it makes for a very murky, ambiguous situation that leaves many wondering; however, as in all things, God, and God Alone, determines who was a "real" Catholic and who was a poseur.

frank,

I'm not so much talking about calling themselves Catholic. I'm talking about allowing them to participate as a member of the church.

With my branch of Baptists each church is essentially an individual entity. The church may or not be a member of a larger organization, but the organization doesn't control the individual church. The individual church could, if they so desired, expel a member who refuses to respect the doctrine or rules of the church. The expelled individual could still call themselves a Baptist. The individual could even find another Baptist church that is part of the organization to attend, but until such time as the expelled individual met whatever requirements set forth by the church he (or she) would no longer be in fellowship with the church and would not be allowed to participate with the church.

With that said, I don't know of any Independent Baptist, Southern Baptist, or Primitive Baptist church in my area who has done something like this in my lifetime.

My paternal grandparents were a member of a group called that split many years ago from the Primitive Baptist church. They were called Hardshells. They had electricity in their homes, but not in their churches. They didn't have televisions or radios. They WOULD indeed expel you from the church if you broke their rules. When you were expelled you could no longer participate with the church until you repented of whatever you had done wrong. They actually expelled my granddad once, and he was the pastor.

My grandparents' group would kick most of the democrat politicians out so fast it would make their heads spin.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 06:21:22 PM by ChuckJ »
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Offline EagleKeeper

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 06:32:06 PM »
First of all I am agnostic, years ago I was a baptist.

This is only my opinion, and would be happy to be schooled if I am wrong.

I think the problem begins with a deeply flawed understanding of what I think is Mathew 7:1.

Without looking it up my understanding is that it goes "Judge not lest ye be judged".

I think that some folkes take this to heart in a literal sense and therefore resist forming an opinion or making a judgment.

Like I said, I believe this is a flawed understanding and it allows moral reletavism to be used as an excuse.
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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 06:36:29 PM »
Quote from: EagleKeeper on October 12, 2012, 06:32:06 PM
First of all I am agnostic, years ago I was a baptist.

This is only my opinion, and would be happy to be schooled if I am wrong.

I think the problem begins with a deeply flawed understanding of what I think is Mathew 7:1.

Without looking it up my understanding is that it goes "Judge not lest ye be judged".

I think that some folkes take this to heart in a literal sense and therefore resist forming an opinion or making a judgment.

Like I said, I believe this is a flawed understanding and it allows moral reletavism to be used as an excuse.

I agree with you. Over the years people have taken something that tells you to use caution in your judgement and twisted it to mean do NOT judge at all.
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Offline EagleKeeper

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 06:51:03 PM »
I believe that Biden revealed last night in the debate that he understood that the Catholic church reveals that life is formed at conception and then went on to explain that he would not "force" his and the Catholic churches understanding on others.

Again , I think that is flawed thinking, did God admonish us to not form an opinion and not follow the given word or to just not take life into our own hands?
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Offline Splashdown

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »
What a tough question, Chuck!

As a lifelong Catholic, I find this a tricky area. Of course, I'm not a bishop, so it's way, way above my pay grade.

First, it's important to realize that Catholics believe the bread and wine we consume are actually the Body and Blood of Christ. It's not supposed to be symbolic. It's the real incarnation. If Catholics truly understood what was happening at Mass, they would, I think be much, much more reverent.

We invite Christ himself into us in the Eucharist; we are supposed to be clean of sin when it happens. Here's the problem. Promoting abortion, for example, is a grave sin. How can Bishops allow these "catholics" to receive?

I did some research.

Cannon Law 915:
Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.

The trick, as I understand it, is how to decide if a sin is "manifest," and are the offenders "obstinate." Those definitions are broad.

Some bishops say it is the reponsibility of the Communicant to make sure he or she is properly disposed.

Many traditional Catholics feel this rule has not been applied clearly enough, and because of that, priests and bishops are now afraid to follow it.

Does this help at all?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 06:53:59 PM »
I just read this earlier.  It's a comment on an article having to do with last nights debate.

Quote
mbecker908 • an hour ago • parent −
Well,


To those wanting the immediate excommunication of pro-abortion politicians, I have to say that canon law simply does not read that way. To make a long story short, an excommunication for abortion has to be linked to a specific abortion and, given the structure of American government and medical institutions, one simply can't link a given legislator's vote with a specific abortion within the limits of causality recognized by canon law.
[...]
In the meantime, though, as I have also pointed out many times, there are most certainly immediate actions that the Church can take against pro-abortion politicians, and I'm happy to say that some bishops are doing that. I have in mind here, for example, the withholding of the Eucharist...

I don't pretend to be an expert, or even knowledgeable on cannon law, but I find the first paragraph to be rather incredulous. He's reading the law to give a pass to the very people who make the murder of the innocent possible after noting above:


...a given Catholic committed an action for which automatic excommunication is the penalty (for example, heresy, schism, abortion)...
Abortion equals automatic excommunication but facilitating the abortion draws a pass. BIG disconnect.

That said, how about withholding the Eucharist and public condemnation of the offending politician? If, as the author notes in the linked piece that the whole point of excommunication is to reform the sinner, and if we assume the offending politician is indeed a sinner by denying Church doctrine, how can the Church remain silent and how can they justify withholding all punishment?
 Redstate.
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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 08:03:25 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys. I realize that it is a tough question. I guess I'm just frustrated and aggravated by these people who go against God at every opportunity but at election time all of a sudden want to proclaim that they are a practicing Catholic (Baptist or whatever) and use it like a badge of honor. It gets to the point that I want the church to publicly and loudly announce each and every piece of doctrine that the politician is going against or has violated.

I purposely mentioned the Catholic Church because I expect more out of them when it comes to marriage and abortion.

Before any of the Catholics here take issue with the above sentence let me say that it is not in any way intended as a slight. It is actually intended as a compliment. For some reason I'm having a tough time translating what I want to say from my head to the keyboard.
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 08:21:05 PM »
I was listening to a sermon by Dr. Jeffress this morning (if you don't recognize the name, he's the preacher that made the media so angry when he said Christians should vote for Christians when Perry was still in the race.)   His comment this morning runs along this topic, it was something like, "Many people tell you that you can't legislate morality.  Yet all legislation is based on some moral value.  The question is WHAT moral value do you want to base it on, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist..."

It's a complete cop-out to make a statement like Biden's, that he believes with his church that life begins at conception but "he's not going to push that on anyone."  He doesn't have any trouble with pushing Christian employers into providing abortions.  He doesn't have any trouble making churches buy insurance that covers abortion and abortifacient drugs.  He is just fine with pushing his real moral values on the entire country.

We are told not to judge another person's salvation, that is only between that person and God.  We are not ever told to have no discernment about another person's actions.  In fact, we are told to intervene with those that are sinning, and to remove them from the fellowship if they don't repent.  Many of our churches, Catholic and Protestant, need to do exactly that to politicians that force atheist values on the country.
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 08:37:08 PM »
I'm Catholic, but I have issues when it comes to ex-communication, kind of reluctant to decide who should or shouldn't be ex-communicated.
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Offline EagleKeeper

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 08:50:46 PM »
Quote
This is from Mrs. Smith

We are told not to judge another person's salvation, that is only between that person and God.  We are not ever told to have no discernment about another person's actions.  In fact, we are told to intervene with those that are sinning, and to remove them from the fellowship if they don't repent.  Many of our churches, Catholic and Protestant, need to do exactly that to politicians that force atheist values on the country.

Any thing other then this is moral relativism and degrades the word, and that is the trap.
 













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Offline franksolich

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 08:53:48 PM »
Quote from: ChuckJ on October 12, 2012, 06:19:04 PM

Therein might be the difference; your Church consists of local, pretty much independent, entities.

The Roman Catholic Church is highly centralized; this evolved because after the seat of the declining Roman Empire was moved east to Constantinople, there was no longer any organized formal civil structure left in most of Europe, and the church over the years filled the void, becoming a political and military and governing force as well as a religious force.

Someone had to fill the void.

Things such as excommunication have to, apparently, come from Rome; even lesser things such as annulments of marriages have to come from there too.

The local priest or the diocesean bishop has no judging authority, only enforcement (such as enforcement can be delivered) authority.

There's lots and lots of Catholics uncomfortable with this idea that flatulent politicians who brazenly flaunt rules of the church--Bela Pelosi being a good example--but can still call themselves Catholics and take communion.

But it goes back to what EagleKeeper said about "judge not, lest ye be judged;" God decides all, in the end.
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Offline EagleKeeper

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »
Quote from: Ballygrl on October 12, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
I'm Catholic, but I have issues when it comes to ex-communication, kind of reluctant to decide who should or shouldn't be ex-communicated.

Bally,

Just out of curiosity, Biden mentioned something that I took to be a tenant of Catholicism in regards to right to life. Could you or any other Catholic tell us what this tenant is called?
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Offline franksolich

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 09:00:30 PM »
Quote from: EagleKeeper on October 12, 2012, 06:51:03 PM
I believe that Biden revealed last night in the debate that he understood that the Catholic church reveals that life is formed at conception and then went on to explain that he would not "force" his and the Catholic churches understanding on others.

Again, I think that is flawed thinking, did God admonish us to not form an opinion and not follow the given word or to just not take life into our own hands?

Yes, it is flawed thinking; after all, God gave us the gift of judgement, so ostensibly we're supposed to use it.

There's something in either Judaic or Christian scripture which reminds us, ".....and the rivers ran red with blood because the people refused to exercise judgement....."--pertaining to not adequately punishing wrong-doers and those who are evil.

But we're human, we're flawed.

On one hand, we should exercise judgement, but then on the other hand since our judgement is flawed--only the Judgement of God is perfect--we're hesitant to.

All Christians have this unsure feeling, wanting to do something, but afraid to do it in case they're wrong.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 09:03:04 PM by franksolich »
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 09:13:37 PM »
Quote from: EagleKeeper on October 12, 2012, 08:58:41 PM
Bally,

Just out of curiosity, Biden mentioned something that I took to be a tenant of Catholicism in regards to right to life. Could you or any other Catholic tell us what this tenant is called?

I personally can't point to a particular tenet in particular that states it, our Church is structured so differently than other Religions, as frank stated, everything comes from Rome, and they have been known to make changes on things, but what we're taught in reference to the subject at hand is that the ending of any life is wrong, be it a fetus or euthanasia.
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 09:16:29 PM »
We have something called "Canon Law" that is put into effect by Church Leaders.
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Offline EagleKeeper

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2012, 09:26:03 PM »
Quote from: Ballygrl on October 12, 2012, 09:16:29 PM
We have something called "Canon Law" that is put into effect by Church Leaders.

Thanks Bally, I think that's relevent.

But I think ( and please understand that I am googeling) This phrase, "Catechism" of the Catholic Church seems to be what I was searching for.

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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 09:26:39 PM »
Quote from: franksolich on October 12, 2012, 08:53:48 PM

Therein might be the difference; your Church consists of local, pretty much independent, entities.

The Roman Catholic Church is highly centralized; this evolved because after the seat of the declining Roman Empire was moved east to Constantinople, there was no longer any organized formal civil structure left in most of Europe, and the church over the years filled the void, becoming a political and military and governing force as well as a religious force.

Someone had to fill the void.

Things such as excommunication have to, apparently, come from Rome; even lesser things such as annulments of marriages have to come from there too.

The local priest or the diocesean bishop has no judging authority, only enforcement (such as enforcement can be delivered) authority.

There's lots and lots of Catholics uncomfortable with this idea that flatulent politicians who brazenly flaunt rules of the church--Bela Pelosi being a good example--but can still call themselves Catholics and take communion.

But it goes back to what EagleKeeper said about "judge not, lest ye be judged;" God decides all, in the end.

Thanks for the input frank, but it's late and my mind is sleepy so let me see if I understand what you're saying.

If a local priest had a problem with parishioner participating in communion the priest would have to voice his concerns to Rome. Rome would make the decision and get that decision to the priest, and the priest would then enforce it. Is this correct? Or close to it?

Some of my fellow Protestants may disagree with me, but from what I've seen Catholic priests are probably better schooled in what Catholics are supposed to believe than Baptists pastors are in what Baptists are supposed to believe. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about knowing the Bible because I'm sure that probably averages out about the same. I'm talking about being schooled in the tenants of their particular faith.

With that in mind I would have thought that the priests would have some wiggle room to act unilaterally if someone did something that was blatantly and obviously contrary to the faith.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 09:44:59 PM »
Quote from: ChuckJ on October 12, 2012, 09:26:39 PM
If a local priest had a problem with parishioner participating in communion the priest would have to voice his concerns to Rome. Rome would make the decision and get that decision to the priest, and the priest would then enforce it. Is this correct? Or close to it?

Pretty much it, although it's more byzantinely bureaucratic than that.

The priest > the bishop > Rome.

Quote
With that in mind I would have thought that the priests would have some wiggle room to act unilaterally if someone did something that was blatantly and obviously contrary to the faith.

Since the priest's actions are ultimately judged from Rome, they do have some "wiggle room," but it's cautiously and rarely exercised, in case they might have misjudged.

The most recent examples have been those individual preachments and actions of priests in the Soviet Union, socialist Germany, Red China, socialist eastern Europe, and petty African despotic states, where dire extremity demands they speak out or act out on their own volition.

We fortunately haven't reached that point yet, official governmental hostility to either Catholicism or Christianity in general, but we're slipping that way.

One American cardinal who died recently--I forget who it was--said he'd die in bed, his successor would die in prison, and his successor's successor would die a martyr.
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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 10:00:17 PM »
Quote from: franksolich on October 12, 2012, 09:44:59 PM
Pretty much it, although it's more byzantinely bureaucratic than that.

The priest > the bishop > Rome.

Since the priest's actions are ultimately judged from Rome, they do have some "wiggle room," but it's cautiously and rarely exercised, in case they might have misjudged.

The most recent examples have been those individual preachments and actions of priests in the Soviet Union, socialist Germany, Red China, socialist eastern Europe, and petty African despotic states, where dire extremity demands they speak out or act out on their own volition.

We fortunately haven't reached that point yet, official governmental hostility to either Catholicism or Christianity in general, but we're slipping that way.

One American cardinal who died recently--I forget who it was--said he'd die in bed, his successor would die in prison, and his successor's successor would die a martyr.

If things keep going on the current path he could be correct.
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 10:04:48 PM »
Quote from: EagleKeeper on October 12, 2012, 09:26:03 PM
Thanks Bally, I think that's relevent.

But I think ( and please understand that I am googeling) This phrase, "Catechism" of the Catholic Church seems to be what I was searching for.

Catechism is what I was taught in Catholic School, and there's something called CCD which is taught on Sundays to Public School Students, it's basically Catholic Doctrine.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: A political question for our Catholic members
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 10:08:08 PM »
Quote from: Ballygrl on October 12, 2012, 10:04:48 PM
Catechism is what I was taught in Catholic School, and there's something called CCD which is taught on Sundays to Public School Students, it's basically Catholic Doctrine.

You're probably not old enough to remember the blue Baltimore Catechism (for younger children) and the dark green Baltimore Catechism (for older children); I think they'd been replaced by circa 1980.  Easy to read, easy to understand.  I dunno what's replaced them, but it surely can't be as good as this pair.
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