http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=250x3241This bonfire got started in February, but more kindling was added this week.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:08 PM
Original message
Ok my fellow DUer's question time on welfare/disability
My SO and I live with the SO's step parents, we rent the upstairs of their house and share kitchen area. The step mother just had a kidney transplant and Blue Cross cut her off the lower rates and her insurance rates are jumping up $271 a month.
The step mom then started applying for welfare, she was told that she is entitled to $400 food stamps plus medical help. She neglected to inform welfare that both the SO and I are renting from them, I am on SSDI + SSI and SO is on SSI and welfare for her son.
She also left out the fact that she has a 2005 mini van and a 2001 Ford SUV as well as the fact she has 2 life insurance policies each on her and her husband, as well as funeral plots and head stones. My question is if she hides this from welfare who already knows we are renting, will that be welfare fraud or attempt at fraud? Greed of some people is amazing as things wouldn't be so tough on them if they cut back on play time and thing buying.
Getting money for free of course is of much interest to the primitives, and so this bonfire's provoked the interest of a lot of inhabitants of Skins's island.
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. If she needs medical help she may not have any other choice. Would your rather she die? My mother had a heart transplant and the medicine is outrageous. There's no way to afford it. In many states you can't separate the medical assistance from the rest. You either ask for all of it, or they wonder whether you're really in need. I think you're being silly.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I understand that medically she needs some help, but shes more interested in the food stamps and thats what she really wants as with the amount we pay in rent more then makes up for the higher costs in her medical. Plus the food we buy also cuts her costs down on food.
Her major problem is her hubby gives away more then he keeps to a few grand kids and 1 son to the point that its hurting them, mind you that these are grown adults from age's 19 to 35 years.
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. ONE medication is over a thousand dollars a month
She needs at least 5 per month. Transplant health care is in the tens of thousands each year. I'll be even more to the point. You're not being silly, you're being an ass. You have no idea what you're talking about.
cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. yes, that would be fraud. And they will want all their money back.
Gogi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. My understanding is that you must give the welfare agency...
a complete and accurate listing of all your assets. I've seen our state (MO) Medicaid form and they want to know the value of your jewelry (excluding your wedding rings), your furniture, your vehicle(s)as well as the value of all your insurance policies, investments, bank accounts, and other income. Welfare is much the same.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I tried telling her that and she said thats none of welfares business.
I just get the feeling that somehow someway this is going to come back and effect my SO and I. But then I try to keep government out of my life as much as possible so I might be a bit paranoid on the matter.
The cheerless primitive could keep the government out of his life by not being on welfare.
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. As far as I can tell it will not affect you
You pay a certain amount every month to be there you pay for your food etc.right? Disability knows that amount right? She is not your rep payee is she? If not..
Than you have nothing to worry about as your case is a separate case from hers.
cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Feb-14-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I don't see how you would be complicit in this.
If she is not truthful, then she will face the possible consequences. How would it affect you?
Oh my. The story deepens:
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Thats true, I guess I'm just worried about drawing attention from government.
It goes back to a very long time past, remember a conflict called Viet Nam? Lets just say I was one of those long haired types that liked to sew up side down american flags to the back of jean jackets. Not to mention I also am a known associate of a certain michigan two wheel club by state and federal law enforcement agencies.
ikojo (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. What usuallly happens with those who have used Medicaid to help pay for health care (not sure if it's the same with Food Stamps) is that once the person dies, Medicaid will attempt to bill the estate for what they paid out in medical expenses.
As for the cars, in MO I don't think the cars can be worth more than a couple thousand dollars. I know for a fact that when assessing someone to see if they qualify for food stamps all income is taken into consideration, particularly if you share the same kitchen. If you and your SO had your own kitchen then I don't think they would consider your income.
I know that in 1993 I was laid off and I tried to get food stamps on a temporary basis. Even though I was single, had no kids, owned no car or property; the $16k a year I was making was deemed to be too much money to qualify me for food stamps. Granted since I was laid off I no longer made that "upper income" salary.
No_BS (2 posts) Mon Feb-18-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. You try to keep government...
out of your life? Unless, of course, you can scam some money from them. You're a true patriot, sir.
liberal4truth (309 posts) Thu Mar-06-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. LOL!!! Do back to them what they do to us all our lives. Screw em'!
When you are sick, you are sick.
There is no "in-between".
Period !
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. But..
Some things you list like your car,they can omit from counted assets too.I think it is because you are using it.Sometimes your home is omitted because you live in it. Things like that, that you need to survive they deduct..from being counted.
When you apply the caseworker makes that decision it seems.
It's just a very large bonfire, too much to copy-and-paste here.
tmfun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-14-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. **** em. The government has been cheating you all your life.
If the opportunity presents itself to cheat them, do it. Also, read "Regulating the poor" by Francis Fox Piven and Richard A. Cloward for a better understanding of how this works.
Additionally, be aware, when they tell you that contributions to these funds are "made by your employer" They are NOT! The only reason your employer has ANY money to contribute to unemployment, social security, disability, etc is by selling YOUR labor at a higher cost than you receive for the work. Your boss does not dig into his 401K to pay your benefits. YOU go out and earn the money that allows these contributions to occur.
Don't let them try to tell you that your boss pays them. They often try to use this tactic to
make you feel somehow unworthy of receiving the money you are entitled to. It's bullshit! If you don't go out and earn the money to pay into these funds, they don't get funded. Ever heard of a boss paying into unemployment for someone who was no longer employed at that entity? Of course not. IT IS YOUR MONEY! YOU EARNED IT AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO THE BENEFITS SHOULD YOU NEED THEM!
Take the money and run, and realize that the people in office are stealing much more than you can even conceive of.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-25-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thats pretty much what I thought, but I wanted to cover my ass.
Where Penn and Mich differ is only in a couple of area's. First since enacting the anti gay marriage laws a couple living together is no longer counted as a married couple so as long as both pay rent towards living arangements their incomes are seperate. As far as what we pay to the step parents, added to their monthly income puts them $800 above the food stamp cut off in Mich. As far as their vehicles, both are well above the $1,500 re-sell value for Mich food stamp program.
What I was worrying about is Step mom left out that we were paying her rent for the 2 bed rooms we rent. I think we are covered, step mom signed welfare papers saying SO was paying her rent.
Basicly we are 1 year and some odd month's away from moving up into the UP of Mich, when So's son turns 18 next year and we really don't want to move from here until then as renting another place in this city would pretty much trap us in the city.
When I worte the OP I was pretty upset because a freezer full of food came up empty and no one knows where the food went, we think step parents gave the food to the free loaders in the family, SO and I bought that food. I have since put a chain and a lock on said freezer and we have the keys.
Also at the time we were told that the spare bed room was going to be "rented" to SO's half brotherand his 18 yo girl friend, who the last time lived here only paid $25 a month then moved out after running up all of the bills in the house sky high because steps were demanding help from them on what they ran up. Don't ask, one of those blood vs water things.
Btw, for the person that called me a mean asshole, I didn't mention that SO and I had the step parents back in the black after their grand kid stole their credit card and maxed it out 3 years ago while step mom was in the hospital, step dad isn't mentally able to handle much due to a head injury. We helped them pay off that CC bill plus a few other bills that was causing most of their money problems in June of 2007, then they let the free loading son in with his 18 yo girl friend and he ran their bills back up.
I'm not being mean, I just get tired of bailing them out of money problems just to have them turn around and screw everything up because they feel sorry for someone else.
Why do I feel like I'm living in as the World turns or Peyton place?
Oh my. Theft by freezer thieves.
The cheerless primitive considerately updates us:
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-05-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. Update time
SO's step mom was denied both food stamps and medicaid, welfare had a few reasons why, first because SO and I are paying rent on the 2 rooms in their house, it put their income way above the limits. To many assets, the vehicles and life insurance are valued higher then the limits. Step dad has a paper route that pays him $200 every 2 weeks that Step mom forgot to tell them about.
Then I found out that because Blue Cross was dropping her from the dialysis coverage, step mom assumed that her Blue Cross payments were going up, but she doesn't know because Blue Cross hasn't got her new payment plan figured out. From what I found out, theres a very good chance that Blue Cross will charge less, it has been the dialysis that drove the Blue Cross up.
The most-recent comment, full of all sorts of good information:
JL810 (6 posts) Sun May-25-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. it is administrative fraud.
For Food Stamps she can have one car (exempt, the one with the highest value) the other car however is an "asset." For Food Stamps (federal program) I think she can only have 2000-2500.00 in assets TOTAL.
(But you should have her check the asset/income limitations on line somewhere for FS, to see for sure, run a search "Food Stamps, Asset and Income" you should get the amounts you need, also check "exemptions" to make sure her second car can't be an exemption some how?).
If she is "over assets" (has over 2500 in assets) that means she is receiving benefits that she is not entitled to receive period and she is receiving them by deliberately withholding information (that they asked her to provide) that is administrative FRAUD.
Criminal Fraud has a higher standard of proof. State Welfare Agencies send their administrative fraud cases to prosecutors to screen for criminal prosecution. Food stamps is a federal program (unlike some of the state welfare programs which are 'state programs) --so she could have a federal fraud charge or the state could prosecute, either one I think could take it (because while FS is a federal program, it is administered by the state so the state has a interest as well).
The rent she receives from you and your SO -is INCOME to her and by failing to report it she is not reporting all of her income. If the income she receives from you makes her ineligible for food stamps (puts her "over income") that is Fraud too. Again, she is receiving benefits to which she is not entitled and she is receiving them because she deliberately "knowingly" failed to disclose information they requested. Even if the income didn't make her ineligible (didn't put her over income) it could have the effect of reducing the amount of food stamps that she is eligible for --thus she could be receiving more benefits than she is entitled to receive and she is receiving them by deliberately withholding information (fraud).
Life insurance policies can also be "assets" if they have "cash value." Some policies cannot be cashed in--their value as an "asset" is the cash they would receive if they cashed them in right now.
The funeral plots should be exempt - not an asset.
All of these 'assets' she may not have reported are added to any she actually did report (i.e., money in checking/savings, CD's,) it doesn't take much to get to the FS asset limit.
I understand times are tough but this is not the way to get help. It can bring more trouble than she needs--some of these state welfare workers and agencies are bulldogs, they don't' cut anyone any slack for any reason.
If it turns out that the assets she has reported, combined with the assets she has not reported is more than 2500 (double check the asset limitation) I would try to convince her to tell them she doesn't want benefits anymore and hope they go away and don't look at her case any further. If they try to get back the benefits she has already received (charge her with an "overpayment") there will more than likely be a fraud charge attached to the overpayment. If the welfare agency charges her with fraud, then the potential exists for criminal fraud charges (however, it is more difficult to prove criminal fraud then administrative fraud so just because one is proven doesn't mean the other necessarily will be).
If she stops taking benefits right now they may go away. If she is charged with a fraud overpayment -she may be able to negotiate w/them to drop the fraud in exchange for payment in full of the overpayment amount. It is serious -no joke--they can make her life miserable. It seems like she has enough going on right now with her health, etc. There are other sources of help, food banks? I don't how old she is but she may be eligible for meals on wheels or for other types of food assistance for older people (with higher income/asset allowances than welfare allows).
Sometimes "negotiating" with welfare can be done directly with a worker assigned the case sometimes it requires filing an appeal first..it depends. Also, check your state welfare web-site, and double check the numbers given the specific information about her household.
Oh, If you prepare and share food with your stepmother than you should be included in the Food Stamp Household. I suspect your not included in the Food Stamp Household from what you have said, but if you are included, you are at risk too, all "Food Stamp Household" members are liable.
