http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021295432Oh my.
It's a very large campfire, so only a few primitive comments, selected at random:
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:02 PM
Is continual exposure to hateful propaganda child abuse?
It's time for such a conversation in this country. A home where hate radio and/or Fox is constantly hammering children with racism, calls for violence, bitterness and divisiveness. Is that child abuse?
What say you?
And isn't it possible to call it child abuse without getting into free speech issues?
As citizens, we don't have to wish to take away any free speech rights. We just want to illuminate the damage it is (apparently) doing to young minds and hearts.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:21 PM
5. it's time to call it out
Bill Clinton used the word "hate" in his speech.
I wonder how many opinion makers know what's going on in the recesses of hate radio and the Internet.
Would they be aghast at knowing the kind of language -- the slurs, the calls for violence, the Goebbel-ish and sly twisting of minds -- that is poisoning America?
How many people in positions of influence know, for example, that a swath of functioning adults believe with all their hearts today that food stamps are going to be cancelled after the election and a wave of "hip hop" city folk are coming to the suburbs for "mass rape" and lootings and unspeakable violence?
How can it be that in the INFORMATION age, there is such widespread ignorance?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:22 PM
8. are you exposing children to calls for violence?
to race-hatred?
If one's exposing children to primitives, yeah, probably.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:47 PM
105. as the descendant of a dozen Revolutionary War soldiers and also of...
...a signer of the Declaration of Independence, I'm not going to argue that there is no place for rebellion against tyranny and despotism. But that's different from blind hate -- hate that is deliberately fomented through lies and ignorance.
Don't you think?
^^franksolich is a descendant of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, third son of Edward III.
As are probably a couple million other people.
Whoop-whoop-whoop-de-do.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:24 PM
10. who said anything about the GOVERNMENT? or any RESTRICTIONS?
How about a campaign of enlightenment? A campaign by enlightened people?
^^rarely heard the purpose of the DUmpster to be so eloquently explained; thank you, grasswire!
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:30 PM
16. don't be ridiculous
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:48 PM
106. who said anything about giving the government any such power??
Read the thread, please.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:35 PM
19. Well, I am not advocating government intervention.
I am advocating a campaign of enlightenment. A campaign that we all can participate in. A citizens' campaign.
We ignore the mass propagandizing at our peril. To wit: the 16-year-old girl who called for the assassination of Obama on Twitter last night.
It is time for a discussion in this country about hate and ignorance.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:09 PM
53. thank you for your thoughtful response.
cali (73,994 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:51 PM
35. what does that even mean? what would constitute such a campaign?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:11 PM
56. there are models for campaigns of enlightenment
Every great cause has a campaign.
Public opinion can be swayed. The first task is conversation.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:30 PM
15. who said anything about removing children???
Don't go to the extreme here. Gee.
I wonder why people's minds go to a totalitarian spectre.
I am not advocating any government involvement in lives.
I am merely asking if a propagandized child -- propagandized with hate and violence and ignorance -- has been victimized.
And if so, shouldn't the *village* be interested in illuminating this treatment of children?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:38 PM
22. I hoped to start a conversation.
How do we address the fact that many many millions of children are being called to violence, to race hatred, to bitterness not seen here since the Civil War?
Isn't it our job as CITIZENS to talk about this??
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:16 PM
61. this is how we counter it
1. We call it what it is. Name it. (We haven't done that here, yet. My first post asked what it is.)
2. We illuminate it through conversation. We talk about the problem.
3. We develop a public awareness.
The movement goes where it will.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:37 PM
66. it would be great to list some of those organizations here for us
Good idea. I personally don't know of any organizations that are talking about the effect of hate propaganda on America's children.
The first time I have heard the word "hate" assigned to the right by a prominent national figure was when Bill Clinton mentioned it the other night in his speech. Ed remarked on the use of the word.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:51 PM
80. I'm sorry -- are these sites activists for or against the issues?
Three out of the four are about propaganda in former totalitarian states.
Thank you for the insight, though. I didn't know there was a global effort to intimidate the speech of GLBT where their children are concerned.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:03 PM
84. sincerely, I thank you for raising my consciousness...
..on the matter of conservatives characterizing the speech of GLBT parents as indoctrination.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:21 PM
87. no, no, no
I am not suggesting that we engage in propaganda.
I am merely suggesting that we talk about hate and its effects on America's children.
I don't think it is *fire* to seek understanding and to speak truth.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:27 PM
99. I'll be very frank here.
Bill Clinton shamed me the other night. Despite all that he suffered at the hands of conservatives, he took the high road. He eschewed hate. He engaged in no revenge. He chose to do good in the world, and to cross over to model tolerance and respect.
I have not been as good as Bill. I am still angry about Bush, and I will always be angry about that. I still burn when conservatives attack the truth, or promote hatred and bigotry. There is still a universal truth in the world, and they do not respect it or their fellow humans.
And that is what made me think about the effects of continuing barrage of hate on children. I have never advocated violence or espoused government intervention in anyone's liberties. And I have never exposed a child to that kind of discussion. And I won't.
But I want us all to talk about hate in America. Isn't it time for us to stand against it? Isn't it time to stand for a luminous and clear way of getting along? Isn't it time for *that* path to be the goal? We can't get there without discussion.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:36 PM
21. a discussion of hatred and ignorance is hardly anti-American
NO discussion that seeks enlightenment is anti-American.
Absurd.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:47 PM
30. is it child abuse?
what do you think?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:42 PM
24. ....and I don't see any progressives calling for violence or hatred.
Progressives call for tolerance and community. Are you saying that Republicans would say it is child abuse to encourage tolerance and community?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:49 PM
32. having two mommies is legal
assassinating the president is not
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:46 PM
27. I'm suggesting that we talk about it.
I'm suggesting that we bring it to the national conversation. Maybe there is a less-loaded term than "child abuse". But if that term makes citizens think about it and talk about it, then that's at least a start in generating awareness.
There is no, none, nada possibility that right-wingers could accuse liberals/progressives of abusing children's minds. It would be pretty silly to accuse parents of polluting minds by urging them to be mindful of the earth, to be responsible for the elderly and the ill, to feed hungry children.
^^said by the primitive hoping to open up a pie-and-jam shoppe, where she planned to give away free pie to the rich, and charge the poor.
cali (73,994 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:53 PM
39. then take the phrase "child abuse" out of the equation
I'd suggest you rewrite your op.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:57 PM
44. no, I won't do that.
Look.
We are talking about this.
Sometimes it takes a provocative statement to begin a conversation.
cali (73,994 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:59 PM
46. Agree that it sometimes takes a provocative opening but then you have to be prepared for people responding in a way that may not be conducive to thoughtful conversation. I think this thread is an example of that.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:59 PM
83. I don't see anyone responding in a negative way.
I see a discussion.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:59 PM
47. we can do two things at the same time
Society can advocate against cruel treatment of children. There are laws, there are systems, there are protections.
At the same time, we citizens can talk about the effects of racialism, of calls for violence, of hatred on our children.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:54 PM
42. okay, thank you
Calling it child abuse does get the attention of citizens, though, as demonstrated on this thread.
You have understood the concept. A citizen campaign of enlightenment.
If many grounded and centered Americans knew the kind of hateful cesspool that is aimed at America's children daily, they would be astonished. Those of us who monitor the right know about it. We see some of it brought here for us to review.
It's wrong. It's an old human trait, to embitter ignorant people against their fellow citizens. But it's wrong.
Why can't we stop it? Why can't we be enlightened? We couldn't a movement use social media to provide information and point out ignorance?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:40 PM
67. yes, I agree
It does take time. Look how far we have come.
But I don't hear anyone talking about this particular problem. The propagandizing of a generation that is being raised on FOX and hate radio.
Previous generations did not face this kind of propaganda. It's new. And I fear we will reap the harvest just about the time that demographics put the right wing in an undeniable minority. In other words, just when the right is losing influence, they are teaching violence ever more strongly.
cali (73,994 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 05:14 PM
96. uh. The SPLC has been talking about it and doing something about it for years- close to two decades.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:35 PM
109. I wonder what the distribution of Teaching Tolerance is.
Yes, you are right about the SPLC. But somehow there is not a national conversation about the effects of the propaganda on children. Perhaps SPLC would be the entity with the creds to take on such an endeavor.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:05 PM
50. WE decide.
It is the same as a group of people deciding that seal pups should not be clobbered to death.
It is the same as a group of people deciding to seek protections for victims of discrimination.
We seek to inform the people. We seek to counter ignorance with enlightenment. We seek to educate.
If we are only seeking to affect the national conversation, then there is no governmental involvement. No penalties, no laws, nothing like that.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:30 PM
63. there were plenty of people who didn't think slavery was bad, too
But that didn't stop a movement of people who realized that it was a universal truth that every citizen should be free to determine his/her own destiny. The movement mounted an education campaign. It was all about standing up and changing peoples hearts and minds.
It didn't stop a movement of people who realized that women should be allowed to vote, that equality was a universal truth to seek. The movement mounted an education campaign. It worked.
Some things are universally true and transcend divides.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:34 PM
65. I do not know why "advocacy" is confused with "intervention".
Your car scenario is a straw man.
No one has advocated intervention in the lives of those who propagandize their children with hatred.
What is suggested is a national conversation. A raising of awareness.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:07 PM
51. it is not child abuse to teach tolerance and community
Do you see anyone on MSNBC calling for race hatred? Do you see anyone there calling for assassinations? Do you?
No.
And your last sentence is just wrong.
Whoa.
Never mind.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:22 PM
62. There IS a human, universal truth.
We as residents of this planet will survive and prosper through tolerance and cooperation.
Any ideology that promotes hatred, violence is in opposition to this universal truth.
This truth transcends politics, nationalism, or any notion of dual but equal differences.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:02 PM
74. no need to be snarky
It's not my truth. It is history's truth. And the truth of science, write large by climate change.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:46 PM
79. I don't agree that it has to start with the parents
A campaign of general awareness can shape public opinion and eventually influence behavior.
Civil rights campaign changed American opinion, and each successive generation is more tolerant.
Women's suffrage changed American opinion, and is now the way of the land, despite what the shrinking right believes.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:40 PM
78. did you read the thread?
What would those consequences be?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:57 PM
82. if you read the thread, you would find my answers to your objections.
But here they are again:
1. Don't confuse the desire for enlightenment with a desire for intervention.
2. I do not advocate any governmental involvement whatsoever.
3. A campaign of enlightment and advocacy is the standard method of making grassroots social change. To wit: civil rights, women's suffrage, preserving the planet, equal pay for equal work, abolition of slavery, yada yada yada.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:26 PM
88. as I have stated in this thread...
It may be true that the term "child abuse' is provocative. But it started a conversation, didn't it? I have acknowledged in the thread the sentiments of those who immediately go to "intervention."
My goal is not to "get rid of hate radio." My goal is for us to talk about its effects on children. Enlightenment brings its own change. Public sentiment, once swayed, leads to changes in behavior.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:33 PM
101. I asked the question.
Any movement will be what it will be. A dialogue can't be opened and a problem solved at the same time. A person can't ask a question and concomitantly manage the reactions.
What would you suggest in place of the term "child abuse"?
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:34 PM
102. read the thread, please
No one has suggested any government intervention.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:35 PM
103. "and instilling a sense of national identity"?
I don't understand that at all. Please amplify.
grasswire (34,912 posts) Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:50 PM
107. where did that 16-year-old girl learn to suggest assassination of Obama?
^^oh, I dunno.
Probably from primitives on Skins's island advocating the assassination of Bush, Cheney, &c., &c., &c.
Whew.
I never thought I'd get down to the bottom of this campfire; it's a big one, which is why I copied-and-pasted only a few randomly-selected primitive comments.
I think Judy's got to give up trying to post on political issues, and stick with cooking and baking instead.
