Understanding "independents" and "moderates"

[arachnyd]

I've been working hard to understand the liberal/progressive mindset, and I find the liberal/progressive mindset is based on completely different principles than the conservative mindset. (Now I'm talking about intelligent liberals, which are the rare-ones. I dont think most liberals have a mindset, but those who are semi-intelligent (even if they are wrong) at least have a basis for the liberal/progressive theory.)

I disagree with them, but I kind of understand them- but what I'm starting to have a more difficult time understanding is "independents" and "Moderates". When I say independents, I dont just mean someone who isnt a republican or democrat. Heck, I consider myself technically an independent as I'm too conservative for the Right of Middle GOP, But I mean those who are real moderates. Who don't know who they are going to vote for each election and swing the elections. What the heck do THEY believe in... nothing?

I first thought it could be someone who is say, fiscally conservative but socially liberal, but all those people identify themselves as a fiscally conservative liberal or a libertarian. So what makes up these masses that ultimately sway elections? What do they believe in and how do they base their beliefs? How do they determine who or what they are going to vote for?

I'm just guessing they are mostly lazy people who just don't take the time to think about what they believe in, so they simply vote on this issue vs. that issue, but I haven't been able to find any resources that actually support it, but I'd love to learn more about how they think and behave.

Anyone have any resources or ideas in how to understand them, or any thoughts or ideas??

[formerlurker]

Give me a break already on the lazy people.   I don't give a flying fig about social issues - they aren't on my radar.    I am a Republican because of taxes, spending, foreign policy and strong national defense -- most of which is not in line with the loony tune libertarians.   

Just worry about what you think, and what is important to you. 

[Big Dog]

I've been working hard to understand the liberal/progressive mindset, and I find the liberal/progressive mindset is based on completely different principles than the conservative mindset. (Now I'm talking about intelligent liberals, which are the rare-ones. I dont think most liberals have a mindset, but those who are semi-intelligent (even if they are wrong) at least have a basis for the liberal/progressive theory.)

I disagree with them, but I kind of understand them- but what I'm starting to have a more difficult time understanding is "independents" and "Moderates". When I say independents, I dont just mean someone who isnt a republican or democrat. Heck, I consider myself technically an independent as I'm too conservative for the Right of Middle GOP, But I mean those who are real moderates. Who don't know who they are going to vote for each election and swing the elections. What the heck do THEY believe in... nothing?

I first thought it could be someone who is say, fiscally conservative but socially liberal, but all those people identify themselves as a fiscally conservative liberal or a libertarian. So what makes up these masses that ultimately sway elections? What do they believe in and how do they base their beliefs? How do they determine who or what they are going to vote for?

I'm just guessing they are mostly lazy people who just don't take the time to think about what they believe in, so they simply vote on this issue vs. that issue, but I haven't been able to find any resources that actually support it, but I'd love to learn more about how they think and behave.

Anyone have any resources or ideas in how to understand them, or any thoughts or ideas??

Independents: People with their own opinions of political issues, who believe no party represents them enough to affiliate. May be anywhere on the political landscape. More likely to support candidate based on number of positions with which they agree. More common in liberal Democrat states.

Moderates: People who perceive themselves to be between Left and Right on the political spectrum, more likely to vote Democrat without declaring Democrat party affiliation. Common in conservative Republican states.

[J P Sousa]

How do they determine who or what they are going to vote for?

Call me cynical but after knocking on doors for years and years, they are the people who determine which candidate has the best slogan/commercial/B-S pitch.


Kinda like the twelve people (jury) who determine who has the best lawyer.

.

[rich_t]

Call me cynical but after knocking on doors for years and years, they are the people who determine which candidate has the best slogan/commercial/B-S pitch.


Kinda like the twelve people (jury) who determine who has the best lawyer.

.

I've been on a couple of juries.

It's fortunate for the defendant on my last sitting that I paid attention to the actual evidence.  His lawyer sucked.

[arachnyd]

Give me a break already on the lazy people.   I don't give a flying fig about social issues - they aren't on my radar.    I am a Republican because of taxes, spending, foreign policy and strong national defense -- most of which is not in line with the loony tune libertarians.   

Just worry about what you think, and what is important to you. 

I dont care about the social issues either to the disappointment of many "conservatives" but it sounds like if I asked you "why" a few times it sounds like it would boil down to some basis. Your not an independent/moderate because you believe in something.

What I think doesn't really matter. Thats the problem. The elections are won by swaying this group of people "in the middle" to one side or the other. Therefore to win an election, you have to sway the people in the middle. While this is typically done on surface issues, I was just wondering what is the basis of most of these "independent moderates" ? They control the country, yet I never hear anyone discussion who they are, what they believe, what their basis is.

I think that IS important.

[formerlurker]

If elections were decided by party affiliation then you wouldn't need to have them - just count up the registered democrats, republicans etc and the party with the most wins.

Party affiliation plays into donations and some primaries.  That's it.

The candidate who wins is the candidate who speaks to the problems everyday civilized tax paying voters have.

To me it's the economy - gas, groceries, utilities, taxes, our municipalities are bleeding out from decades of pension and benefits abuse due to union stranglehold.... this is the stuff we care about. 

Paul Ryan lied about his marathon time 20 years ago??? Are you freaking kidding me right now?  Good luck with that Obama, and keep telling us how our taxes are going to make it all better while I pay $50 for 13 gallons of gas. 

That's the ticket.

[arachnyd]

Independents: People with their own opinions of political issues, who believe no party represents them enough to affiliate. May be anywhere on the political landscape. More likely to support candidate based on number of positions with which they agree. More common in liberal Democrat states.

Moderates: People who perceive themselves to be between Left and Right on the political spectrum, more likely to vote Democrat without declaring Democrat party affiliation. Common in conservative Republican states.

What is "in between" the left and the right may be a better way of framing your question? If there aren't any bases for their beliefs, they either support a believe without officially labeling themselves, or just vote in the wind dependent on some surface issues which they think effects their daily lives, but isn't based on any core belief sets? (or once again, doesn't this mean they are too lazy to determine what they believe?) or is it status-quo preservation? (the absence of progressivism is conservatism, right? however most conservatives could arguably be towards reducing past progressivism, which would suggest moderates would be those preserving the status quo as is (moderate-conservative, or progressivism in a limited capacity (which would be a moderate-liberal)? What is in between that wouldn't follow either conservatism or progressivism as a principle?

you can call yourself a moderate, or an independent all you want. I dont care WHAT someone calls themselves (I mean I call myself an independent although I am ultra-conservative), my question is what is a moderate. What IS being between the left and the right on the political spectrum? What could someone's basis possibly be if its not progressivism or the absence thereof?

[Big Dog]

I dont care about the social issues either to the disappointment of many "conservatives" but it sounds like if I asked you "why" a few times it sounds like it would boil down to some basis. Your not an independent/moderate because you believe in something.

What I think doesn't really matter. Thats the problem. The elections are won by swaying this group of people "in the middle" to one side or the other. Therefore to win an election, you have to sway the people in the middle. While this is typically done on surface issues, I was just wondering what is the basis of most of these "independent moderates" ? They control the country, yet I never hear anyone discussion who they are, what they believe, what their basis is.

I think that IS important.

You are combining Independents (a political affiliation, or deliberate non-affiliation) with moderates (a political position). That is a mistaken notion.

Also, you have failed to consider "unaffiliated", "undecided", or "apathetic" as targets of campaigning.

Re-examine your premise.

[Big Dog]

What is "in between" the left and the right may be a better way of framing your question? If there aren't any bases for their beliefs, they either support a believe without officially labeling themselves, or just vote in the wind dependent on some surface issues which they think effects their daily lives, but isn't based on any core belief sets? (or once again, doesn't this mean they are too lazy to determine what they believe?) or is it status-quo preservation? (the absence of progressivism is conservatism, right? however most conservatives could arguably be towards reducing past progressivism, which would suggest moderates would be those preserving the status quo as is (moderate-conservative, or progressivism in a limited capacity (which would be a moderate-liberal)? What is in between that wouldn't follow either conservatism or progressivism as a principle?

you can call yourself a moderate, or an independent all you want. I dont care WHAT someone calls themselves (I mean I call myself an independent although I am ultra-conservative), my question is what is a moderate. What IS being between the left and the right on the political spectrum? What could someone's basis possibly be if its not progressivism or the absence thereof?

Are you trying to reframe a question I didn't ask, or are you asking your own question?

[arachnyd]

If elections were decided by party affiliation then you wouldn't need to have them - just count up the registered democrats, republicans etc and the party with the most wins.

Party affiliation plays into donations and some primaries.  That's it.

The candidate who wins is the candidate who speaks to the problems everyday civilized tax paying voters have.

To me it's the economy - gas, groceries, utilities, taxes, our municipalities are bleeding out from decades of pension and benefits abuse due to union stranglehold.... this is the stuff we care about. 

Paul Ryan lied about his marathon time 20 years ago??? Are you freaking kidding me right now?  Good luck with that Obama, and keep telling us how our taxes are going to make it all better while I pay $50 for 13 gallons of gas. 

That's the ticket.

I agree with the party affiliation. I am not a republican, but I am a conservative.

Tell me if I'm right in interpreting what your saying, but in other words these moderates have no foundational basis for their beliefs, they just vote on whatever surface issues they feel are important at the moment?

That's what I was assuming going into this, I'm just trying to make sure that understanding was correct, as I can't figure out what would be moderate between progressivism and conservatism. I CAN see moderate between Republican and Democrat because those are just two parties working to get votes, not two thought bases.

[formerlurker]

What is "in between" the left and the right may be a better way of framing your question? If there aren't any bases for their beliefs, they either support a believe without officially labeling themselves, or just vote in the wind dependent on some surface issues which they think effects their daily lives, but isn't based on any core belief sets? (or once again, doesn't this mean they are too lazy to determine what they believe?) or is it status-quo preservation? (the absence of progressivism is conservatism, right? however most conservatives could arguably be towards reducing past progressivism, which would suggest moderates would be those preserving the status quo as is (moderate-conservative, or progressivism in a limited capacity (which would be a moderate-liberal)? What is in between that wouldn't follow either conservatism or progressivism as a principle?

you can call yourself a moderate, or an independent all you want. I dont care WHAT someone calls themselves (I mean I call myself an independent although I am ultra-conservative), my question is what is a moderate. What IS being between the left and the right on the political spectrum? What could someone's basis possibly be if its not progressivism or the absence thereof?

Politics is not religion.  This isn't an all or nothing stance.  Lord help us if that were true.

[arachnyd]

You are combining Independents (a political affiliation, or deliberate non-affiliation) with moderates (a political position). That is a mistaken notion.

Also, you have failed to consider "unaffiliated", "undecided", or "apathetic" as targets of campaigning.

Re-examine your premise.

I said in the original post " When I say independents, I dont just mean someone who isnt a republican or democrat. " I didn't mean a "registered independent" or someone who doesn't affiliate with the parties. I stated the above quote with my intent to say I didn't mean this group of people, but maybe I used the wrong word. I meant more of the "people in play". What is their basis for beliefs?

Apathetic- Their beliefs make sense. Not who I'm trying to refer to.

unaffiliated- I wasn't inquiring about republican/democrat affiliations, so I don't mean to refer to this group either.

the Undecided- maybe that is a better term. From a philosophy standpoint, are they all "progressives" just maybe not to the extent of the democrat-progressives? or is there something I'm missing in between.

Are you trying to reframe a question I didn't ask, or are you asking your own question?

Sorry, I meant my own question. That is my question, not trying to put words in your mouth. This is the question I'm trying to ask, is if you are not a progressive or a conservative, what are you essentially. I apologize if I confused you.

[formerlurker]

I agree with the party affiliation. I am not a republican, but I am a conservative.

Tell me if I'm right in interpreting what your saying, but in other words these moderates have no foundational basis for their beliefs, they just vote on whatever surface issues they feel are important at the moment?

That's what I was assuming going into this, I'm just trying to make sure that understanding was correct, as I can't figure out what would be moderate between progressivism and conservatism. I CAN see moderate between Republican and Democrat because those are just two parties working to get votes, not two thought bases.

Of course there is a foundation - I work hard for all I have, pay my taxes, am a contributing member to my community, and care very deeply about issues that affect my family, my local community, and my country.  If that isn't a core, solid foundation I don't know what is.

[arachnyd]

Of course there is a foundation - I work hard for all I have, pay my taxes, am a contributing member to my community, and care very deeply about issues that affect my family, my local community, and my country.  If that isn't a core, solid foundation I don't know what is.

Those appear to all be conservative cores.. however without understanding the "why" behind the issues and community components,  maybe you have some socially progressive ideation? I dont know without more details, but those are both rooted in either conservatism or progressivism, and is based on a core foundation. This means you are either fiscally conservative and socially progressive, or conservative on both fronts, which makes sense if that is your beliefs.

Are you trying to say that "moderates" have the same beliefs as you (or similar)? If so that's answering my question and I appreciate it? are you the type of person that might vote for obama? If so that does help me understand a little bit and I'd like to ask you a few more questions.

[formerlurker]

Those appear to all be conservative cores.. however without understanding the "why" behind the issues and community components,  maybe you have some socially progressive ideation? I dont know without more details, but those are both rooted in either conservatism or progressivism, and is based on a core foundation. This means your not a "true moderate" you are either fiscally conservative and socially progressive, or conservative on both fronts.

Are you trying to say that "moderates" have the same beliefs as you (or similar)? If so thats answering my question and I appreciate it.

 

Being a very active member of my community (i.e. town) is most certainly NOT a progressive quality.

What fun this is.

[formerlurker]

I think the issue here is that you have preconceived notions that belief systems fit squarely into prefabricated boxes.

I am a Republican who doesn't care if a candidate supports gay unions or even abortion because that isn't in my top ten concern list.   That makes me a RINO to purest conservatives - and while they have a right to their beliefs, it won't get my vote for their candidate.

Folks care about stuff the affects them personally.  Trying to paint that as shallow or surface shopping is nonsense. 

[Big Dog]

I said in the original post " When I say independents, I dont just mean someone who isnt a republican or democrat. " I didn't mean a "registered independent" or someone who doesn't affiliate with the parties. I stated the above quote with my intent to say I didn't mean this group of people, but maybe I used the wrong word. I meant more of the "people in play". What is their basis for beliefs?

Apathetic- Their beliefs make sense. Not who I'm trying to refer to.

unaffiliated- I wasn't inquiring about republican/democrat affiliations, so I don't mean to refer to this group either.

the Undecided- maybe that is a better term. From a philosophy standpoint, are they all "progressives" just maybe not to the extent of the democrat-progressives? or is there something I'm missing in between.

Sorry, I meant my own question. That is my question, not trying to put words in your mouth. This is the question I'm trying to ask, is if you are not a progressive or a conservative, what are you essentially. I apologize if I confused you.

You have postulated a false dichotomy: politics are more complex than left vs. right, Democrat vs. Republican. Some Democrats are more conservative than some Republicans on certain issues.

You also continue to make errors in labeling: Progressivism is a middle-left American political ideology, but not the only one on the left side. Conservatism is not the only right-of-center ideology.

Check your premises.

[Kyle Ricky]

I am an Independent / Social Moderate. Till recently I thought I was an Independent / Social Conservative; but looking at my 'Compromising' stances on abortion (Only acceptable if it is a case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother is in danger) and gays (I don't agree with gay marriage, but I am o.k with civil unions), I found that I am actually a Social Moderate.

I am an independent because there are things on both sides I like, and there are things on both sides I do not like. I like to try and reach a compromising ground where both sides can be happy. I know that is impossible in this day and age, but there is always hope, right?

I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats through out my life time.

Recently, my votes have been going to the ones that are close with me on the social issues, domestic issues, religious issues, and foreign issues. I haven't found one that is a complete match, yet.

[obumazombie]

I have quite a bit of respect for someone who will take a stand. Moderates, and Independents are fence sitters, indecisive, unable to commit, unwilling to research issues and candidates.
It reminds me of a joke...
What is worse, ignorance or apathy ?
I don't know, and I don't care.

[Big Dog]

I am an Independent / Social Moderate. Till recently I thought I was an Independent / Social Conservative; but looking at my 'Compromising' stances on abortion (Only acceptable if it is a case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother is in danger) and gays (I don't agree with gay marriage, but I am o.k with civil unions), I found that I am actually a Social Moderate.

I am an independent because there are things on both sides I like, and there are things on both sides I do not like. I like to try and reach a compromising ground where both sides can be happy. I know that is impossible in this day and age, but there is always hope, right?

I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats through out my life time.

Recently, my votes have been going to the ones that are close with me on the social issues, domestic issues, religious issues, and foreign issues. I haven't found one that is a complete match, yet.

Me, I am a strict Constitutionalist with regard to the size and strength of the Federal government (if it ain't in the Constitution, the Federal government should not do it), a Flat Tax supporter (One man, one vote, one tax),  a balanced budget supporter (don't borrow money you can't pay back, America!), a laissez-faire capitalist, and a Don't-Care-atarian on social issues.

[Kyle Ricky]

Me, I am a strict Constitutionalist with regard to the size and strength of the Federal government (if it ain't in the Constitution, the Federal government should not do it), a Flat Tax supporter (One man, one vote, one tax),  a balanced budget supporter (don't borrow money you can't pay back, America!), a laissez-faire capitalist, and a Don't-Care-atarian on social issues.

I too am a vast constitutionalists in regard to the same thing. We have rights, and no one should try to take them away. I also agree with the flat tax, and a balanced budget - this borrowing 40 cents for every dollar is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to borrow any money. But when you have a President who feels that the government should take care of everyone, that will happen.

I am a huge Capitalist - No one should ever try to take that away. As it is said: 'Socialism always works until you run out of other people's money.'

I have quite a bit of respect for someone who will take a stand. Moderates, and Independents are fence sitters, indecisive, unable to commit, unwilling to research issues and candidates.
It reminds me of a joke...
What is worse, ignorance or apathy ?
I don't know, and I don't care.

With being an independent you have to actually pay more attention to the issues. So you know what you like, and what not to like. In my case, I have to look at everything and figure out what can we do make it work?

[obumazombie]

Present company excepted.

[formerlurker]

I have quite a bit of respect for someone who will take a stand. Moderates, and Independents are fence sitters, indecisive, unable to commit, unwilling to research issues and candidates.
It reminds me of a joke...
What is worse, ignorance or apathy ?
I don't know, and I don't care.

Fence sitters?   I do far more research on the candidates I support than probably 3/4 of the purest of pure conservatives.   

[insert snob/elitist smiley here]

[arachnyd]

Being a very active member of my community (i.e. town) is most certainly NOT a progressive quality.

What fun this is.

ok, so then what makes you a moderate? If your saying your conservative on most if all fronts, then what makes you a moderate, that is my question. What ideas, thoughts, opinions, etc.?