Manufacturing boom: Trade school enrollment soars

[BlueStateSaint]

This is a decent sign.

Manufacturing boom: Trade school enrollment soars

By Parija Kavilanz @CNNMoney July 31, 2012: 5:03 AM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Trade schools nationwide are bursting at the seams as demand for skilled factory workers pushes enrollment to record highs.

American manufacturers in certain sectors are enjoying a rebirth fueled by the return of overseas production back to the United States. As factories crank up, they have an urgent need for high-skilled workers such as machinists and tool-and-die makers knowledgeable in computers.

Trade school officials say manufacturing programs are experiencing an influx of students -- young people starting out, mid-career workers who are retraining after a layoff, and incumbent factory workers.

Workers are drawn not only by the opportunity but also the pay: Starting salaries of $50,000 to $60,000 are not out of range for high-skilled talent.

Related: $100K manufacturing jobs

But the surge in enrollment is posing unique challenges for schools, many of which are running at or beyond full capacity for the first time in decades.

The rest is here:  http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/31/news/economy/manufacturing-trade-schools/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

It is a good sign.  Good jobs coming back to the US.  Hopefully, the trend will continue under President Romney.

[NHSparky]

Frankly, one of the things the European and Japanese educational systems have right is the fact that not everyone is cut out for a college/university environment, nor should a degree be necessary for one.  Disclaimer: I have a BS, but it has little relevance to my current job or function.

At the 7th-8th grade level, kids should be steered towards a trade school/apprenticeship track versus a university track.  From this, you're going to see several things:

--Lower dropout rates (both HS and college.)
--Higher quality graduates from university/college system.
--More young people ready to enter the workforce with relevant skills and experience.
--Less early-life debt, leading to greater mobility, greater investment/savings versus repayment.

The downside?  Colleges aren't the vaunted institutions that are "needed" any longer.  Sure, they're still important, but we can stop fooling ourselves about you "MUST" have a college degree to succeed in the world.  Yes, it'd be nice, but tell a machinst he has to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.  Really?  Two years of trade school would be a lot cheaper and serve their needs just as well.

And as far as those status-seeking parents who sue school districts for not giving little Johnny an A+ because, "It'll ruin his life!" Uh, no.  Not everyone gets to be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Barack Obama (thank God.)  Setting a REALISTIC goal is always better in the long run than shooting too high and setting little Johnny up for failure.

[Chris_]

I went to a comprehensive high school that had both vocational and academic courses, neither of which they seemed to do well.  I took the only computer-related course and finished it having learned nothing at all.  This was the late 80s/early 90s when schools didn't get brand-new computers every 3-4 years, technology was nowhere near what it is now, and there wasn't any internet to be had. 

Kids need to be prepared for jobs and careers and it starts long before they get into high school.  Unfortunately, union-run public schools combined with lousy parents can't seem to fulfil that basic expectation these days.

[NHSparky]

I went to a comprehensive high school that had both vocational and academic courses, neither of which they seemed to do well.  I took the only computer-related course and finished it having learned nothing at all.  This was the late 80s/early 90s when schools didn't get brand-new computers every 3-4 years, technology was nowhere near what it is now, and there wasn't any internet to be had. 

Kids need to be prepared for jobs and careers and it starts long before they get into high school.  Unfortunately, union-run public schools combined with lousy parents can't seem to fulfil that basic expectation these days.

Believe me, having seen what passes for education these days, I'm probably harder on the kids than I should be (Scoobie would say I'm DEFINITELY harder than I need to be) I know they're going to face an uphill battle even if they are academically proficient.  That simply isn't enough anymore.  They've got to be motivated and have relevant experience if they want to have even a chance of success in the workforce.

[Zeus]

Frankly, one of the things the European and Japanese educational systems have right is the fact that not everyone is cut out for a college/university environment, nor should a degree be necessary for one.  Disclaimer: I have a BS, but it has little relevance to my current job or function.

At the 7th-8th grade level, kids should be steered towards a trade school/apprenticeship track versus a university track.  From this, you're going to see several things:

--Lower dropout rates (both HS and college.)
--Higher quality graduates from university/college system.
--More young people ready to enter the workforce with relevant skills and experience.
--Less early-life debt, leading to greater mobility, greater investment/savings versus repayment.

The downside?  Colleges aren't the vaunted institutions that are "needed" any longer.  Sure, they're still important, but we can stop fooling ourselves about you "MUST" have a college degree to succeed in the world.  Yes, it'd be nice, but tell a machinst he has to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.  Really?  Two years of trade school would be a lot cheaper and serve their needs just as well.

And as far as those status-seeking parents who sue school districts for not giving little Johnny an A+ because, "It'll ruin his life!" Uh, no.  Not everyone gets to be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Barack Obama (thank God.)  Setting a REALISTIC goal is always better in the long run than shooting too high and setting little Johnny up for failure.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Also Dr's , Lawyers and computer geeks will always at one time or another be in need of a Plumber , a mechanic or a carpenter.

[vesta111]

Frankly, one of the things the European and Japanese educational systems have right is the fact that not everyone is cut out for a college/university environment, nor should a degree be necessary for one.  Disclaimer: I have a BS, but it has little relevance to my current job or function.

At the 7th-8th grade level, kids should be steered towards a trade school/apprenticeship track versus a university track.  From this, you're going to see several things:

--Lower dropout rates (both HS and college.)
--Higher quality graduates from university/college system.
--More young people ready to enter the workforce with relevant skills and experience.
--Less early-life debt, leading to greater mobility, greater investment/savings versus repayment.

The downside?  Colleges aren't the vaunted institutions that are "needed" any longer.  Sure, they're still important, but we can stop fooling ourselves about you "MUST" have a college degree to succeed in the world.  Yes, it'd be nice, but tell a machinst he has to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.  Really?  Two years of trade school would be a lot cheaper and serve their needs just as well.

And as far as those status-seeking parents who sue school districts for not giving little Johnny an A+ because, "It'll ruin his life!" Uh, no.  Not everyone gets to be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Barack Obama (thank God.)  Setting a REALISTIC goal is always better in the long run than shooting too high and setting little Johnny up for failure.

I wish I could give you more then one ^5 Sparkey.

This has been my mantra for years, kids need a trade on their back before they head out to College.   Never know when a field will become full or even extinct before you get a BS.   

Look at the kids that graduate for square dancing and basket weaving, parents all so proud they put a child through college.    One hears them all the time bragging about kids that can find no work, then down the street a family a child that went to trade school, can wire up damn near anything or works as a plumber making $80k a year.    Any idea what the workers on the electric lines  get when they go down due to storm ????? 

My son has a friend that works for the power company, took classes in highschool and went on to a 2 year comunity college.    Got a job as a lines man and in a storm especially one with ice and snow his hourly pay goes up to $60+ an hour.

We did laugh at Ralph Kramdon on Jackie Gleason's show. Sewer worker, now fast forward to what these guys are paid today to go into the sewers and repair problems.  Few have college degrees most are trade school educated and a starting pay for anyone willing to do the job starts at $35.00 per hour.   

Stone masones, now we are hitting the top of the trade scale, the cost to build a simple stone wall that will last 100 years as those built in the past is to re morgage the house.

This is not to say anyone with a trade school education  not become more educated in what they really want to do, but if there are problems finding work in Liberary Sciences, knowing how to work hands on may being in more money then the BS can ever do. 

     

[Gratiot]

Frankly, one of the things the European and Japanese educational systems have right is the fact that not everyone is cut out for a college/university environment, nor should a degree be necessary for one.  Disclaimer: I have a BS, but it has little relevance to my current job or function.

At the 7th-8th grade level, kids should be steered towards a trade school/apprenticeship track versus a university track.  From this, you're going to see several things:

--Lower dropout rates (both HS and college.)
--Higher quality graduates from university/college system.
--More young people ready to enter the workforce with relevant skills and experience.
--Less early-life debt, leading to greater mobility, greater investment/savings versus repayment.

The downside?  Colleges aren't the vaunted institutions that are "needed" any longer.  Sure, they're still important, but we can stop fooling ourselves about you "MUST" have a college degree to succeed in the world.  Yes, it'd be nice, but tell a machinst he has to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.  Really?  Two years of trade school would be a lot cheaper and serve their needs just as well.

And as far as those status-seeking parents who sue school districts for not giving little Johnny an A+ because, "It'll ruin his life!" Uh, no.  Not everyone gets to be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Barack Obama (thank God.)  Setting a REALISTIC goal is always better in the long run than shooting too high and setting little Johnny up for failure.

I whole heartedly agree. 

[RobJohnson]

I did great in several trades when I was younger and before my body became all beat up.

Now that I'm older I wish I had a degree.

Especially with the high unemployment in Nevada. (21% in my county, 19% in my town)

I can't move without moving my mother also. So I stick it out.

[thundley4]

I work in a shop the repairs electric motors, generators, welders and a lot of mechanical equipment.  They have hired a couple of younger guys with degrees that didn't make it past the probation period. 

So many of the younger kids don't know the basics of using hand tools.

[Lacarnut]

I work in a shop the repairs electric motors, generators, welders and a lot of mechanical equipment.  They have hired a couple of younger guys with degrees that didn't make it past the probation period. 

So many of the younger kids don't know the basics of using hand tools.

Probably their first job in the work force.  Most of the kids that work part time in high school and college will find a job a lot easier than someone that sat on their dead ass and did not work. This is one of my pet peeves.

[Gratiot]

I work in a shop the repairs electric motors, generators, welders and a lot of mechanical equipment.  They have hired a couple of younger guys with degrees that didn't make it past the probation period.  

So many of the younger kids don't know the basics of using hand tools.

The sad thing is, a number of companies are now requesting degrees for apprenticeship applicants.  This trend started before the economic downturn as well, so it's not just a practice of screening the thousands of application packets they receive now.

[NHSparky]

I work in a shop the repairs electric motors, generators, welders and a lot of mechanical equipment.  They have hired a couple of younger guys with degrees that didn't make it past the probation period. 

So many of the younger kids don't know the basics of using hand tools.

And yet so many of the engineering types think they're going to tell us how to do my job.  Uh, hey there, Mr. Engineer?  That new CCVT you wanted to install?  Did you realize the allowable temperature range isn't going to cover all possible temperatures we're normally exposed to up here?

Does your telling me you're not willing to upgrade equipment because it might cost you a little work fly in the face of the fact that this 30-40 year old equipment is susceptible to false tripping and when a nuke plant goes offline, that costs about $1.5-2 MILLION per DAY?  You want to talk cost-effectiveness now?

They might know the theory as well as me (MAYBE) but they sure as hell don't know the applications.

[thundley4]

And yet so many of the engineering types think they're going to tell us how to do my job.  Uh, hey there, Mr. Engineer?  That new CCVT you wanted to install?  Did you realize the allowable temperature range isn't going to cover all possible temperatures we're normally exposed to up here?

Does your telling me you're not willing to upgrade equipment because it might cost you a little work fly in the face of the fact that this 30-40 year old equipment is susceptible to false tripping and when a nuke plant goes offline, that costs about $1.5-2 MILLION per DAY?  You want to talk cost-effectiveness now?

They might know the theory as well as me (MAYBE) but they sure as hell don't know the applications.

I was told a long time ago that engineers design the problem, and the electricians have to make it work.

[RobJohnson]

I work in a shop the repairs electric motors, generators, welders and a lot of mechanical equipment.  They have hired a couple of younger guys with degrees that didn't make it past the probation period. 

So many of the younger kids don't know the basics of using hand tools.

Too many kids think a diploma gives them the "right to work."    I had friends that did not get their first full time job until they were almost 30 because "there were no jobs out there." I would work, get laid off, and go next door to the next shop and was hired the next day!

I quit two full time jobs that had me on lay off and quit another one without notice to go work for ALCOA. But of course, "there were no jobs." 

[RobJohnson]

I was told a long time ago that engineers design the problem, and the electricians have to make it work.

Every freaking thing the engineers designed I watched production people redesign with the help of an electrician. Especially when they tried to make something fully automated to eliminate manpower....they always screwed that stuff up, as they never worked on the mill to know how it worked in the first place.

[zeitgeist]

I spent around twenty five years teaching mechanical trades to post secondary students in a four year formal apprenticeship.  Just a couple points:

1. When I  began we got reasonably qualified applicants who could do most simple mathematic calculations.
2. Political correctness had not reared its ugly head.
3. Students were happy to have a job with benefits  (WG salary w/full govt benies).
4. Students applied themselves because failure resulted in dismissal.

But all that changed about ten years in:

5. Political correctness forbade math testing as a selection criteria.
6. Basic skills in math became non existent.
7. The most frequent question asked in Orientation became "when can I take a day off"?
8. It became impossible to fire an incompetent student.  (Hat tip to "the union label" and PC)

I could not believe how difficult it became to attract qualified applicants.  For a period of time we began taking Voc Tech graduates but they were good for little more than putting condoms on cucumbers and filling out grievances.  The only Voc Tech students I ever found that could actually poor pi$$ out of a boot came from Northern Maine, apparently PC, like everything else, was about ten years late getting there.  These were students who had paid to learn a trade and were supposed to be able to start at an entry level.  It took the first two years of a four year program to get them up to speed.  No savings there (Voc Techs) since we had to do two years of remedial training.

I was so curious about the state of education that I worked for a testing contractor after I retired.  I was certified to correct both math and English (they had a very hard time finding enough math qualified people).  Say what you will about NCLB, the kids are not even learning how to take and pass the most basic tests.   I scored all areas of the country including Mass which is probably the most difficult to qualify to correct, and, the most difficult for the kids to take. (I did not score was NY but I hear they are also pretty tough).

What has happened to public education is a national disgrace.  There is plenty of blame to go around but blame won't feed the Bulldog.  Charter schools are only a small piece of this puzzle. Schools must get back to teaching basics.  Teachers colleges need to begin turning out teachers who know the basics before they learn how to handle a classroom. The biggest problem with education is education majors.

You cannot teach a kid a trade until they have mastered basic math, they have to undersand the concepts not just push buttons on a calculator.  You cannot teach English by cut and paste on a word processor.  [ I use to get stuff that made Vesta's writing look like Hemingway].  

The standard distribution curve is shifting downward. I would still see brilliant essays or math papers but they were few and far between.

We are a power failure away from total ignorance with much of today's youth.  

And in our FWIW category I was reading a DUmp thread a few days ago something like "What would you do if you kid's teacher told them they were not suited for college".   Anyone want to guess at their replys?


ETA:  Found the DU thread I spoke of it is a grouchy old don thread of those who enjoy the antics of the DUmp.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10021196266

[RobJohnson]

There is also the very popular question that I hear job applicants ask:

"Do you drug test?"

[obumazombie]

There is also the very popular question that I hear job applicants ask:

"Do you drug test?"

Avoiding work is hard work.

[Gratiot]

I was told a long time ago that engineers design the problem, and the electricians have to make it work.

There's just a large disconnect between theory and applied theory, that not every engineer is able to cross.  While it's also true that not every electrician or technician is able to grasp more than basic theory.  The people who can bridge the gap though, really tend to be successful.  Unfortunately, there also tends to be people who coasted through engineering school or an apprenticeship and miraculously passed who neither know theory or applied theory.

[Gratiot]

But all that changed about ten years in:

5. Political correctness forbade math testing as a selection criteria.
6. Basic skills in math became non existent.
7. The most frequent question asked in Orientation became "when can I take a day off"?
8. It became impossible to fire an incompetent student.  (Hat tip to "the union label" and PC)

I could not believe how difficult it became to attract qualified applicants.

I can unequivocally vouch for what you first witnessed as having started around ten years ago.  The introduction of affirmative action and political correctness concepts into the applicant selection process for apprentices was heartbreakingly disastrous in many industries.  Thankfully, many of those mistakes have been corrected by now (although not with all industries), but the repercussions are still painful.  Unfortunately some absurd things like having a woman skip the strength test to be an ironworker/rigger apprentice still painfully occur.  

While every industry is different, many apprenticeships still test for basic math skills.  It's really common for a lot of trades that high school or college transcripts be submitted showing successful completion of Algebra, Geometry, and Trig.  The CAST, Construction and Skilled Trades Test is still widely used by most formal apprenticeships as a selection criteria for applicants.  Yes, I'm aware of the drama with it from about 10 years ago... which is really kind of fascinating.

The firing of incompetent students is handled differently in every apprenticeship.  Every outfit is different but in a number of them, the unions are actually fighting to make the apprenticeship more difficult with automatic discharge proceedings to begin for those who don't pass.  If you think about it, it's in both the company and union's best interest to strive for the best work force possible.  It really comes down though to how the apprenticeship or training program was set up.  The two formal apprenticeship programs that I went through both had mandatory testing on a regular basis.  Typically a 4-8 hour test with written, verbal, and drawings/prints, every 30-120 days.  With firm contractual language stating, if you fail once, you're allowed one retake in 30 days.  Fail a second time, you're immediately and permanently removed from the program and discharge proceedings begin.

I always find it interesting and a bit puzzling to hear of the difficulties some training programs have with finding qualified candidates.  When you look at how they treat their candidates or apprentices though, it often (not always) becomes pretty self-explanatory, at least IME.

[zeitgeist]

I can unequivocally vouch for what you first witnessed as having started around ten years ago.  The introduction of affirmative action and political correctness concepts into the applicant selection process for apprentices was heartbreakingly disastrous in many industries.  Thankfully, many of those mistakes have been corrected by now (although not with all industries), but the repercussions are still painful.  Unfortunately some absurd things like having a woman skip the strength test to be an ironworker/rigger apprentice still painfully occur.  

While every industry is different, many apprenticeships still test for basic math skills.  It's really common for a lot of trades that high school or college transcripts be submitted showing successful completion of Algebra, Geometry, and Trig.  The CAST, Construction and Skilled Trades Test is still widely used by most formal apprenticeships as a selection criteria for applicants.  Yes, I'm aware of the drama with it from about 10 years ago... which is really kind of fascinating.

The firing of incompetent students is handled differently in every apprenticeship.  Every outfit is different but in a number of them, the unions are actually fighting to make the apprenticeship more difficult with automatic discharge proceedings to begin for those who don't pass.  If you think about it, it's in both the company and union's best interest to strive for the best work force possible.  It really comes down though to how the apprenticeship or training program was set up.  The two formal apprenticeship programs that I went through both had mandatory testing on a regular basis.  Typically a 4-8 hour test with written, verbal, and drawings/prints, every 30-120 days.  With firm contractual language stating, if you fail once, you're allowed one retake in 30 days.  Fail a second time, you're immediately and permanently removed from the program and discharge proceedings begin.

I always find it interesting and a bit puzzling to hear of the difficulties some training programs have with finding qualified candidates.  When you look at how they treat their candidates or apprentices though, it often (not always) becomes pretty self-explanatory, at least IME.

We never lacked for applicants, the problem was qualified applicants. We lost a lot to drug tests and background checks required for security clearances.  The late eighties and nineties students were abysmal when it came to math.  As I said earlier it was necessary to provide remedial training in math even though the students had HS diplomas or Voc Tech training.  Nuclear subs don't have a margin for error.

[Gratiot]

We never lacked for applicants, the problem was qualified applicants. We lost a lot to drug tests and background checks required for security clearances.  The late eighties and nineties students were abysmal when it came to math.  As I said earlier it was necessary to provide remedial training in math even though the students had HS diplomas or Voc Tech training.  Nuclear subs don't have a margin for error.

I understand the distinction, and mentioned qualified - specifically, as well.  Out of curiosity, how did the nuclear school graduate bonuses that came out in the late nineties affect your applicant pool?  I'm assuming you worked with the Navy nuclear school program.  That lack of margin of error, although we had a bit more in the utility industry, is partly why we insisted on defending the integrity of our training program so thoroughly.

[zeitgeist]

I understand the distinction, and mentioned qualified - specifically, as well.  Out of curiosity, how did the nuclear school graduate bonuses that came out in the late nineties affect your applicant pool?  I'm assuming you worked with the Navy nuclear school program.   That lack of margin of error, although we had a bit more in the utility industry, is partly why we insisted on defending the integrity of our training program so thoroughly.

No, I worked the civilian side of the house (so it had no real effect, as we got more HS than former sailors as applicants).

One thing we always pointed out, 'the whole boat has to go down river, not just the reactor'.  That said, the nucs always got the best of the best. 

 

[NHSparky]

Damn skippy we did, and by God we EARNED it.

[zeitgeist]

Frankly, one of the things the European and Japanese educational systems have right is the fact that not everyone is cut out for a college/university environment, nor should a degree be necessary for one.  Disclaimer: I have a BS, but it has little relevance to my current job or function.

At the 7th-8th grade level, kids should be steered towards a trade school/apprenticeship track versus a university track.  From this, you're going to see several things:

--Lower dropout rates (both HS and college.)
--Higher quality graduates from university/college system.
--More young people ready to enter the workforce with relevant skills and experience.
--Less early-life debt, leading to greater mobility, greater investment/savings versus repayment.

The downside?  Colleges aren't the vaunted institutions that are "needed" any longer.  Sure, they're still important, but we can stop fooling ourselves about you "MUST" have a college degree to succeed in the world.  Yes, it'd be nice, but tell a machinst he has to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.  Really?  Two years of trade school would be a lot cheaper and serve their needs just as well.

And as far as those status-seeking parents who sue school districts for not giving little Johnny an A+ because, "It'll ruin his life!" Uh, no.  Not everyone gets to be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Barack Obama (thank God.)  Setting a REALISTIC goal is always better in the long run than shooting too high and setting little Johnny up for failure.

You are correct.  Not every child deserves an "A" nor a college education.  I would like to think my surgeon is a cut above my mechanic although both are necessary and may have attended elementary school together.  Heck they could both be given an "A" in recess for all I care. But, I would like to be sure my surgeon is the most qualified of all candidates not the most politically correct candidate to fill the slot at college.

And you are right about a machinist not needing to be a mechanical engineer.  It can take years to develop a good machinist, a couple years of trade school is just the starting point.  Then too, there are machinists and there are those who push 'cycle start' and hope for the best.    With some it is instinctive, with others it can be learned, and with still others?  Well that is why they have those big red buttons.