Author Topic: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet  (Read 2785 times)

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Offline ScubaGuy

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MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« on: July 21, 2012, 11:21:28 AM »

Another DUmmie poser shows himself. Amazing

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TheMastersNemesis (1,025 posts)

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The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
I know many people know how deadly the .223 round from an M-16 is or AR 15. For those people who do not know. Here is what I discovered my first days in Vietnam.

My first day in the field our squad leader shot two VC in a brief skirmish. They were left behind to harass our company when we were searching an enemy camp. I came up on the scene less than a minute after these two enemy were hit. There was not a mark on them except a couple of very small holes similar to a 22 caliber rifle. Yet they were done for because the bullet traveled all over their body. Even if you were hit in an extremity it could very well amputate that part of the body.

There was good reason why you never locked and loaded any M-16 unless you were ready for immediate action. It was simply too dangerous a weapon to be even shot by accident.

The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon. What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel throughout the target it hits and then fragment. The lethality of this kind of weapon is so severe that it should not be on the streets of this country.

There is no earthly reason to have such an assault weapon available to the general public. It is a murder and killing weapon.

And forget what you see in the movies. High velocity assault weapons will go through two car doors and still do damage. The only place safe in a firefight is behind the engine block.

Even the other DUmmies see through this one.
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ProgressiveProfessor (17,063 posts)
7. Utter nonsense

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No sure what comic book you got that "information" from, but it does not correlate with the real world.

The .223 is chambered in many rifles outside of the M-16/AR-15 kind of rifles. It is a medium cartridge, not high power. If it did what you claim, why is it used for hunting and found in bolt action rifles.

It has nowhere near the stopping power or penetration of a 50BMG round. Basic physics will tell you that. So will the ballistic tables.

Fact are good to know. Come back when you find some

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Marinedem (96 posts)
12. +1

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The story gives me serious pause. I do not believe that a real infantryman would ever "not have a weapon locked and loaded" out of fear of it. Anyone that has ever been in the infantry in a time of war knows how stupid that sounds. Anyone can claim to be a veteran online. Don't get me wrong, I realize I'm in question too by that standard. I'm just saying that the blatantly false claims made in that post combined with what smell like BS claims make the entire post suspect.

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Johnny Rico (1,272 posts)
13. Ridiculous post.

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The .223 is so "powerful" it's used for hunting prairie dogs. It's not even considered sufficient for deer. Saying it has the stopping power of a .50 BMG is the height of absurdity.


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Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:58 PM

Star Member Ptah (22,624 posts)
14. I don't belive you

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The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation that when it strikes an object it acts like a dud and has the stopping action of a 50 caliber weapon.

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Star Member Drahthaardogs (707 posts)
21. Where did you come up with this line of nonsense?

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The .223 is a varmit rifle not legal for big game hunting in most western states, because it lacks the power to take down big game. Factory loads pushing a 55-grain bullet in excess of 3000 feet per second are available. At the muzzle, it generates around 1,200 ft. pounds.

In contrast, my Alaskan rifle, a .338 Remington Ultra Mag, pushes a 250 grain bullet (5 times as heavy) about 2900 feet per second, but has a muzzle energy of around 4,200 ft lbs of energy.

A .50 cal BMG generates about 13,000 ft. lbs of energy.

The .223 is a cheap round, has been militarized, and is fairly accurate. It is no way, shape, or form will compare ballistically to a .50 BMG or even a .338.

The problem here is the high capacity magazines.

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Serve The Servants (263 posts)
34. Oh Jeez...

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I wonder how long it's going to be before a lurker from AR15.com gets a hold of this one and they shit all over it. (Sorry, but rightly so, if you ask me.)

On another note, I'm still trying to figure out how this kid was able to afford thousands of dollars in guns, ammo, body armor and tactical gear - plus pay the rent on time... Not to mention how in the Hell does a civilian get ****ing TEAR GAS!?!


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EpsilonZer0 (3 posts)
38. OMG Get out of Here with your BS

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If you were REALLY in vietnam you would know that every GI that landed in that hell hole dropped their m16 in favor of an ak47 when they found one or wished that they could. This was because the m16 just wasnt as lethal as the ak47 in most combat situations.

Secondly the .223 WAS NOT IN VIETNAM! It was the 5.56x45mm which is very simmilar but the cases are thicker and the leade from the mouth of the cartridge to where the rifling meets it. .223 is not fully compatable with 5.56 rifles unless the rifle was made so.

And fragment my ass. In vietnam we were shooting mostly full metal jackets which make very clean holes buddy.
Hell, most States DO NOT ALLOW the use of .223 rifles for any kind of deer or large game hunting even with hollow-point bullets because its just not lethal enough to take them down.

Go through 2 car doors??? A .223 will not go through 2 car doors even at 50 yards. Get an ak47 for that.

Any gun can kill someone at near point blank range and aimed at vital areas but your argument that the .223 or 5.56 is more lethal than other types of firearms is full of holes and disinformation.


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CbtEngr01 (14 posts)
46. WTF are you talking about??

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"The .223 was designed to have only just enough rotation -WHAT THE HELL DOES ROTATION HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? AS LONG AS THE TWIST RATE IS ADEQUATE TO STABILIZE THE BULLET THEN 'ROTATION' HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT-that
when it strikes an object it acts
like a dud-A DUD? PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS- and has the stopping
action of a 50 caliber weapon.-REALLY? WHAT 50 CALIBER WEAPON? A MUZZEL LOADER? EVER COMPARED ENERGY LEVELS BETWEEN THE 50BMG AND THE 223/5.56?-
What makes it so bad is that the bullet is meant to travel
throughout the target it hits and
then fragment."-WHAT? ONLY BULLETS DESIGNED TO FRAGMENT WILL FRAGMENT. THE FAMOUS FULL METAL JACKET WILL NOT FRAGMENT.

I suggest you educate yourself on external and terminal ballistics before you go spewing false information to everyone

I wonder where the DUmmie special forces guys are at?  11Boo and Arbusto have yet to put their two cents in.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 11:31:02 AM »
The Air Force was the original recipient of the AR-15/M-16 because the Army wasn't convinced of the effectiveness of the 5.56 round versus the 7.62 used in the M-14 IRRC.  It took the Army a couple years to come around.

My Drill Sergeants also explained to us that with the smaller round...you could hump more ammo on patrol.

In addition they told us that in theory a round that wounds someone on the battlefield takes out not just the person shot...but 1-2 people needed to treat that person and/or carry them back to a medic so you take 3 people off the battle field with one shot...versus a bigger round simply killing said person and the other soldiers moving on in the fight.

True or not it seems to make sense.

It's certainly a lot more plausible than that bullshit that MasterAssClown came up with.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
The Air Force was the original recipient of the AR-15/M-16 because the Army wasn't convinced of the effectiveness of the 5.56 round versus the 7.62 used in the M-14 IRRC.  It took the Army a couple years to come around.

My Drill Sergeants also explained to us that with the smaller round...you could hump more ammo on patrol.

In addition they told us that in theory a round that wounds someone on the battlefield takes out not just the person shot...but 1-2 people needed to treat that person and/or carry them back to a medic so you take 3 people off the battle field with one shot...versus a bigger round simply killing said person and the other soldiers moving on in the fight.

True or not it seems to make sense.

It's certainly a lot more plausible than that bullshit that MasterAssClown came up with.

I heard that bolded part too, back in the day; unfortunately it's the kind of thinking that makes great sense logistically and strategically, but is stupid as all Hell tactically, because (a) it only works if the enemy cares for their casualties like the US, Western Europe, or Israel do, and we haven't fought anybody like that since WW2, and (b) enemy soldiers who are wounded instead of killed will keep shooting back.
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Offline Carl

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 11:46:33 AM »
If I am wrong please correct me but isn`t it part of the Geneva treaty that only full metal jacket bullets can be used so as to not create the horrific damage a fragmenting bullet can do?

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 12:04:31 PM »
Let me tell you about the new sooper-dooper red/blue .22 cal. hollow point.....

uh huh...sorry...Rove says that's top secrect.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2012, 12:16:16 PM »
 :rofl: That there was funny.

TMN is a flippin moron.
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Offline BattleHymn

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 12:21:34 PM »
Thanks for reminding me, primitives-

There was a used S&W MP15 on the rack outside the Fine Guns Room at Bass Pro, on Thursday when I was in there looking around.  It fit my hands nicely. 

I think I'll go there again, and see if it's still there.   

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2012, 12:31:21 PM »
If I am wrong please correct me but isn`t it part of the Geneva treaty that only full metal jacket bullets can be used so as to not create the horrific damage a fragmenting bullet can do?

You're correct, and the 5.56 in all its variants is FMJ.  The whole myth here comes from the fact that in the M193 version, the spin was enough to stabilize it in flight, but with the velocity and relatively small length/diameter ratio, not so much in flesh or anything else, so they tended to tumble once in the wound, doing more damage than they otherwise would.  Whether they are really more likely to break up more than other bullets in a body is pretty conjectural, but they certainly do if they hit anything hard, even a stick, on the way to the target.  There is a pretty good chance one would break up if it hit a rib or other bone on the way in, I guess.  This is why the 5.56 is notoriously poor at hitting an enemy through light cover...and so, also why we have M240Bs.   
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Offline Bad Dog

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 12:38:27 PM »
DUmmies are so much fun when they get all military.  The primary value of the 5.56 round is the high velocity to weigh ratio. This makes the round more unstable (problematic in a "jungle" environment) when it strikes any object. The instability causes the round to tumble and veer around inside the body.  It doesn't knock the recipient back 10 feet (neither does a cal .50) but they bleed out pretty quick.

As to the AK-47 yarn absolute bullshit.  If nothing else, most AK ammo in RVN was reloaded by mama san in a wet bunker.

Offline Airwolf

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 01:09:22 PM »
MasterassClown spread so much BS the crops can come in early now. Allof the others here have covered that but I just wanted to add that I have never liked the M-16 as it was chambered and if I had the choice I would have carried something else. I did however get to carry an XM-21 twice while in the 101st . Once when going to Panama for jungle training and one other time when our unit was called out for the invasion of Grenada. They made me carry both the M-16 and the XM-21 that time just to have me carry them until we would have someplace to secure both when we got there.  We never got there but with all crap we had to carry another weapon didn't make it easier.
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Offline jukin

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 01:15:16 PM »
I've seen a M16 shoot through an inline 6 block.

Once again, a DUchebag is never afraid to reveal themselves as complete clowns....and internets laughingstocks.
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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 02:05:37 PM »
I am surprised that gNads, the Master Armorer 10th Degree, has not *weighed* (pun intended) in to shed some light on this conversation. Surely, with her vastness, er, vast storehouse of knowledge she can put this subject to rest.
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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 03:02:35 PM »
TheMastersNemesis -- Duuuuude..

My knowledge on firearms is about as vast as my fashion sense. - about enough to fill a thimble. -Its why I'm not found discussing firearms, because I really have nothing relevant to add. Its also why all of my clothes more-or-less match, because I can barely dress myself well enough to be seen in public. The missus will be more than happy to agree. In these subjects, I am utterly, hopelessly, clueless.

 Anyway, my point is that when even <<I>> know that you are spouting a bunch of crap, you have totally screwed the pooch.

Offline zeitgeist

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 03:42:13 PM »
There are some interesting 100 round threads going on over there too featuring Weapons Expert gNad. 

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002987381
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/1002991916

 :rotf:

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Offline DefiantSix

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 03:49:45 PM »
TheMastersNemesis -- Duuuuude..

My knowledge on firearms is about as vast as my fashion sense. - about enough to fill a thimble. -Its why I'm not found discussing firearms, because I really have nothing relevant to add. Its also why all of my clothes more-or-less match, because I can barely dress myself well enough to be seen in public. The missus will be more than happy to agree. In these subjects, I am utterly, hopelessly, clueless.

 Anyway, my point is that when even <<I>> know that you are spouting a bunch of crap, you have totally screwed the pooch.

More to the point, when the DUmp denizens can beat this assclown's wee l'il campfire out WITH FACTS  :o and not have to resort to their usual poo flinging and ad hominem attacks, this guy was done before he ever put the crack pipe down and put fingers to keyboard.
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Offline Skul

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2012, 04:28:46 PM »
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Response to cliffordu (Reply #43)
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 11:02 AM
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61. He pulled his entire OP out of a place where the Sun never shines
No shit, Sherlock.
It appears masterofnumbnuts stepped on his own weewee.  :lmao:
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2012, 04:29:54 PM »
I'm waiting for 11 Boo to wade into this discussion.  :popcorn:
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Offline Skul

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2012, 04:34:29 PM »
I'm waiting for 11 Boo to wade into this discussion.  :popcorn:
Don't hold your breath. It's above numberBoohoo's pay grade.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2012, 06:49:41 PM »
I've seen a M16 shoot through an inline 6 block.

Once again, a DUchebag is never afraid to reveal themselves as complete clowns....and internets laughingstocks.

Dunno about that, but the M855 round which has been in use since the M16A2 was fielded around 20 years ago is a much different round than the M193 of the Viet Nam era, and a far better penetrator; the M855 is basically our version of the longer, heavier, but less-dense steel core NATO SS109 standard bullet, and the rifling for it is close to twice the twist rate you would find in a .223 or M16/M16A1.  The SS109 standard was developed to improve on the M193's long range performance, particularly its penetration at long range, but it did incidentally also substantially improve its performance against targets in light cover at normal battle ranges, too.  The lower twist rates barrels of a .223 or M16/M16A1 won't stabilize M855 ammo, I can tell you it makes some pretty damned funny-looking holes at random places on the target, generally sideways and lower than point of aim, if you were to say, try it just for shits and grins.
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Offline I_B_Perky

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 07:09:49 PM »
This dumbass lost me at .223 vs .50. Once I got finished laughing and cleaning beer off my laptop, I skipped over the rest of his bowel movement.
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Offline ChuckJ

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 07:19:32 PM »
I've never owned a firearm. As best I can recall I've only fired a .22LR revolver and a .357 Desert Eagle. I know next to nothing about firearms, and I still seem to know more than a guy who claims to have served in the military. Strange.
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Offline Airwolf

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 07:52:33 PM »
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-7i-svGLK8[/youtube]
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Offline zeitgeist

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2012, 08:55:26 AM »
And now we find out this:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-assault-rifle-jammed-colo-attack-121634899.html

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AP Source: Assault rifle jammed in Colo. attack
AURORA, Colo. (AP) — The semiautomatic assault rifle used by the gunman in a mass shooting at a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie jammed during the attack, a federal law enforcement official told The Associated Press, which forced the shooter to switch to another gun with less fire power.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said the disabled weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine.



Now will 11BravoSierra tell us how this use to happen all the time in the Nam??
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Offline ScubaGuy

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2012, 09:05:45 AM »
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Trunk Monkey (113 posts)
125. Do you understand that most posters here are saying you're full of shit?

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As in you never set a ****ing foot in Viet Nam?

Would you care to address that ?

 :lol:
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: MasterNemesis- The .223 A Very Deadly Bullet
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2012, 09:08:09 AM »
And now we find out this:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-assault-rifle-jammed-colo-attack-121634899.html

Now will 11BravoSierra tell us how this use to happen all the time in the Nam??

Not even Kalashnikov is immune from Murphy.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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