The Tax part is only the Penalty for not having insurance

[Freeper]

cthulu2016 (2,995 posts)

 
The Tax part is only the Penalty for not having insurance

Last edited Thu Jun 28, 2012, 05:43 PM USA/ET - Edit history (3)

The government says, "Hey, get insured."

a) You buy private insurance, or
b) You do not buy private insurance

If you opt for "b" then there is a penalty. That penalty is only in the form of money that you must pay to the government.

If there was no penalty there would be no controversy. The government saying, "Get insured," would just be advice, like the government's advice about inflating your tires, eating your vegetables, etc..

So that penalty is the entirety of the controversy.

And it is only that penalty which was examined to see whether it fell within Congress' ability to levy taxes and fees.

And it did.

With tax policy we can usually express things two ways—a tax-credit for insulating your attic can also be expressed as a tax penalty for not insulating your attic. There is no "natural" rate of taxation. As corporations have taught us, a tax break is the same as a cash payment. If it reduces the size of the tax check you write then your bank account has more money than otherwise, same as if the government had sent you a check. The home mortgage interest deduction can be viewed as a tax on renting, and so on.

Can Congress use tax policy to encourage you to buy health insurance? Sure. Why not? It already uses tax policy to tell you to not smoke, to drive less, to own a house, to send kids to college, to off-shore jobs, to park money in the Cayman Islands, to prefer capital gains to straight income, etc..

Only the penalty for not having insurance even though you can afford insurance is at issue, and only that is defined as a tax, or fee.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002872826

The stupid is strong with this one. A tax credit is different than an additional tax levied because you don't do what 0bama tells you to do. If they passed a law tomorrow that said get new insulation for your attic, or we will add an additional tax on you at the end of the years would be just as wrong as this. The way the tax credit works is if you do something your tax liability decreases, if you do not get insulation then you don't get hit with more taxes. I wondered from the start of this crap why they didn't offer tax breaks for buying insurance instead of adding an additional tax if you don't comply, then it hit me the reason is they don't want to lose revenue for people behaving like they are being directed to behave.

[jukin]

If there was no penalty there would be no controversy. The government saying, "Get insured," would just be advice, like the government's advice about inflating your tires, eating your vegetables, etc..

If this is mole work BRAVO!!!

If not it is the heart of the issue that we have been talking about and a HUGE BLIND SQUIRREL ALERT.

[Freeper]

notadmblnd (16,088 posts)
27. The tax is only for those that can afford insurance and don't buy it

Last edited Thu Jun 28, 2012, 08:17 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

low income and the poor will get assistance with their premiums or qualify for medicaid

How in the hell can the government determine if one can afford insurance anyway? Even if they go by a certain amount of money what's to say that it is affordable to that person? There may be circumstances that make it hard for that person to afford health insurance. This whole idea of one size fits all is bull shit.

[Vagabond]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002872826

The stupid is strong with this one. A tax credit is different than an additional tax levied because you don't do what 0bama tells you to do. If they passed a law tomorrow that said get new insulation for your attic, or we will add an additional tax on you at the end of the years would be just as wrong as this. The way the tax credit works is if you do something your tax liability decreases, if you do not get insulation then you don't get hit with more taxes. I wondered from the start of this crap why they didn't offer tax breaks for buying insurance instead of adding an additional tax if you don't comply, then it hit me the reason is they don't want to lose revenue for people behaving like they are being directed to behave.

That's because fascists, communists, and assorted other leftist trash like the modern democrat party like having the ability to demand that you pay a jizya to their political supporters.  Why else would they give waivers to their union fellow travelers?

[Chris_]

Only a dumbass liberal would think forced compliance under threat of penalty is a good thing.

[Ballygrl]

What's the effect of Obamacare going to be for the employers?

[Ballygrl]

notadmblnd (16,088 posts)
27. The tax is only for those that can afford insurance and don't buy it

Last edited Thu Jun 28, 2012, 08:17 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

low income and the poor will get assistance with their premiums or qualify for medicaid

I can count on less then 5 fingers the number of Doctors in my County who take Medicaid, add to that the number of Doctors who'll say to the Government and opt out of certain insurance plans.

[Mike220]

notadmblnd (16,088 posts)
27. The tax is only for those that can afford insurance and don't buy it

Last edited Thu Jun 28, 2012, 08:17 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

low income and the poor will get assistance with their premiums or qualify for medicaid

Medicaid? The insurance with the highest rate of denial of care in the country? Awesome...

[Rebel]

How the **** do these jackasses think this even comes CLOSE to "but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"? This is not an "income tax". This is just a tax for living. An excise tax.


Nevermind. These Communist ****s have never given a damn about the Constitution.  

[WinOne4TheGipper]

How in the hell can the government determine if one can afford insurance anyway? Even if they go by a certain amount of money what's to say that it is affordable to that person? There may be circumstances that make it hard for that person to afford health insurance. This whole idea of one size fits all is bull shit.

Exactly.  The arbiter of what one can afford should be the individual or their spouse or qualified financial professional, not a faceless and far away bureaucrat.

[Rebel]

I plan on dropping mine. I'm supposed to pay full premium when all I have to do is pay a tax? Screw it. If Romney wins, great. Repeal it...if you trust him. If he doesn't, I need to divert that extra money I spend to more important things, like ammo.

[Rebel]

BTW, anyone is free to tell me how everything is going to be ok. I know the full impact of what happened today. I know precedent. Most of you do. This is one of the darkest days in our nation's history.

[Vagabond]

BTW, anyone is free to tell me how everything is going to be ok. I know the full impact of what happened today. I know precedent. Most of you do. This is one of the darkest days in our nation's history.

It's dark, but it really only changed the day the zombie finally collapses.  The spreadsheet has the government at a bit more than $15T in debt while we hold at least $60T in unfunded liabilities not yet on the book.  This just piles it on faster.  The Fed ultimately knows that it is holding debt that will never be paid.  What difference if this dreck moves the day of reckoning forward a few years?

[Rebel]

Do you understand what the "day of reckoning" entails? I do. Being a selfish sumbitch, I was hoping that day would come long after I'm gone. It didn't. We're Greece in 3 years if this Kenyan Communist gets re-elected. Our military will be gutted to pay for these entitlements. Not a mandate? My ****ing ass. If I'm not in the DUmbass definition of "poor", I better buy insurance. If I don't, I better pay the tax. If I refuse, the IRS can send ARMED agents to my house. You people still think we live in a free country? I didn't even f'n MENTION the precedent set.

[Vagabond]

Do you understand what the "day of reckoning" entails? I do. Being a selfish sumbitch, I was hoping that day would come long after I'm gone. It didn't. We're Greece in 3 years if this Kenyan Communist gets re-elected. Our military will be gutted to pay for these entitlements. Not a mandate? My ****ing ass. If I'm not in the DUmbass definition of "poor", I better buy insurance. If I don't, I better pay the tax. If I refuse, the IRS can send ARMED agents to my house. You people still think we live in a free country? I didn't even f'n MENTION the precedent set.

Yeah, I know what that day of reckoning will be like.  One of two things will happen.  People that have been told they are entitled to an existence all theur life will either stop receiving checks, or watch their entitlements inflated into nothingness.  Either way, people will die, the entitlement crowd really doesn't like not having air conditioning and a full gut.  Rights will be ignored, and the government will become a tyrannical beast trying to hold it's territories together.  The country you and I love will be well and truly dead.

God help us all. 

We're Greece in two years if he is re-elected and probably three if he isn't.  The politicians in DC trade not in votes but in power.  They have just successfully seized the power to compel each of us to make choices they may not otherwise make.  They, Democrat or Republican, will not be easily convinced to concede it, if they can be convinced at all.

What will they compel next?  Will we be required to refit our homes with fire extinguishing systems?  Will thermostats controlled by the power company be installed by their fiat?  Will they mandate what and how much we eat?

Instead of one tyrant in England we have a million and one tyrants in DC backed by an army that will march to their drums for a loaf of bread and a television.  The founding fathers would have already.......

[txradioguy]

What's the effect of Obamacare going to be for the employers?

They'll dump the insurance coverage on their employees and pay the fine because it's cheaper and they want to stay in business.  It will then be on the employee to go find their own gov't sponsored health care.

[Wineslob]

What's the effect of Obamacare going to be for the employers?

A $3000 fee per employee. So if the employer is paying out $5000 + per employee for current insurance..........guess what?

[Kyle Ricky]

How in the hell can the government determine if one can afford insurance anyway? Even if they go by a certain amount of money what's to say that it is affordable to that person? There may be circumstances that make it hard for that person to afford health insurance. This whole idea of one size fits all is bull shit.

My understanding is that a household making less than $20,000 a year will be put on medicaid? Now you know what all the welfare bums and lazy asses will also get. That is if they also get rid of access+. And of course, the tax payers will be paying for it.

[jukin]

A $3000 fee per employee. So if the employer is paying out $5000 + per employee for current insurance..........guess what?

If you like your plan, you will be paying a lot more for it because your employer will be dropping you. Also if you work for a medical device company, you have a good chance of losing your insurance and your job.

Yesterday, was worse for the life of our country than Pearl Harbor and 9/11 combined. Why is it that it is only our judges that change sides and never the big gov totalitarian judges?

[jtyangel]

If you like your plan, you will be paying a lot more for it because your employer will be dropping you. Also if you work for a medical device company, you have a good chance of losing your insurance and your job.

Yesterday, was worse for the life of our country than Pearl Harbor and 9/11 combined. Why is it that it is only our judges that change sides and never the big gov totalitarian judges?

I tend to think that the people who loves this think somehow this compels their employer to both have a healthplan and absorb most of the costs of it. In their mind, they think their alternative if they don't is the government is going to provide healthcare ala Medicaid to them and that's what the tax is--basically a premium for gov. care. Lot's of people are going to have a big surprise coming to them and the rest of us dragged in with it are not only going to not be able to afford care and have to drop but we'll be penalized for not being able to afford care thereby making healthcare even more inaccessible to average Americans. The funny thing is is that means the middle class will now be left to do what illegals did and clutter up the ER's, but at least the poor and illegal are now going to be in the doctor's office while the average American sits in the ER. They've basically switched roles and nothing else and sadly the ones paying for the care for the ones who can go to the doctor at some point can't even afford to go their themselves. I'll state it again this thing will now make healthcare inaccessible for more people to make it more accessible for the few. The usual liberal way of doing things.

[Bad Dog]

A $3000 fee per employee. So if the employer is paying out $5000 + per employee for current insurance..........guess what?

The govt. gets its $3000, hopefully the employer gives the employee the extra $2000 & the employee scrounges up either the extra $3000 for ins. or $1000 to pay his fine.  The govt. gets $6000 & the employee & family get the high hard one.

[67 Rover]

If you like your plan, you will be paying a lot more for it because your employer will be dropping you. Also if you work for a medical device company, you have a good chance of losing your insurance and your job.

Yesterday, was worse for the life of our country than Pearl Harbor and 9/11 combined. Why is it that it is only our judges that change sides and never the big gov totalitarian judges?

Yep, My company and its biggest competitor started building manufacturing facility's one year ago in the same office complex in Costa Rica, which we are told will save a minimum of $28mil a year.  We went online just a few weeks ago and the workforce reductions have already started on the West/East coast, when all is said and done it will be 2K jobs lost. 

I am on the East coast in Massachusetts where it will now only be R&D as we would have to endure being taxed both at a state level and federal level if we continued manufacturing.  My job as an Electro/Optic Engineer is in the R&D area but after the recent ruling and our chosen candidate for President I do not feel like the future employment situation here is very bright. 

[JohnnyReb]

All this will do is create a two tier healthcare system. A private system for the evil rich and selected government officials such as Brokeback and Moochelle Obama and friends. The rest of us will get rationed crumbs at the government run public system.

My uncle, the southern conservative democrat doctor, warned me of this 30/35 years ago. I couldn't believe it at the time but here it is.

[jukin]

It just came to me what 0bama meant when he said now your employer could give you a $3000 raise.

Typical policy cost to employer is $5000/yr.
First few years penalty is circa $2000/yr
Drop policy for employee save $5000 pay $2000 fine and magically there is $3000.

I have a question because I just did not see this POS getting past SCOTUS. In the above scenario, would the employee also have to pay the tax if he did not get insurance?

The most typical scenario is that:

The employer pays a $2000 fine and pockets $3000 for each employee each year and the employees buy mandated insurance for a net loss of $5000.
The employer pays a $2000 fine and pockets $3000 for each employee each year and the employees do not buy mandated insurance for a net loss of $2000 and no insurance.
The employer pays a $2000 fine and pockets $3000 for each employee each year and the employees do not buy mandated insurance but do not have to pay the $2000 fine for a net loss of no insurance.

I do not understand how the employer would have to pay a fine and then the individual would have to pay a fine too. It would not surprise me.

[I_B_Perky]

Well I didn't read all the comments but I can tell you what is going to happen. That "tax" on people that don't have insurance is gonna go up once the cost overruns, dummies avoiding having insurance, etc. become apparent. It has to. No way around it.  Now who is gonna suffer under this? If you said Dummies you would be correct.

The dummies are really stupid. They think that they are gonna get free insurance. Ain't gonna work out that way and I predict in 3 years, if it ain't repealed, then the dummies will be whining about the eeeeeeevil fed gummint.

Wait until congress passes legislation taking away their welfare EIC credit to make them pay for their insurance. It will come. Dummies wanted it, they got it, Toyota.

Just my 2 cents.