An open letter to DU (About Help and Meta)

[Ballygrl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124092060

MadHound
 
An open letter to DU

Frankly, I haven't checked out much of what is going on in Help and Meta, at least not before yesterday. After all, DU is primarily a political chat board and "Discuss Democratic Underground. Ask questions and get help from other DU members. Post cool tips. Share your thoughts about the DU Community Standards. Bemoan the current state of DU." didn't sound all that interesting to me. Sure, I figured that there would be some people moaning and groaning about the jury system, but really now, how contentious can a Help forum be? That all changed after I served on a jury that was adjudicating a post.

I was shocked, shocked, outraged, disgusted, and several comments along those lines. Not at the post I was adjudicating, at least not just that, but rather the entire thread from which the post came from. Back biting, personal attacks, call outs, on and on the bad behavior went. I finally voted to leave the particular post I was asked to judge alone, because frankly if I didn't know where to begin, for in my opinion the entire thread needed to be locked.

After that, I checked out what was going on elsewhere in Help and Meta, and came away feeling slimed, slimed and ashamed for the DU community. Now don't get me wrong, I love a good rumble on a thread as much as the next person, and have participated in my fair share of them over the past ten years. But even the most scorching flamewars I was involved in revolved around something, generally politics(though you can probably throw in the occasional pit bull thread and such). But what I saw yesterday in H&M went beyond all reason. Gravedancing for a long time member of this community, flamewars whose only purpose was to build the bonfire as big as possible. Backbiting, sniping, personal call outs, the full range and scope of bad behavior that one could ever find on the net. Even Free Republic, with all of its hate, doesn't have such a sustained amount of bile and hate as is contained in H&M.

People, really? Is this what we've degenerated into, a forum full anger and hate? I know, I know, I don't have to enter that forum(unless I have a technical question), I can simply ignore those threads, and if it were just that simple, I wouldn't be here right now with this thread. But it isn't that simple.

DU has, over the years, become a community of 150,000 some odd souls, and actually does have enough influence to impact the real world out there. Professionals, ranging the spectrum from Limbaugh to O'Donnell make references to this site, read from this site. Skinner is interviewed by top tier newsfolks, in short, there are people who are taking us seriously, who pay attention to what we do. Now how does it look when we've got an entire forum that looks like it is nothing but a Fight Club? Like we're a group who should be taken seriously? I think not.

Possibly even worse is how such a cesspool of a forum is impacting DU's general health and growth. The other day, over in GD, a current member had gone and taken a photo of a nice lady, posted it and stated that the nice lady(hi nicelady) was looking to join up, and would be around shortly to check the joint out. "OK, let's see, Latest News, check, GD, interesting, Lounge, cute, and OMG, what is that stench coming from H&M! Sulfur and roasted flesh? I think I will find somewhere else on the net to reside." And so it goes, and so it goes.

Finally, what is most insidious is that this toxic mess is starting to spill out of H&M. Starting to see posts and threads moaning about a jury decision show up in GD. Starting to see the backbiting personal attacks show up in threads throughout all the big forums. In short, whatever contagion has gripped H&M is now starting to spread to the rest of DU. If that happens, then we can kiss this place goodbye, DU, a fine place for ten plus years, that sadly went down in flames.

So what is the solution for this problem? A tighter reign on what goes on in H&M? Do away with H&M altogether in favor of a return to Ask the Administrators? I don't know, either of those seems viable. But what I do know is that we need to find a solution quick, otherwise this entire forum could fold. I've been around long enough to know that election seasons bring out the worst in people around here, and the flamewars will blaze high. With more and more people hear each year, those flames go ever higher. Now, with a forum full of ready fuel, such as H&M, it could touch off an inferno that would engulf the entire place.

I suggest that we all calm down, take a step back from the mess, calmly discuss what we should do, in a conversation that involves everybody, including Skinner, Elad and EarlG, and come up with a solution that everybody can live with.

Consider this thread to be the first step in that direction.

redqueen
1. You voted to leave a post not on its own merits,

but because of your opinion of the thread.

Interesting reasoning.

LaurenG
5. You might want to consider staying out of here (help and meta)

It's not for the faint of heart or for anyone that takes things personally. If you do decide to stay don an antimicrobial suit and have plenty of gloves and masks so that you don't get anything on you. The stuff here tends to be hard to wash out, it is a great place to decide who your friends are or are not though.

seabeyond
8. a poster, post after post calling one of our women an old man. yes, it would be nice to hide

Last edited Tue May 15, 2012, 06:12 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)
the post as the poster continued to lie about another and call a sock puppet. stop some of the ugly in a thread, so it does not degenerate even further. allow the poster acting poorly the time to reflect.

but you did nothing.

walked away

then complain about the ugly and how it progresses.

this is really pretty interesting seeing how on some of those threads, we are talking about personal responsibility in speaking up against sexism, racism, adn homophobia. and that some of us feel a need to speak out, always. and some have the ability to stay quiet.

you stayed quiet. and then started a thread to complain about the out of control.

fascinating, so if nothing else, thank you for the clarity in understanding.

Quantess
15. I agree with your assessment.

I am going to stay away from H & M for a while because it's just too irritating, and might not be healthy.

The reason why my post was not hidden is because the entire thread is a vile cesspool of condescension and personal insults. You would pretty much have to lock the entire thread, if my post was found to be unacceptable. Half of the comments on that thread are unacceptable.

I don't take back anything I said, but, I am done with this drama. I have better things to do. Have fun with the drama, everyone!

pipi_k
17. An opinion on this

sentence:

"Possibly even worse is how such a cesspool of a forum is impacting DU's general health and growth."

I don't think it's the forum itself that is the problem.

The forum doesn't exist in a vacuum. It reflects how people really feel. What they'll write when they think it's OK to be themselves.

It's really easy for people to hide behind rules and "standards". But open the gates and then see what happens. We get to see who, and what, lots of people really are...even here on DU.

What are the children going to do when the adults aren't watching?

I personally think that what will happen (has probably already started) is that the disrupters and perennial malcontents will eventually weed themselves out by their own actions.

Is that not a good thing for the overall health of DU?

Kaleva
22. H&M is like the gungeon in a way

DU would be a mess if the arguments about so called gun rights weren't generally confined to one group. It sometimes appears in GD but as a rule, it is rather well contained. Same with H&M. In DU2, the mods were damn busy trying to contain the fighting that took place all over DU. Some have said that DU2 was a more civil place but in truth, the anger and resentment some had for others was always just below the surface. It was an enforced civility. Here it is in the open but generally contained in H&M.

FSogol
27. Bullshit!

"Even Free Republic, with all of its hate, doesn't have such a sustained amount of bile and hate as is contained in H&M. " - Total Bullshit.

[Skul]

I thought it was the MEnTAl Help and discussion forum. 

[miskie]

Help & Meta should have its name changed to 4chan Underground. And be done with it. 4U has a nice ring to it anyway..

[Big Dog]

seabeyond
8. a poster, post after post calling one of our women an old man. yes, it would be nice to hide

Last edited Tue May 15, 2012, 06:12 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)
the post as the poster continued to lie about another and call a sock puppet. stop some of the ugly in a thread, so it does not degenerate even further. allow the poster acting poorly the time to reflect.

but you did nothing.

walked away

then complain about the ugly and how it progresses.

this is really pretty interesting seeing how on some of those threads, we are talking about personal responsibility in speaking up against sexism, racism, adn homophobia. and that some of us feel a need to speak out, always. and some have the ability to stay quiet.

you stayed quiet. and then started a thread to complain about the out of control.

fascinating, so if nothing else, thank you for the clarity in understanding.

Shut up and make me a sammich, woman.

Then get me another beer and rub my feet.

Then, maybe, if you ask real nice, I'll let ya blow me.

[Ralph Wiggum]

150,000 posters.....   We need a DUmp Diver update. I'm sure it is humming along at a few thousand at the very most.

[Chris_]

People, really? Is this what we've degenerated into, a forum full anger and hate?

DU started out as a forum full of anger and hate.  The DUmmies have merely refined and distilled it to its purest form.

[Ballygrl]

Shut up and make me a sammich, woman.

Then get me another beer and rub my feet.

Then, maybe, if you ask real nice, I'll let ya blow me.

OMG!

<<<<< I guess I must be a submissive conservative woman because I find that .

[Ogre]

Shut up and make me a sammich, woman.

Then get me another beer and rub my feet.

Then, maybe, if you ask real nice, I'll let ya blow me.

Whoa, let a DUmmie down there? 

I'd rather have a Cobra attempt it than one of them DUmpthings.