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Offline franksolich

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primitives discuss bringing up baby
« on: May 13, 2012, 06:11:36 PM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/116083

Oh my.

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

What's the DU consensus on being absolutely silent while a baby sleeps during the day?

I'm an uncle living with my brother, his wife and a 10 month old baby whom I love to death.

Lately my brother's wife has been stressing that everyone and our two dogs be absolutely, perfectly silent every minute the baby is sleeping. I don't have a problem maintaining silence (though I don't like it much because it stresses everyone out), but the dogs can't help walking on the hardwood floors, and occasionally I have to go to the bathroom. You know, normal daily stuff that tends to make a bit of a sound. Today she threatened that the dogs have to leave (because of the walking, neither of them bark at all), and I started to think about the issue in more detail, because I'm not getting rid of my dog because she walks.

It seems to me that total, absolute silence while a baby is napping could lead to serious sleeping problems. My quick research seems to confirm it. Most people say it is far better to go about your normal daily routine and not worry about making reasonable noise. Don't blast heavy metal music, but feel free to vacuum the floor, watch TV and talk at a normal level. This makes perfect sense.

I talked to my brother about it, and he kind of agreed, but he is also defending his wife's wishes. I felt bad presenting my opinion.

Any advice?

My advice for the primitive is that he stop freeloading off his brother and sister-in-law, and go out and rent a place of his own.

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seabeyond (71,540 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

1. i am all for it. my oldest slept poorly. woke easily. was hell if he didnt get enough sleep

didnt sleep thru noise. he is still a lousy sleeper but not grumpy. i am all for absolute silence. lol. so i could have as long as a break as the baby could give me.

just

do it.

then you reduce her stress.

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

3. Do you think it would be handy if you could do housework while the baby sleeps?

People are saying that it only takes a few days to train a baby to sleep through routine noise, and it helps them sleep better for their entire life.

You know, I really don't know, myself.

When franksolich was an infant, noise bothered him not at all; slept right through it.

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seabeyond (71,540 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

4. my oldest was a different baby. my youngest was way in back of house and it wasnt an issue

i say good for the father for respecting what the mom wants. that is good enough for me. regardless. i have one child that lays down and is asleep in minutes and sleeps thru night. and one that is still up in the middle of the night reading.

i have always had quiet environments for them to sleep.

i doubt my mom did anything in particular with me, two a year older each. and i cant sleep with noise and am up until late. i get little sleep.

it is the moms to figure out. truly. i probably would not listen to others on this particular issue. and i read a lot, listened a lot and valued what people said.

but this, i would leave to whoever knows the baby the best.

and if it helps mom to not be angry, then i really believe you respect what she is saying.

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

8. I respect your opinion, but completely disagree.

Deep sleep is EXTREMELY important for good health. If she keeps this up the kid will never be able to sleep without total silence (which simply doesn't exist outside of this house). The dog walking thing isn't even a loud noise, I doubt the baby can even hear it. He wakes up maybe one out of a hundred times. I'm constantly on my tippy toes.

I'm a middle child so I'm sure I slept through lots of loud noise. I've been a heavy sleeper ever since.

Probably sleeping heavily on the couch during the day, when the primitive really should be out looking for a job and scouting around for his own place to live.

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seabeyond (71,540 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

13. the baby is 10 months old. it is only recently that she is getting frustrated with this.

making a greater demand for quiet. something is up, somewhere. that baby is being woken before its time, or other things are frustrating her and this is where she is taking it out instead of discussing the real issue.

i perused articles. every article says quiet, cool, dark environment for sleep. yes, regular noise around the house is ok, as long as they are quiet. a flushed toilet by the room can be the one to trigger awake, but reality, we have to use the bathroom.

but something is up somewhere. i would be into finding out what is truly stressing her. or pay attention if the baby isnt getting the environment for the structured, consistent naps.

the baby sleeps at NIGHT in a QUIET house. we are not concerned that is going to screw up the ability to sleep the rest of the babies life. no one is making noise at night and it is a much longer period of sleep. so it makes absolutely no sense at all to suggest a quiet environment for naptime is unhealthy.

with consistent, adequate naps, the baby will go down easier for a long sleep at night. it is important. if a baby does not get enough sleep in the day, is overtired, is over stimulated and fussy by bedtime, it does not result in a child that conks out for the night. the opposite. the baby has a poor night of sleep.

What's probably truly stressing the mother is that her husband's brother's freeloading off them.

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cyberswede (3,715 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

2. Babies need to get used to noise

Not a brass band or anything, but kids should learn to sleep despite regular household noises, imo.

I got this theory from my mother - she had 8 kids - impossible to keep everyone quiet all the time.

On edit: I probably would avoid vacuuming, though.

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leftyohiolib (1,068 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

9. unrealistic request this must be her first, baby that is

but she'll get her way so unless you want to live in the garage probably should let yourbrother handle it or you can spend the rest of life catering to all her ridiculous requests. the baby will adapt and get used to the noise in the day it will also encourage the baby to get off the nocturnal schedule their born with and sleep more at night.

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

10. Yep, first kid..

And when I talked to my brother I made it clear that it's only MY opinion and that it's not anything near an ultimatum. I'm not stupid.

Yeah, the primitive's not stupid.

The primitive doesn't want to be kicked out of the house, and have to pay his own way through life.

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Tumbulu (2,123 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

20. not all babies adapt- mine never did, each is different

do what mom says. If the baby does not get it's sleep, it becomes a nightmare for the mom. The baby is only 10 months old, it is still very young. And all babies cannot be forced to sleep through noise. Some can some can't.

I do not think disparaging a mom is at all helpful. Mom's need to be supported.

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mzteris (15,329 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

12. oh dear

what a problem she's fomenting.

Has anyone asked her WHY she thinks this is necessary? Has anyone given her a copy of Dr. Spock?

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

14. My brother said she gets upset when he wakes up and cries, which I assume is motherly instinct.

When I babysit and put him to sleep sometimes he'll wake up and cry for a minute or two, then do some baby talk for awhile and fall back asleep. I have no parental instincts.

I should note that she is a recent immigrant from Vietnam, which might be a factor culturally. She is stubborn and set in her ways, and tends to get angry when given friendly advice (that's why I talked to my brother). I wish that wasn't the case, but it just is.

I suggested that my brother re-read his baby book's section on sleep, since the Internet is pretty much unanimous on the subject. I have no idea if or how he'll manage to relay the information to his wife.

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mzteris (15,329 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

16. a few more questions

1. How is this baby?
2. How old is the mother?
3. How much help is she getting with the baby? What's her "support system" like? (Not just for child care, but HER care. . . as in
4. does she have friends?)
5. How well does she speak English?
6. Does her husband speak her language?
7. Could it be her excuse to "not do anything" while the baby is sleeping. Telling her it's more than OK to take a nap when the baby does might help her.

Sorry - I get all know-it-all-and preachy sometimes. I don't mean to, though. I'm really just trying to help. (I think it's that Motherly instinct! )

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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

17. .

1. How is this baby?

Perfect, IMO. Happy. Smiles a lot. She obviously loves him.

2. How old is the mother?

Mid 20's. Pretty young.

3. How much help is she getting with the baby? What's her "support system" like? (Not just for child care, but HER care. . . as in

Plenty. No day care, lots of baby sitters available. 99% of the time at least one parent is home. IMO she should quit her part time job, but that's not my call.

4. does she have friends?)

One friend. Also with a newborn.

5. How well does she speak English?

Well enough to understand everything she says.

6. Does her husband speak her language?

No.

7. Could it be her excuse to "not do anything" while the baby is sleeping. Telling her it's more than OK to take a nap when the baby does might help her.

Good point. I wouldn't doubt it. She seems to only clean/cook when the baby is up. She usually hits the couch while he's sleeping.

She's definitely a tough nut to crack. VERY sensitive.

Probably has a part-time job because she's got to help support her husband's freeloading brother.

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Tumbulu (2,123 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

22. when the baby sleeps, mom is supposed to be sleeping too and that means naps.

Being a mom is huge and mom's need rest. Period.

What do you mean "no day care" does that mean that she is caring for the baby herself all day? Then she needs a break and naptime is her time to rest, too.

Of course she is only going to do noisy things like cleaning when the baby is up- she should not be disturbing it either.

Listen, lots of people think that it should be very quiet during naptime. Can go somewhere else- take the dogs for a walk?

I am glad that your brother is standing up for her. It is not unreasonable and it is fairly customary for mom's to want total silence while babies and even toddlers nap. In fact I know of no one who does not demand total quiet once they finally get the baby to sleep.

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Tumbulu (2,123 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

25. I'm a mom to a auditory sensitive 10 yr old

everything used to wake her up- and it was too much when I had just gotten her to sleep and then some stupid loud noise would awaken her and then hours of crying and then she would get so overwrought that she could not get to sleep at night.....

The trait comes from me- I am undone by loud sounds....grew up in the suburbs and became a farmer- I just cannot handle town and city noises very often. I was exposed to lots of sounds, second to youngest in a very loud big happy family- but that did not ever accustom me to them. I had to find a way as an adult to survive and thrive with my traits.

Children do become capable of adaptation, but it is completely normal for a mom of a baby of that age to want the baby to not get waked up. Especially in many traditional cultures. My own grandmother- mother to 10 from Europe- insisted on no alarm clocks and no sounds to wake up any of her children- ever. She said that when the baby and or child sleeps its brain grows. This is actually true- neuroscientists say.

My daughter has been playing at a friend's house with a 4 yr old younger brother who still naps and EVERYONE has to talk in whispers or go outside. Simply no noise in the house still, the doorbell gets turned off, etc.

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YellowRubberDuckie (19,303 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

27. My parents were alcoholics.

They'd put us to bed, then blare the console record player in the living room. We just slept away the entire time. While I don't like their choices they made while I was a kid, I do agree that kids should get used to sleeping with noise.

Of course, my mom drank beer, smoked and breast fed me at the same time, so there was a good reason I was sleeping...

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Robb (34,665 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

30. I'm late to this one. But the answer is easy.

Whatever mom wants.

Seriously, the baby will either sleep through noise or not. There's no real "training" except they get older and change one way or another anyhow.

In the meantime, mom stresses out at the notion of spending another half-hour trying to get the baby back to sleep -- to say nothing of another half-hour-plus she doesn't get to sleep. Rested parents are better parents.

Nutshell: do whatever it takes to keep mom happy. If mom ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

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alphafemale (12,167 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

31. I think you should be able to carry on reasonably normal activities.

But if your living in their house I doubt your opinion counts for much.

The second or any later children certainly won't have a silent house during nap time. That's pretty much a given.

My first was a bit of a light sleeper at first. I found that some white noise like a radio set off station or a fan helped. She eventually learned to settle back down to sleep even if she did wake up.

I think she's hindering the kids future sleep abilities. And most environments are not silent. Not even at night.
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Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »
I think it would depend on the baby's sleep habits during the night.  What if the baby gets horrible sleep at night and the mom is just stressed out and wants some quiet time in HER home?  My daughter was a horrible sleeper.  I didn't want any noise during naps.  Definitely no vacuum cleaning.  If I heard UPS or FedEx coming up the stairs, I'd open the door before they even had a chance to knock or ring the door bell.  Call me crazy, but I just wanted my baby to sleep.

Or, maybe, the wife just doesn't want the moocher around... take a hint, DUmmie.  Just give her some motherly advice... I dare you.  :)
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Offline Delmar

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2012, 06:48:41 PM »
The tension in this house has very little to do with the baby getting sleep and everything to do with the wife having to put up with the freeloading brother-in-law and his mangy dogs.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2012, 06:54:47 PM »
I think it would depend on the baby's sleep habits during the night.  What if the baby gets horrible sleep at night and the mom is just stressed out and wants some quiet time in HER home?  My daughter was a horrible sleeper.  I didn't want any noise during naps.  Definitely no vacuum cleaning.  If I heard UPS or FedEx coming up the stairs, I'd open the door before they even had a chance to knock or ring the door bell.  Call me crazy, but I just wanted my baby to sleep.

Or, maybe, the wife just doesn't want the moocher around... take a hint, DUmmie.  Just give her some motherly advice... I dare you.  :)

I am thinking mom is desperate for some time also - baby is sleeping, she has down time.   

Why is he living with them anyway?


Offline BEG

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 07:31:29 PM »
It's you DUmmie, she wants you out and doesn't know how to say it so she uses the baby excuse.

Offline Celtic Rose

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 09:06:10 PM »
It's you DUmmie, she wants you out and doesn't know how to say it so she uses the baby excuse.

That is very likely the case.  As a recent immigrant with little support (presumably) other than her husband she may not feel comfortable telling him to leave. 

Quite simply, most babies don't nap more than a few hours a day.  If it is really that difficult for him and his dogs to be quiet they can leave the house during nap time.  Long walks are good for your health.  Also, if he is home all day, I assume that he is unemployed, especially since he is living with a relative.  Perfect time to sit outside a local cafe with the dogs and send out his resume. 

Mama gets to make the rules about nap time.  I get woken up in the middle of the night by sirens, everybody has different levels of noise that they can sleep through. 

Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2012, 10:49:21 PM »
I love the word "freeloader". It is so descriptive, and also reminds me of the Red Skelton character "Freddie the Freeloader".
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Offline Chris_

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2012, 10:50:44 PM »
I love the word "freeloader". It is so descriptive, and also reminds me of the Red Skelton character "Freddie the Freeloader".
When I worked for Ford Motor Co., the office jokester used to tell us there was a new model coming out, the Ford Freeloader.  The glove box was big enough for a load of bread and a handful of dollar bills.
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 10:55:56 PM »
When I worked for Ford Motor Co., the office jokester used to tell us there was a new model coming out, the Ford Freeloader.  The glove box was big enough for a load of bread and a handful of dollar bills.
Now that's good stuff right there !
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Offline jukin

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 10:21:56 AM »
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tridim (39,198 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

10. Yep, first kid..

And when I talked to my brother I made it clear that it's only MY opinion and that it's not anything near an ultimatum. I'm not stupid.

Like politicians, you know it is true when they deny it.

One solution that would fix everything is to quit mooching of your brother and his wife by moving the **** out. Bet this DUche is a OWS minion and feels someone should be serving him because he so special. Since the new mother is an immigrant there is zero tolerance for free loaders. I wouldn't be surprised that the brother is having fights over the moocher. Just what a new mother needs TWO babies in the house.
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Offline Aristotelian

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 01:58:04 PM »
Mama gets to make the rules about nap time.

That sums it up.

As a besotted uncle (albeit one who doesn't scrounge off either sister's hospitality) I'm more than happy to do pretty much anything to help with any out of my nephew or two nieces...but I follow the rules given by their mother.

Offline Gina

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 02:34:07 PM »
The tension in this house has very little to do with the baby getting sleep and everything to do with the wife having to put up with the freeloading brother-in-law and his mangy dogs.

EXACTFRIGGINTACTLY......go get a damn job and take your mutts with you.






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Offline vesta111

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 06:34:03 AM »
EXACTFRIGGINTACTLY......go get a damn job and take your mutts with you.

HMMMMMMMM.

The mother comes from an Asian Culture that expects family to live with them.   Generations of grandparents, parents and young siblings.    A cycle of life, when parents are too old to work they move in with their children and raise their baby's so their children can work and support them in their old age.    The baby's seldom have a stranger care for them with all the relatives around.

A good system that insures the grand or great grand parents be around to teach the baby's the religion, culture, and history of their family.  The kids learn from the parents of their parents the arts and crafts of their heritage, much like we today look back on Grandpa teaching us to fish and hunt wood work or any skill they developed in their youth

Grandma shows the girls how to sew, cook, clean and how to help them with any new baby's in the family.    With parents busting ass at working 18 hours a day, their children know that down the road it will be up to them to continue the cycle and care for their parents and siblings baby's when the time comes.

Difficult for this culture to understand the ways,  where a man and a woman marry, go off to live by themselves, have a child and to support the child turn the child over to strangers who just feed and watch their child with no link to the family past.  Our ways are totally abnormal to some Cultures.

This poor woman has no link to her past, few that speak her language, no support group, just a stranger in a strange land. This must be very lonely and scared for her with a new born living in a Culture so unlike her own. 

She has learned English to survive but  her husband and his brother choose to not bother to learn her language or Culture.  Both seem to just expect her to SNAP to it and somehow morph into a woman that is like woman born and raised in this country.

The BIL may have a job and contribute to the family and just not understand the fact that when one moves into anothers home they are subject to the rules of the house, by tradition the home is under the womans control Especially when she has children.

The woman and mother may not understand that even if BIL is paying his way that he feels that he has any say in how she runs her home.------Could this be a male ego power play between brothers, could there be some hidden Lust on the part of the BIL ????

Yupo BTDT, BIL lived with us for 14 years, worked very hard at his job but had a learning problem at 55, still could not read or write, could not drive and had to depend on everyone else to get him to the doctors or stores.  I fixed that .

Offline Gina

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 06:56:02 AM »
They say everytime one exerts alot of energy to write some long ass post no one will end up reading.......they lose 5 years.....






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Offline vesta111

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 07:04:20 AM »
Within 18 months I had rallied round my family to help with this BIL who had for most of his life been looked after by family and others that just excepted him as he was, allowed him to live with them for 3/4 his paycheck but never once tried to get him independent.   Lots of moans and groans from every one that had to find him a ride back and forth to work, take a day off from work to get him to a doctors appointment, all extras cost the poor man.

This man is smart, not in the normal ways, he could figure out how to wire up a CB, fix small mechanical things from toasters to out board engines.  

So here he came to us, I pitched a hissie fit when he said he had a doctors appointment and wanted my Mother in the next state [ age at that time 80,] to pick him up in her car, wait for him for a hour or so, stop at the Pharmacy for new medication then bring him home.  Why not get a Cab, oh that might cost $16.00  he wanted to give My Mom $5.00 for gas to drive into our state, wait for him, make a stop over for his medication then have to drive back home for gas money.

When I suggested he pay her $40.00 for her time and trouble he went bonkers.  NO way, he would just cancel the doctors appointment and go without his needed medication and when he dropped dead it would be our fault.

That is when I went on the offencive.


Offline vesta111

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 07:32:04 AM »
Offensive big time, we had as every one in his 55 years had been handling his bills----we quit that shit. 

We marched him down to the bank and insisted he get a checking account, the man could sign his name at least.  Then we sat him down and on 3x5 cards wrote out what he had to copy to pay a bill, showed him where the payment due was on the bill and if it was $60.00 then he just had to look down the card to see that $60.00 was to be copied as --Sixty Dollars.  Took him about a week to catch on.

Next thing I lied to the poor man and told him new laws were in place, he had to have a drivers license to operate his boat.    Me and my family jumped in here, first since he could operate a boat, why not a car.   So he bought a car, got a learners permit and my kids schooled him on the rules of the road.  after a few months they took him down to take a verbal test, he flunked that one but passed the next one.

How Proud he was to now be independent for first time in his life.  He traded in his car for a nice truck and did not have to depend on anyone again.    We noticed he was learning to read street signs and highway signs , now he recognised the name of a bank or creditor that sent him his monthly bills.

It was not that we were Proud of him, he had the making in him all the time, we were proud of us that had brought it out.

Offline Kyle Ricky

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 07:39:42 AM »
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me that a liberal actually had their baby instead of aborting it? Wow, stop the presses!

Offline vesta111

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 08:15:48 AM »
No such thing as they lived happly after
 for anyone of us.  

After 14 years BIL now independent needed a heart pace maker and had to go on SS disability.  
He had saved his money well, living with us had family at his beck and call.

Along comes a woman that convinced him that he would be better off with her, she half his age, and we came home from work to find everything of his and a good part of ours cleaned out.   No Good By, thank you or kiss my ass, just house keys on the table.

Family had to rescue him 12 states away as this woman had cleaned him out, taken his credit cards, maxed them out, stolen from his bank account every last penny he had, even stolen his beloved truck.   Yes there are 2 warrents out for her but each year she does not get caught means the limit's of her crime are expiring.  

Where is this broken old man today, living with his 70 year old sister in a 2 bedroom apartment.

 Problem here is his family that blames all this on us, they second generation Italians.   Why did we interfear with this man and make him independent at his age. Why did we not just except him as is and put him in danger ? Hell of a mess, and it is all our fault.

Gina I guess this is much like a Dear Diary input, just a slice of human life that goes on in every family one way or the other. No one really expects others to read their Diary, just hope that someone will come across it and be able to relate to the writer.

I love you Gina, would have loved to have know you in my youth.  I apologise if my rants or raves disturb you, actually getting this down is to take a cinder block off my chest and clear the hidden stress from me. [ and anger that has built up for years].

    


Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 10:50:39 AM »
They say everytime one exerts alot of energy to write some long ass post no one will end up reading.......they lose 5 years.....
On this point, if only "they" were right !
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline Gina

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 02:24:48 PM »
On this point, if only "they" were right !

not much time left for vesta  :rofl:






"An army of deer led by a lion is more to be feared than an army of lions led by a deer." Phillip of Macedonia, father to Alexander.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2012, 04:01:08 PM »
not much time left for vesta  :rofl:
Is there such thing as a posting purgatory ?
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 07:46:03 PM »
They say everytime one exerts alot of energy to write some long ass post no one will end up reading.......they lose 5 years.....

I tend to scroll past it.
You may call me Jessica or Jess.

Offline USA4ME

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 07:53:49 PM »
Quote from:
tridim

I'm not stupid.

I've read your political opinions, and yes you are.

.
Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.

Offline vesta111

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Re: primitives discuss bringing up baby
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 04:43:22 AM »
not much time left for vesta  :rofl:

 :rotf: :tongue:

I love a challenge Gina, unfortunately if Obama gets reelected I feel there will not be much time for any of us.

Come November, if Obama looses he still has a couple months left to hog tie Mitt and make it next to impossible to undo what Obama can and will do.

If Obama wins, he has nothing to loose, he will unleash the Lords of War on America and  run up the Pirate Flag.    

So, I  imagine it will be about the only thing to stop me from venting on any site on the internet, as was in Russia, all typewriters, and computers, radio, TV stations, and newspapers will be censored, licensed and any bitch against the government will be considered an act of potential terrorism.  [we cannot call Treason on ilegal alians now can we?]

Best to get venting on anything personal or political in the next few months.

 Mom comes from a generation that to this day refuses to discuss politics on the telephone still tells me to be careful what I say, she lived through the years of political terror of the 1950's.  

So If the loved ones those we trust will do bad to us, what will a stranger or best friend do for their own benefit.

Just venting while I have the time to do so.  I just may out live the Free America and  find I am back where it all started and understand why my ancestors left their " HOME" country to come here.  

Conservatives work their lives for the future of their children and future descendants.

Liberals work just for themselves and their own immedate needs and desires.