Author Topic: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not  (Read 2193 times)

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« on: May 04, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »
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GliderGuider (12,885 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

What If A Collapse Happened And Nobody Noticed?

What If A Collapse Happened And Nobody Noticed?

Every once and awhile I'll be listening to a podcast with one or the other writers specializing on the subject of Peak Oil or collapse and the subject of timetables will come up. When will the collapse finally be here, the callers ask insistently, almost pleadingly, so that they can finally justify their investments in freeze-dried foods, water purification tablets and solid gold coins. Inevitably the guest will demur, and speak more in general terms. But I'm going to be the first pundit to go out on the limb and assign a timeline for the collapse. Spread it far and wide, and let's see just how good my predictive powers are. Are you ready? Here it is: Right now.

What do they think a collapse is supposed to look like? It seems people just cannot just cannot get past the "Zombie Apocalypse" theory of collapse. They imagine hordes of disease-ridden folks dressed in rags stumbling around and fighting over cans of petrol and stripping cans of food from shelves. That's not what collapse looks like. It never has been. In fact, there's very little evidence that a Zombie Apocalypse style collapse ever occurred in the historical record. Instead we see subtle patterns of abandonment and decay that unfold over long periods of time. Big projects stop. Population thins. Trade routes shrink and people revert to barter. Things get simpler and more local. Culture coarsens. High art stagnates. People disperse. Expectations are adjusted downward. Investments are no longer made in the future and previous investments are cannibalized just to maintain the status quo. Extend and pretend is hardly a recent invention.

And I remembered a comment I heard from Dmitry Orlov in an interview about how much of his high school class were now dead. Yet there were no headlines and there was never any official crisis or emergency. They did not die in gunfights over scraps of food like in The Road. Rather, more quotidian things like alcoholism, unemployment, suicide, homelessness, exposure, lack of medications and ordinary sicknesses like bronchitis and pneumonia took their lives. Russia's life expectancy fell dramatically. It's birth rate declined. Public health fell apart. Suicide rates went up. The population shrank. Entire towns became abandoned. In post-collapse Russia there was a slow die-off that occurred outside of the daily headlines that no one seemed to notice. They were ground down slowly by day-to-day reduction in the standard of living, a million little tragedies that, like pixels in an image, looked like nothing until the focus was pulled back.

And right now the entire continent of Europe is looking an awful lot like post-collapse Russia.

So the collapse is already upon us.

Well, that's not so bad then.

I guess we don't have to spend stupid amounts of cash now.

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adigal (4,009 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

13. Yet the Repubs want to argue about birth control

Just unreal.

I do think there are certain truths in what is written above. Certain parts of our civilizations have collapsed already, as shown by the suicides, deaths from preventive illnesses. Bartering and buying locally are actually good solutions. More people should do this.

It's our fault you stuck your nose in Church business? have you tried butting-out?

And what's with this mania for only buying locally? What do liberals have against people in cities getting fresh fruit and vegetables?

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GliderGuider (12,885 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

3. One other ominous sign (oddly enough) is the falling global birth rate.

Last edited Thu May 3, 2012, 07:46 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

I know that demographers and overpopulation-watchers like to celebrate that development - me among them. However, it may actually be a sign that more and more people are deciding that the future just doesn't look so bright any more.

This is what a collapse really looks like: The poorest and most vulnerable die first, out of sight, and everyone else just does what they can to survive. Peoples' priorities change: they concentrate on getting by from day-to-day rather than planning for the future. They stop getting married. They have less children or none at all. They live for today. They work harder for less. Taxes go up even as basic services are cut. Long term unemployment has been conclusively linked to greater mortality and susceptibility to illness, physical and mental. Would many of these people not still be alive today if were not for austerity measures and declining middle class opportunity? Isn't that a die-off? It's been said that having children is a referendum on the future. Based on global birth rates, I think the human race is collectively registering a vote of "no confidence."

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cbdo2007 (5,569 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

4. Yet none of us will see major effects of the collapse in our lifetimes.

It could easily still be hundreds of years away before we get to a point where it's the old west again. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, I definitely think the world and the United States are on a downward trend but it's not going to be like some hollywood movie, it will be a slow progression down from the top.

Hundreds of years, huh?

For a creed that denies all religion they have this odd penchant for obligating us to generations whose grand-parents aren't yet born.

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Fumesucker (24,931 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

14. Efficiency is but a secondary effect, the primary cause is greed and profit..

The resiliency of civilization has been stripped out for greed and profit, efficiency is only one of a number of tools in that quest.

No. It's me refusing to starve my children to feed your lazy, dope-smoking, fat ass.

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adigal (4,009 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

16. I read the article and the author asserts that cities will fare the best

and rural areas will suffer the most. I see this already. I live in upstate NY, in a rural area, and we are defunding everything: schools, social services, a very good system of health clinics and the citizens are the ones joyfully defunding them. There is a lot of poverty here already. My family, who live in a NYC suburb, don't see the poor and suffering, as I do here. They think everything is honky-dory.

more like politicians using welfare to prop-up larger voting blocs.

And then there's this:

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leveymg (21,776 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

19. Inside the Vortex, life and death for the Brutals doesn't matter.

Last edited Thu May 3, 2012, 09:39 AM USA/ET - Edit history (6)

Zardoz (1974) is sometimes dismissed as a vehicle for an aging Sean Connery to display acres of chest hair in skimpy red leather outfits amidst some standard sci-fi fixtures, including the usual total social breakdown, slavery and ultra-violence. But, it's portrayal of life for the elite One Percenters inside their crystal gated communities is extraordinary and spot-on.

The dwellers in the Vortex are totally dependent upon the forced labor of the outside "savages," and a caste of paramilitary overseers, "brutals" who enforce the delivery of food to a giant flying head, "Zardoz", which dispenses arms to the Brutals in return. Zardoz can be viewed, depending upon ones own ideology, as the Politburo or as Lockheed Martin Corporation with the Brutals playing the Red Army, the NYPD, Pizza Hut Delivery, or all tied together on horseback in dyed leather. 

Lacking any real care or responsibility for themselves or the larger outside world, all the maladies of celebrity have befallen the beautiful people of the Vortex who never age, unless as punishment. They can read each others' minds, so they have no privacy, they have no incentive to do anything except plot against each other, so those who aren't involved in petty politics and psychological games, are totally apathetic. For all their learning, and the seemless, omnipotent artificial intelligence that keeps the Vortex running, they have no real interest in anything but their own status and comforts in their English Manors.

In the end, the more energetic among them simply speed their own demise by opening the Vortex to Sean Connery's muscular kinsmen, who proceed to shoot everyone inside and smash the crockery. Connery rides off to a cave with revolutionary-in-chief Charlotte Rampling and starts the whole cursed cycle of civilization all over again. 

And on it goes.

Do you libs know why you will not survive a minor disruption, let alone a major collapse?

Because you do not deserve to. You provide nothing for yourselves. You despise independence and you make a disgrace of all the lessons of those who have over the course of history prevailed over circumstances far worse than ours. You despise the lessons of history, hence the name "Progressive". You launch forward without care of where you have been or in what direction you go.

You're worthless, useless sucklings.

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Offline Skul

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 12:34:24 PM »
I see nothing progessive about regressing back to a fuedal society where the lord of the white castle takes what he wants.
Then-Chief Justice John Marshall observed, “Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos.”

John Adams warned in a letter, “Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.”

Offline obumazombie

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 12:35:41 PM »
I see nothing progessive about regressing back to a fuedal society where the lord of the white castle takes what he wants.
We would have to get good at shouting "Help help I'm being represessed" !
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 01:48:55 PM »
I see nothing progessive about regressing back to a fuedal society where the lord of the white castle takes what he wants.

I've got guns so I'll be the "lord".
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 02:32:40 PM »
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adigal (4,009 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

16. I read the article and the author asserts that cities will fare the best

and rural areas will suffer the most. I see this already. I live in upstate NY, in a rural area, and we are defunding everything: schools, social services, a very good system of health clinics and the citizens are the ones joyfully defunding them. There is a lot of poverty here already. My family, who live in a NYC suburb, don't see the poor and suffering, as I do here. They think everything is honky-dory.

Holy shit!!! Do these morons actually believe this shit? Where do they think the beef, vegetables and bread is grown, the ****in' grocery store?

Lord, give me strength!
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 03:04:55 PM »
Holy shit!!! Do these morons actually believe this shit? Where do they think the beef, vegetables and bread is grown, the ****in' grocery store?

Lord, give me strength!

Anybody know where this primitive lives?  I could find out rather quickly about this primitive's claims . . . at work, that is.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 04:20:18 PM »
From another thread but referencing the OP:

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chervilant (2,957 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

Thoughts on the Evolution of Our Species.

Following is my response to GliderGuider's "What If A Collapse Happened And Nobody Noticed?" (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002639524); posted herewith per requests:

I am 56 years old. I read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring when I was 12 years old. When I finished her iconic treatise, I made two fundamental decisions: 1) I would not bear children, and 2) I would be an activist for the rest of my life. I am so glad that I achieved both those goals, especially considering where humanity finds itself at present...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002642163

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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 05:09:06 PM »
Snugs, I think that you'd agree with the sentiment shown here:

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chervilant (2,957 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

Assorted keyboard flatulance . . .

1) I would not bear children

Thank You, God! :yahoo: O-) :-)
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk!" -Ayn Rand
 
"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

"These anti-gun fools are more dangerous to liberty than street criminals or foreign spies."--Theodore Haas, Dachau Survivor

Chase her.
Chase her even when she's yours.
That's the only way you'll be assured to never lose her.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 09:30:29 PM »
Holy shit!!! Do these morons actually believe this shit? Where do they think the beef, vegetables and bread is grown, the ****in' grocery store?

Lord, give me strength!

In the early days of the Soviet Union, the secret police swarmed out from the cities to confiscate livestock and crops from the farmers in order to feed the people in the cities.  The Soviet rural population was unarmed and accustomed to being screwed out of everything by a government in which they had no faith, but this was a new low even for a Russian government.

The results would probably be somewhat different in the US.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 09:48:37 PM by DumbAss Tanker »
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Offline Skul

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 09:44:46 PM »
In the early days of the Soviet Union, the secret police swarmed out from the cities to confiscate livestock and crops from the farmers in order to feed the people in the cities.  The Soviet rule population was unarmed and accustomed to being screwed out of everything by a government in which they had no faith, but this was a new low even for a Russian government.

The results would probably be somewhat different in the US.
Gee whiz, I wonder why that would be.  :whatever:

I'd like to buy a "2", Alex.
Then-Chief Justice John Marshall observed, “Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos.”

John Adams warned in a letter, “Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet, that did not commit suicide.”

Offline obumazombie

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 10:00:54 PM »
The book "Silent Spring" is responsible for more 3rd world deaths than any other save the world movement.
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Offline FlippyDoo

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 10:39:21 PM »
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chervilant (2,957 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

Thoughts on the Evolution of Our Species.

Following is my response to GliderGuider's "What If A Collapse Happened And Nobody Noticed?" (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002639524); posted herewith per requests:

I am 56 years old. I read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring when I was 12 years old. When I finished her iconic treatise, I made two fundamental decisions: 1) I would not bear children, and 2) I would be an activist for the rest of my life. I am so glad that I achieved both those goals, especially considering where humanity finds itself at present...

I've never noticed this particular primitive before; however, based on other primitives I think the below may be a good translation of the above:
I'm so bitter and ugly inside that not even stevenumbers will attempt to procreate with me and my inside ugliness and bitterness makes me glad.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 06:50:08 AM »
The book "Silent Spring" is responsible for more 3rd world deaths than any other save the world movement.

You're aware that sometime during the second term of George Bush, the United Nations came out with a report alleging (but not in these exact words) that the envirowackos were the greatest Mass Murderers of the 20th century, exceeding even Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler in the blood they shed.

Because they banned DDT, tens of millions worldwide died of malaria.

I dunno why the mainstream news media didn't bother with this story.....
apres moi, le deluge

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Offline vesta111

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 07:58:07 AM »
You're aware that sometime during the second term of George Bush, the United Nations came out with a report alleging (but not in these exact words) that the envirowackos were the greatest Mass Murderers of the 20th century, exceeding even Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler in the blood they shed.

Because they banned DDT, tens of millions worldwide died of malaria.

I dunno why the mainstream news media didn't bother with this story.....

True and check out the bed bug invasion has hit the biggest most costly Hotels, and darn the new bugs that have invaded our farm fields and to controll even worse chemicals are used.  

I have Kayaked the Rachael Carson preserves up here and find the same birds and coast birds the same as back 30 years ago. No more or less before DDT was removed from the market.

Ask a chicken farmer, some chickens lay very thin eggs , some lay much thicker, depends on the breed, all are fed the same thing, 50 pounds of bagged chicken feed that has the intire front printed with the additives added to the feed.

Song birds are another thing.   When the trees and bushes are taken down for a housing development it may take a couple years for the birds to come back.   Saw this for myself when I rented wooded land for my home and the landlord came in and stripped out every living thing from the ground. For 3 years we had no birds , Crows or song birds until we the renters had to replant the trees the landlord took down.  Birds finally came back but this absence had nothing to do with DDT.  

As a kid living in military housing way back then a notice was put out and fogger trucks came on the streets to manage the mosquito's,   everyone had to stay inside with  windows closed for an hour or so after the trucks went by.
  
DDT most likely, but we never noticed dead birds or an upserge in human deaths or pet deaths.

Living for a few year or two in the Panama canal zone I remember the fogger trucks every 3-4 days, the birds and jungle environment stayed at level, not going down at all.

Still the Parrots of all breeds still flew about, instead of Pigions we had these colorfull birds we fed outside the windows of the apartments.   The foggers did not kill these birds, fun memory's of a child hood.

 Our food and plant life is being ravaged by alien bugs, that we try to kill with chemicals that just do not work.   Upserge in deer tick disease and wild life infected with things not seen in 30 years.

Time to go back and rethink scientifically the DDT, the good and the bad, not just ban this chemical because of a few hysterical authors and old time scientists that were educated 60 years behind our time.



Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 12:18:52 PM »
You're aware that sometime during the second term of George Bush, the United Nations came out with a report alleging (but not in these exact words) that the envirowackos were the greatest Mass Murderers of the 20th century, exceeding even Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler in the blood they shed.

Because they banned DDT, tens of millions worldwide died of malaria.

I dunno why the mainstream news media didn't bother with this story.....
That's because banning a chemical, is always good.

In the democrat world, all industrial chemicals, especially pesticides, fertilizers, herbicides, and anything else derived from petroleum, are always, without exception, bad.

They are as consistent on that as they are on their hatred for anything that smacks of morality.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: DOOOOOOOM!...except it's not
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 12:34:50 PM »
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GliderGuider (12,885 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

3. One other ominous sign (oddly enough) is the falling global birth rate.

Last edited Thu May 3, 2012, 07:46 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

I know that demographers and overpopulation-watchers like to celebrate that development - me among them. However, it may actually be a sign that more and more people are deciding that the future just doesn't look so bright any more.

This is what a collapse really looks like: The poorest and most vulnerable die first, out of sight, and everyone else just does what they can to survive. Peoples' priorities change: they concentrate on getting by from day-to-day rather than planning for the future. They stop getting married. They have less children or none at all. They live for today...

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adigal (4,009 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

13. Yet the Repubs want to argue about birth control

Just unreal.


I do think there are certain truths in what is written above. Certain parts of our civilizations have collapsed already, as shown by the suicides, deaths from preventive illnesses. Bartering and buying locally are actually good solutions. More people should do this.

Do they even see the disconnect?  We are not overpopulating, we are producing fewer children than we need to maintain civilization, and yet they continue to push birth control, abortion, euthanasia...   :thatsright:   :mental:
.
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