Author Topic: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?  (Read 36147 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #125 on: May 23, 2012, 06:50:47 AM »
I'm not denying that the toady class has morphed the federal income tax into what it is today.  "The toady class just can't help themselves; it is their nature."  They are a new breed:  Gay Masochist!  Just LUV takin' it in the ass!

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Offline UncommonSense

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #126 on: May 23, 2012, 07:31:40 AM »
While I work on a longer reply to all of the questions I've been asked....Let me adress "supply side" economics.

You may recall this as the "trickle down" theory, later rebranded as the "rising tide lifts all boats" ideal puppeted here. This argument makes sense so long as two things are true:

The economy is being held back by a shortage of capital available for investment, and that high earners are being held back from investing because they do not have the money to do so.

Given that we are currently in a situation in which corporations are sitting on record amounts of uninvested capital and within the last year we've seen some of the most profitable quarters in all of American history, it's a little hard to see how those descriptions apply.

The demand-side approach to tax cuts favors cuts for low and middle earners, in the hope that they will spend the extra money and thus stimulate the economy; this is essentially using tax cuts as a form of Keynesian stimulus. That argument makes sense so long as two things are true:

The economy is being held back by a lack of demand, and that there are lots of people who would buy more things if they had the money to do so. In the current economic climate, that seems like a fairly plausible pair of assumptions.

Actually, there are no clear affirmative conclusions to be drawn here except that we have overwhelming reasons to reject the claims being made by supply-side tax cut enthusiasts. The data certainly do not show that tax cuts never stimulate economic growth, nor even that they never stimulate economic growth enough to pay for themselves.

As I've pointed out, there are times when supply side economics makes sense and those that benefit from supply side have better resources and have used those resources to make one side of the argument.  In all fairness those that oppose supply side rarely point out that there is ever an argument for supply side theory and both sides go on to represent their ideas as the only possible solution.

Offline Eupher

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #127 on: May 23, 2012, 07:50:54 AM »
While I work on a longer reply to all of the questions I've been asked....Let me adress "supply side" economics.

You may recall this as the "trickle down" theory, later rebranded as the "rising tide lifts all boats" ideal puppeted here. This argument makes sense so long as two things are true:

The economy is being held back by a shortage of capital available for investment, and that high earners are being held back from investing because they do not have the money to do so.

Given that we are currently in a situation in which corporations are sitting on record amounts of uninvested capital and within the last year we've seen some of the most profitable quarters in all of American history, it's a little hard to see how those descriptions apply.

Since we're philosophizing rather than getting into nuts and bolts and black-letter law and BOHICA without lube, let me first state I'm no economist and don't profess to be well versed in the art/science.

It's been well postulated, however, that the fundamental REASON that corporations are sitting on all that capital, they're flush with cash, is very simple...

...they're waiting.

What are they waiting for? I never thought you'd ask. They're waiting for more CERTAINTY in economic forecasting; they're looking for a more disciplined approach to monetary policy (printing all that money over and over and over again does not do well for things like AAA bond ratings), and they're certainly looking to get rid of Barry so that monetary policy, in particular, can be addressed to provide that level of certainty they need.

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The demand-side approach to tax cuts favors cuts for low and middle earners, in the hope that they will spend the extra money and thus stimulate the economy; this is essentially using tax cuts as a form of Keynesian stimulus. That argument makes sense so long as two things are true:

Tax cuts, in the form we've seen, are veritable band-aids. They provide a sense of comfort and relief, when, in fact, that wound is festering with infection. They're political toys - and have not much more effect on the economy than that.

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Actually, there are no clear affirmative conclusions to be drawn here except that we have overwhelming reasons to reject the claims being made by supply-side tax cut enthusiasts. The data certainly do not show that tax cuts never stimulate economic growth, nor even that they never stimulate economic growth enough to pay for themselves.

I will revert to the original argument -- if you want to get less of something (economic growth), tax it. You can argue all you want about supply-side economic theory, but there's one very curious thing about it.

It works, or at least it worked in the 1980s. Are we that far removed from things not to revert back to that model, rather than the extremely archaic Keynesian model of the 1930s?

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2012, 08:30:04 AM »
You may recall this as the "trickle down" theory, later rebranded as the "rising tide lifts all boats" ideal puppeted here.

It's also referred to as Reaganomics...responsible for the longest period of peacetime economic growth this nation has ever seen.

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The economy is being held back by a shortage of capital available for investment, and that high earners are being held back from investing because they do not have the money to do so.


No they are sitting on piles of cash to shore themselves up in case Obama is successful in rasing the capital gains tax as he has said he wants to do from where it is now to 20%...the end of the Bush tax cuts and the possibility of full implementation of Obamacare.  All of which will cut severly into the profit margin of businesses large and small.

In short...there is no incentive to spend that money given what they are facing with this administration.

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Given that we are currently in a situation in which corporations are sitting on record amounts of uninvested capital and within the last year we've seen some of the most profitable quarters in all of American history, it's a little hard to see how those descriptions apply.


Link please.

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The demand-side approach to tax cuts favors cuts for low and middle earners, in the hope that they will spend the extra money and thus stimulate the economy; this is essentially using tax cuts as a form of Keynesian stimulus. That argument makes sense so long as two things are true:

People have to see a reason...an incentive to spend.  There is no incentive right now.

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The economy is being held back by a lack of demand, and that there are lots of people who would buy more things if they had the money to do so. In the current economic climate, that seems like a fairly plausible pair of assumptions.

And why don't they have the money to spend more?  High tax rates on those that do work and the same fear of having to pay for Obamacare and the expirtion of the Bush era tax cuts.

Americans aren't by and large aren't as stupid as Liberals and this Administration...they know that they have to save for a rainy day...to hold on to money for times of inflation higher gas prices and looming personal tax increases.

Joe Lunchbox doesn't have a money printing machine out back like the President that can jsut print more dollars when he's blown through his current pile.

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Actually, there are no clear affirmative conclusions to be drawn here except that we have overwhelming reasons to reject the claims being made by supply-side tax cut enthusiasts. The data certainly do not show that tax cuts never stimulate economic growth, nor even that they never stimulate economic growth enough to pay for themselves.

Oh really?

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By 2003, Mr. Bush grasped this lesson. In that year, he cut the dividend and capital gains rates to 15 percent each, and the economy responded. In two years, stocks rose 20 percent. In three years, $15 trillion of new wealth was created. The U.S. economy added 8 million new jobs from mid-2003 to early 2007, and the median household increased its wealth by $20,000 in real terms.

But the real jolt for tax-cutting opponents was that the 03 Bush tax cuts also generated a massive increase in federal tax receipts. From 2004 to 2007, federal tax revenues increased by $785 billion, the largest four-year increase in American history. According to the Treasury Department, individual and corporate income tax receipts were up 40 percent in the three years following the Bush tax cuts. And (bonus) the rich paid an even higher percentage of the total tax burden than they had at any time in at least the previous 40 years.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/3/bush-tax-cuts-boosted-federal-revenue/

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During the Reagan administration, the American economy went from a GDP growth of -0.3% in 1980 to 4.1% in 1988 (in constant 2005 dollars),[22] which reduced the unemployment rate by 1.6%, from 7.1% in 1980 to 5.5% in 1988, but with peaks of around 10.8% in 1983. [21][23] A net job increase of about 21 million also occurred through mid-1990. Reagan’s administration is the only one not to have raised the minimum wage.[24] The inflation rate, 13.5% in 1980, fell to 4.1% in 1988,





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics


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The Reagan tax cuts

Thanks to "bracket creep," the inflation of the 1970s pushed millions of taxpayers into higher tax brackets even though their inflation-adjusted incomes were not rising. To help offset this tax increase and also to improve incentives to work, save, and invest, President Reagan proposed sweeping tax rate reductions during the 1980s. What happened? Total tax revenues climbed by 99.4 percent during the 1980s, and the results are even more impressive when looking at what happened to personal income tax revenues. Once the economy received an unambiguous tax cut in January 1983, income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989 (28 percent after adjusting for inflation).

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/08/the-historical-lessons-of-lower-tax-rates

And just to be bi-partisian about the whole thing:


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The Kennedy tax cuts

President Hoover dramatically increased tax rates in the 1930s and President Roosevelt compounded the damage by pushing marginal tax rates to more than 90 percent. Recognizing that high tax rates were hindering the economy, President Kennedy proposed across-the-board tax rate reductions that reduced the top tax rate from more than 90 percent down to 70 percent. What happened? Tax revenues climbed from $94 billion in 1961 to $153 billion in 1968, an increase of 62 percent (33 percent after adjusting for inflation).

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/08/the-historical-lessons-of-lower-tax-rates


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As I've pointed out, there are times when supply side economics makes sense and those that benefit from supply side have better resources and have used those resources to make one side of the argument.  In all fairness those that oppose supply side rarely point out that there is ever an argument for supply side theory and both sides go on to represent their ideas as the only possible solution.

And yet I just demolished your Paul Krugman cut and past job in one post.

Try harder next time ok.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2012, 09:08:43 AM »
UncommonSense, this is a POLL. Do you understand POLL? This is not a discussion on anything else. Get the **** off my thread and start your bullshit on YOUR new thread.

GAWD, some people are really stupid!
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #130 on: May 23, 2012, 09:17:11 AM »
UncommonSense, this is a POLL. Do you understand POLL? This is not a discussion on anything else. Get the **** off my thread and start your bullshit on YOUR new thread.

GAWD, some people are really stupid!

Flat tax.  Everyone pays 15% across the board.  No loopholes and no deductions for morgatge payments... second homes etc.
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Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2012, 09:55:54 AM »
The reason for the 100k exemption on the front end, is benefits on the back end will be proportionally restricted.

I'm not sure I follow you. Isn't the simple result that there is less taken in? And that we need more to fund the system? So why shouldn't all income be subject to FICA? (Although would recommend exempting the first $30k.) Benefits themselves would be capped, of course.

There is no question that those earning much more than $100k (however earned) would not see a proportional return in retirement. I'm ok with this.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #132 on: May 23, 2012, 11:17:13 AM »
I'm not sure I follow you. Isn't the simple result that there is less taken in? And that we need more to fund the system? So why shouldn't all income be subject to FICA? (Although would recommend exempting the first $30k.) Benefits themselves would be capped, of course.

There is no question that those earning much more than $100k (however earned) would not see a proportional return in retirement. I'm ok with this.
FICA, when originally written was not meant to be a transfer payment program. It was meant to be a program where you get out what you put in. When pols come along and say we need more to fund the system, what they mean, effectively is that it has become a transfer payment program.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #133 on: May 23, 2012, 12:47:24 PM »
19 votes, lot of trash talking. But what can I expect from a troll?
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Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #134 on: May 23, 2012, 01:07:58 PM »
FICA, when originally written was not meant to be a transfer payment program. It was meant to be a program where you get out what you put in. When pols come along and say we need more to fund the system, what they mean, effectively is that it has become a transfer payment program.

I acknowledge that...it has always been a transfer payment system. So all I'm suggesting with this is upping the transfer. Do we want to save SS or not?

All taxation is, for the most part, a wealth transfer system.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2012, 01:11:07 PM »
I acknowledge that...it has always been a transfer payment system. So all I'm suggesting with this is upping the transfer. Do we want to save SS or not?

All taxation is, for the most part, a wealth transfer system.
I'm not sure I agree with that. The military and the funds to raise and support it are not directly wealth transfer. Libraries, Roads, Government buildings, some wealth transfer does take place, but not primarily taking money from one person for the sole purpose of giving it to another who hasn't earned it.
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Offline UncommonSense

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2012, 01:16:48 PM »
UncommonSense, this is a POLL. Do you understand POLL? This is not a discussion on anything else. Get the **** off my thread and start your bullshit on YOUR new thread.

GAWD, some people are really stupid!

Does that include the people that replied?  :-)

Offline Danglars

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #137 on: May 23, 2012, 01:30:26 PM »
I'm not sure I agree with that. The military and the funds to raise and support it are not directly wealth transfer. Libraries, Roads, Government buildings, some wealth transfer does take place, but not primarily taking money from one person for the sole purpose of giving it to another who hasn't earned it.

But often we see states seeing a net transfer to other states. Ok, interstate highways might be an exception, and we all benefit from some government-run agencies and duties that our taxes support--eg, the military--but there are a plethora of government agencies, including their buildings, which we will never enter and no work will be done within that helps any of us in any way, although they may help other people. And, as we know, much of what the feds and states do actually harms us.

So I cannot agree that income over $100k should be exempted from FICA---and I mean we have a diagreement in principle. We may have to agree to disagree on this. My main thoughts here were 1) how best to keep SS solvent, and 2) how to goose the economy at lower-income levels by exempting some of the first moneye arned. 30k may have been too large a number--say 15k.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2012, 02:41:13 PM »
Social security is a double ponzi scheme. I don't see the good in keeping it solvent under it's present structure.
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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2012, 06:36:38 PM »
UncommonSense, this is a POLL. Do you understand POLL? This is not a discussion on anything else. Get the **** off my thread and start your bullshit on YOUR new thread.

GAWD, some people are really stupid!

And I hit the OTHER button on your poll and gave my reasons why.  And I have already noted:

"It must be DUMSHIT week here on this message board."

Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2012, 06:43:45 PM »
you refute their propaganda with facts and black letter law and link to your sources

Yes, and I'm still laughing over that one...

Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2012, 08:24:27 PM »
And I hit the OTHER button on your poll and gave my reasons why.  And I have already noted:

"It must be DUMSHIT week here on this message board."
Yes, you are the smartest lib that has ever lived, besides owebuma, the object of your worship.
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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2012, 10:29:31 PM »
Yes, you are the smartest lib that has ever lived, besides owebuma, the object of your worship.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2012, 11:28:06 PM »
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
I quoted you.
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Offline Lacarnut

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2012, 11:28:40 PM »
Flat tax.  Everyone pays 15% across the board.  No loopholes and no deductions for mortgage payments... second homes etc.

I am single, retired with no mortgage: my income comes from a pension, SS and other income. If I had paid a flat 15% on my gross income, I would owe the IRS an additional $2,771. Screw that.

I think you need to do the math on your own taxes cause I surely do not want to send the grubby bastards any more of mine.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #145 on: May 24, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »
Yes, and I'm still laughing over that one...

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Offline indago

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #146 on: May 24, 2012, 09:38:40 AM »
I quoted you.

Quote
owebuma, the object of your worship.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Offline NHSparky

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #147 on: May 24, 2012, 11:03:46 AM »
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Cause your talking points are spoon fed to you from his campaign and the DNC?
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Offline CG6468

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2012, 11:37:41 AM »
I have requested that due to trolling and its associated insults, that this thread be locked.
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: What's the BEST Income Tax Plan?
« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Elementary my dear indago. You called everyone on the message board "dumbshit". It is almost certain you did not include yourself in the accusation. Hence you declared yourself intellectually superior to everyone on the board. The only people who declare themselves to be intellectually superior, even though they almost never are, are libs. Hence you are almost certainly a lib. All libs worship owebuma. Hence owebuma is the object of your worship. Even someone you consider to be intellectually inferior can sniff you right out, my dear indago.
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