Delve into the depths of the DUmp...

[dutch508]

Completely missing the point...

Boojatta  (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 07:20 PM
Original message
How do you reconcile "I want mercy, not sacrifice" with Jesus sacrificing himself?
 Advertisements [?]Who wanted Jesus to sacrifice himself? It seems that Jesus fought a one-man war and that "supporting the war" means refusing to question the value of the sacrifice. However, was the purpose simply to get attention for his message or are we to believe that blood sacrifice appeases the gods?

zeemike  (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. There is a great misunderstanding about the death of Jesus
 He did not die because of some mistaken notion of blood sacrifice or any crap like that.
He suffered death in a public way and resurrected his body to life to prove to his disciples and followers that life after death was not only possible but real.
You must remember that at the time the Jews did not believe in an afterlife and Jesus spent a good deal of his time trying to teach them that there was.
This point is clear if you read the new testament as you would read a book...to get the story...not to look for commandments from God.
Remember even Thomas one of his close disciples would not believe the others that Jesus had raised himself from the dead until he touched his wounds and seen him in person, even though he was told by Jesus that he would raise himself from the dead.
Had Jesus had not of done that Christianity and the gospel jesus taught would have ended in the first century AD. But because of that dramatic demonstration his followers were convinced that this was the Christ and devoted their lives to the message.

You are wasting your breath, DUmmie...

moobu2 (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why didn’t Jesus just take them over to “the other side” (where ever that is)
 and prove to them that there was an after life? It would have been lots easier. 

 

Evoman  (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. You have personal experience with the death of Jesus?
 Edited on Fri May-09-08 02:35 PM by Evoman
My personal experience is that most people make up shit when it comes to religion. How do you even study something religious. You've got one book....one book which all of your study is based on. Then you have hundreds of people revisiting the same stupid book over and over, making up shit about it and thinking their thoughts are the truth.

There are theologians who probably agree with you. There are theolgians who disagree with you. I'm sure there are people who think your interpretation of Jesus's death are utter bullshit.

Me? I don't know **** all about why Jesus died. In fact, I could care less. If I had to guess, it's because people who make waves and **** with the powerful often die. Jesus died just like any other rabble rouser. If he ever existed. But who the ****s knows. I don't have a time machine. Jesus or god have never spoken to me. The bible says what it says but gives no real clues. I don't feel the need, however, to make up shit so that I feel better about the universe.

Do I just believe what I am told? No. My first impulse is to always think that the person I'm talking to is full of shit, and going from there. If they have evidence to back up their claims, I might take them seriously.

I don't, however, take any religious conversations seriously. I don't consider theology a legitimate field of study. History, yes. Biblical history, sort of. Metaphysical bullshit,..no ****ing way. It's all bunk.

Goblinmonger (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. So the old testament
 was like the beta version of God's creation and then we get the amped up version of creation? So where did the angels hang out before there was heaven?

zeemike  (1000+ posts)      Fri May-09-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No the OT is basically a history of man on the earth
 And it's descendants the nation of Israel.
And Jesus did not create the astral world, it has always existed, but he created a place for his believers to go to in the astral world when they pass on.

Goblinmonger (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Well, if you get to just make stuff up
 it's really not a fair argument. If the OT is just a history:
1) it's a pretty shitty history that gets most things wrong
2) why all the god stuff and the commandments?

Goblinmonger (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I know that 
 scientific study has shown that there was no world-wide flood.
I know that there is absolutely no historical record that the Jews were held as slaves in Egypt.
I know that there is no possible way that human life came into being on the plant the number of generations BCE that the bible indicates.
I know that rabbits don't chew their own cud.

How can you be so wrong on pretty much everything?

John Gauger  (1000+ posts)      Sat May-10-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. There never was any Eyptian bondage or wandering in the wilderness.
 The story with Pharoah (if it really happened, why don't the Hebrews know his name?) is all made up. There is absolutely not record of it ever happening, and any time someone moved his bowels the Egyptians wrote it down. Likewise for the 40 years of wandering business. Besides, the walk from Egypt to Canaan, event then, could not have taken more than ten days. It simply is not possible to walk for forty years and never get anywhere.

uberllama42  (829 posts)      Fri May-09-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. I highly doubt that Eastern mytics all use the same word
 much less an English word derived from a Latin root.

Further, the concept you describe is not universal to Eastern mystical traditions. Not all mystical traditions believe in an afterlife, much less the New-Agey a la carte afterlife you describe.

Also (and correct me if I'm wrong) isn't there a story in the bible about Jesus going and retrieving the Jewish patriarchs from hell? How could he do that if hell didn't already exist?

Goblinmonger (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Oh, Come on
 of course it is about sacrifice. The New Testament is rich with that imagery. It is the most common usage of Christ imagery today.

And if you read the new testament as a book, then you will see that the myth of Jesus was just to create a better epic hero than those that already existed. Look at the similarities and then see that Jesus succeeded when others failed (even death could not stop him).

and you kind of seem to sway between reading the bible as a book and believing that there actually was dude named Jesus in history.

Goblinmonger (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Nice Catch-22
 The only place where Jesus talks in the NT is in the gospels and those people never met Jesus. So when I give you quotation (by the way, what "cup" do you think Jesus is asking to be taken from his lips? The flesh is weak about what?) that says that, you can just dismiss it. But it cuts both ways. The ONLY written history we have of Jesus is in the NT. There is NO OTHER historical record that such a dude existed (which is odd given the miraculous crap he was doing). So if you are going to dismiss the gospels, then Jesus is out with that bathwater.

So much hate and ignorance all in one place.

[jukin]

Another nice toasty fire of tolerance at Skin's Island.

[franksolich]

Listening to the primitives explaining Christianity is like watching a bunch of caged parrots discussing aerodynamics with each other.

[Mr Mannn]

Ignorance.
Professing to be wise they became as fools.

[BlueStateSaint]

Listening to the primitives explaining Christianity is like watching a bunch of caged parrots discussing aerodynamics with each other.

 

Serious H5, Coach!

[miskie]

Listening to the primitives explaining Christianity is like watching a bunch of caged parrots discussing aerodynamics with each other.

You are kinder than me - I would have described it as a circle jerk session in a Special Olympics locker room.

( -Miskie - bringing political correctness to a whole new level. )     

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

At least we still have the trees:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdYCynC0Ixs[/youtube]

[Chris_]

That takes tree hugging to a whole 'nother level. 

[Carl]

zeemike  (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. There is a great misunderstanding about the death of Jesus This you have correct as you are about to prove
 He did not die because of some mistaken notion of blood sacrifice or any crap like that.
He suffered death in a public way and resurrected his body to life to prove to his disciples and followers that life after death was not only possible but real.
You must remember that at the time the Jews did not believe in an afterlife and Jesus spent a good deal of his time trying to teach them that there was.
This point is clear if you read the new testament as you would read a book...to get the story...not to look for commandments from God.
Remember even Thomas one of his close disciples would not believe the others that Jesus had raised himself from the dead until he touched his wounds and seen him in person, even though he was told by Jesus that he would raise himself from the dead.
Had Jesus had not of done that Christianity and the gospel jesus taught would have ended in the first century AD. But because of that dramatic demonstration his followers were convinced that this was the Christ and devoted their lives to the message.

Jesus died and was ressurected to fulfill His plan of salvation for mankind,that is what the Bible says.
No one is required to believe that,we all are given a choice.

One thing that I find very telling about DUmmies deep down knowledge of God and their state in the world is that while they ridicule and deny anything Christian they are forever trying to portray Jesus as a Marxist.
It would seem that they indeed do acknowledge His existence but can`t stand His message of accepting our sinful nature and the need for repentence.

As with all things that don`t fit their wants and personal desires they simply make up things to fill that void.

[JohnnyReb]

If we all could but touch the hem of Al Gore's pants leg, we'd all be saved. ....or kiss Obama/Clinton's ass, whichever comes first.

Hey, the DUmmies have been wondering in the wilderness for well over 40 years and they ain't got to the promised land yet.......

[HACKSAW]

I love how the Primitives can understand every made up mystical mumbo jumbo under the sun (Smudging, Wiccan, healing light, Gaia worship, Global Warming, etc) yet have such a problem grasping even the concept of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

I believe it is because to accept Judeo-Christian beliefs, one has to accept the fact that there is something bigger than yourself. The hardest thing for a Primitive to do is admit they are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

[TheSarge]

The DUmmies are terrified of what they don't understand...and it manifests itself in threads like the one that was brought over.

[delilahmused]

Evoman  (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. You have personal experience with the death of Jesus?
 Edited on Fri May-09-08 02:35 PM by Evoman
My personal experience is that most people make up shit when it comes to religion. How do you even study something religious. You've got one book....one book which all of your study is based on. Then you have hundreds of people revisiting the same stupid book over and over, making up shit about it and thinking their thoughts are the truth.

There are theologians who probably agree with you. There are theolgians who disagree with you. I'm sure there are people who think your interpretation of Jesus's death are utter bullshit.

Me? I don't know **** all about why Jesus died. In fact, I could care less. If I had to guess, it's because people who make waves and **** with the powerful often die. Jesus died just like any other rabble rouser. If he ever existed. But who the ****s knows. I don't have a time machine. Jesus or god have never spoken to me. The bible says what it says but gives no real clues. I don't feel the need, however, to make up shit so that I feel better about the universe.

Do I just believe what I am told? No. My first impulse is to always think that the person I'm talking to is full of shit, and going from there. If they have evidence to back up their claims, I might take them seriously.

I don't, however, take any religious conversations seriously. I don't consider theology a legitimate field of study. History, yes. Biblical history, sort of. Metaphysical bullshit,..no ****ing way. It's all bunk.

One wonders why it even bothers to participate in threads like this. It seems a rather large waste of one's life (especially if as this idiot seems to believe...there is no afterlife and the here and now is all it's got) to post 5 paragraphs just to say you don't believe in something. I'm sure it's probably just to share it's profound wisdom with the rest of the planet. I mean, who can doubt the I.Q. of someone who says, "I don't know **** all about why Jesus died." DU intelligensia on display.

Cindie

[FlaGator]

Evoman  (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. You have personal experience with the death of Jesus?
 Edited on Fri May-09-08 02:35 PM by Evoman
My personal experience is that most people make up shit when it comes to religion. How do you even study something religious. You've got one book....one book which all of your study is based on. Then you have hundreds of people revisiting the same stupid book over and over, making up shit about it and thinking their thoughts are the truth.

There are theologians who probably agree with you. There are theolgians who disagree with you. I'm sure there are people who think your interpretation of Jesus's death are utter bullshit.

Me? I don't know **** all about why Jesus died. In fact, I could care less. If I had to guess, it's because people who make waves and **** with the powerful often die. Jesus died just like any other rabble rouser. If he ever existed. But who the ****s knows. I don't have a time machine. Jesus or god have never spoken to me. The bible says what it says but gives no real clues. I don't feel the need, however, to make up shit so that I feel better about the universe.

Do I just believe what I am told? No. My first impulse is to always think that the person I'm talking to is full of shit, and going from there. If they have evidence to back up their claims, I might take them seriously.

I don't, however, take any religious conversations seriously. I don't consider theology a legitimate field of study. History, yes. Biblical history, sort of. Metaphysical bullshit,..no ******* way. It's all bunk.

One wonders why it even bothers to participate in threads like this. It seems a rather large waste of one's life (especially if as this idiot seems to believe...there is no afterlife and the here and now is all it's got) to post 5 paragraphs just to say you don't believe in something. I'm sure it's probably just to share it's profound wisdom with the rest of the planet. I mean, who can doubt the I.Q. of someone who says, "I don't know **** all about why Jesus died." DU intelligensia on display.

Cindie

As Paul said to the Corinthians: 'Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." Come back to your
senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.'
1 Corinthians 15:33-34

[Flame]

I believe it is because to accept Judeo-Christian beliefs, one has to accept the fact that there is something bigger than yourself. The hardest thing for a Primitive to do is admit they are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

and not only that, but Christ tells everyone to look inside and examine their hearts, and to see themselves for the sinners they are...that's the LAST thing DUmmies want to do!

[PatriotGame]

Evoman  (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
My personal experience is that most people make up shit when it comes to religion...

Do I just believe what I am told? No. My first impulse is to always think that the person I'm talking to is full of shit, and going from there. If they have evidence to back up their claims, I might take them seriously.

Well then, my first and only impulse is that you are full of shit.
Nuff said...

[FlaGator]

Evoman  (1000+ posts)       Fri May-09-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
My personal experience is that most people make up shit when it comes to religion...

Do I just believe what I am told? No. My first impulse is to always think that the person I'm talking to is full of shit, and going from there. If they have evidence to back up their claims, I might take them seriously.

Well then, my first and only impulse is that you are full of shit.
Nuff said...

That's pretty much my first impulse when reading things from DUers.

[stickyboot]

Listening to the primitives explaining Christianity is like watching a bunch of caged parrots discussing aerodynamics with each other.

Ain't that the truth? Squawk...Polly wants a...what the hell's a boundary layer?...cracker.

[Airwolf]

Listening to the primitives explaining Christianity is like watching a bunch of caged parrots discussing aerodynamics with each other.

And about as usefull as herding cats with a leafblower too