wonder if she/he/it means the wiccans?

[dutch508]

Indenturedebtor (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 06:08 PM
Original message http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3260674
The problem with rearing children on religion
 Advertisements [?]There have been more than a few studies which strongly correlate presenting children with too many logically inconsistent paradigms and the development of mental disease. Furthermore, logic is LEARNED more than it is innate. You can permanently stunt reason by raising someone on a diet of 1+1 = 542,000.

The brain wires itself based on what you feed it in terms of information. It is doing so every milisecond of every day, but this is especially important during childhood. An important part of learning, especially during childhood, is culling. Your brain culls connections and even neurons that are out of synch with their associated neurons... another way of saying if you have a neuron that says 1+1=542,000 while the rest are saying 1+1=2, your brain may well kill the wonky one because it's afraid that it might be defective. It's a much more complicated process than that of course but you get the idea. People who develop schizophrenia are almost always genetically predisposed to it. But being predisposed doesn't mean that you will get it! So very much of it has to do with upbringing, and then stressful triggers.

But Schizophrenia (though quite common) is certainly not the only way that you can express an illogical improperly wired brain. Schizotypal disorders involve many of the same symptoms of Schizophrenia. Below is a link to I believe the first study linking parenting styles to the development of Schizophrenia. There have been many conducted since then.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&r...

Thats a good primer on the studies.. that was one of the first. There are many more that basically boil down to a "no brainer": You can miswire a brain by feeding it things that don't make sense. Shocking I know  Kinda helps explain the Middle Ages a little doesn't it?

Here's some signs of schizophrenia -

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Delusions
A delusion is a firmly-held idea that a person has despite clear and obvious evidence that it isn’t true. Delusions are extremely common in schizophrenia, occurring in more than 90% of patients. Often, these delusions involve illogical or bizarre ideas or fantasies. Common schizophrenic delusions include:

Delusions of persecution — Belief that others, often a vague “they,” are out to get him or her. These persecutory delusions often involve bizarre ideas and plots (e.g. “Martians are trying to poison me with radioactive particles delivered through my tap water”).

Delusions of reference — A neutral environmental event is believed to have a special and personal meaning. For example, a person with schizophrenia might believe a billboard or a person on TV is sending a message meant specifically for them.

Delusions of grandeur — Belief that one is a famous or important figure, such as Jesus Christ or Napolean. Alternately, delusions of grandeur may involve the belief that one has unusual powers that no one else has (e.g. the ability to fly).

Delusions of control — Belief that one’s thoughts or actions are being controlled by outside, alien forces. Common delusions of control include thought broadcasting (“My private thoughts are being transmitted to others”), thought insertion (“Someone is planting thoughts in my head”), and thought withdrawal (“The CIA is robbing me of my thoughts.”).

Common signs of disorganized speech in schizophrenia include:

Loose associations — Rapidly shifting from topic to topic, with no connection between one thought and the next.
Neologisms — Made-up words or phrases that only have meaning to the patient.
Perseveration — Repetition of words and statements; saying the same thing over and over.
Clang — Meaningless use of rhyming words (“I said the bread and read the shed and fed Ned at the head.").
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http://www.helpguide.org/mental/schizophrenia_symptom.h...

Any of this sound familiar? It does. It sounds like DU.

Personally i think that there is much that is of cultural and personal value in religion, but one has to be careful. Hallucinogenic drugs can also be useful as part of religious services, or for even personal development. But I am FIRMLY of the belief that you have to seperate fantasy/parable land from what we can test and prove. I don't remember any being given out in the last mass I attended.

You can't teach children simultaneously that gravity is immutable and that people can levitate if they believe enough in their invisible friends. You cannot wire a brain in two directions at the same time!!!!! To do so makes crazy people! 1+1=2 dammit! Believe in god all you want but for the love of the children help them understand that there is a difference between faith and reality. By definition they are two seperate things!

pretty sure the wiccans are going to burn her/him/it at the stake.

spoony  (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Lol
 Then the level of faith on DU must be quite high, because I've never seen such an intolerant lot when it comes to discussions of religion. Including calling people mentally ill and dangerous as parents.

 

and so it begins...

Indenturedebtor (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm not calling anyone a "dangerous parent"
 But it is dangerous to the mind to be forced to reconcile the irreconcilable. Did you read the article above? Would you like more? 

thrust!

spoony  (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. More of what? Opinion pieces 
 which are little more than "You believes? You's be crazzy!" type crap dressed up in psycho-babble designed to peg one's opponents as deviant? No, thank you. It's frightfully cheap, gimmicky sophism.

As for reconciling the irreconcilable, paradox is part of human thought whether it is natural or philosophical in nature. Things must be fitted together. You don't think there are such things in science? Was it dangerous for minds to marry Newtonian physics and special relativity?

Isn't the entire journey of life full of instances wherein we encounter new phenomena and data that have to be reconciled, one way or another, with our worldview? It isn't "dangerous." It's called growth, and I would hate to live without it. 

repose,

Indenturedebtor (1000+ posts)      Thu May-08-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Ok so you didn't read it. Don't take my words as fact
 My words are opinions, but the article which describes a very well known study which has been very well replicated is worth reading. I'm not trying to say that everyone who believes is crazy, simply pointing out a connection between two things:

1) The well established findings on the development of schizophrenia and schizotypal disorders and their connections with an illogical upbringing.
2) The fact that religion is inherently illogical... hence the words "believe" and "faith".

And if it's so easy to reconcile, explain to me then why there are so many fundies who can't understand science while floating people and zombies are so very "real". Explain to me how people can argue that "I know I'm right because god speaks to me." Explain to me how people can think that sending someone a 20 dollar bill will buy them a ticket to heaven?

Come on please refute my arguments and the research behind it with LOGIC and REASON rather than a couple of offhand smears.

Things that do fit together are meant to be fitted together. Things that contradict each other are meant for one of them to prevail.

 

 counter,

libodem  (1000+ posts)       Thu May-08-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. I worked for 2 years 
 at the State Mental Hospital and for a couple of years in a private institution. I know what you are talking about. Some of my sickest patients' delusional ideation revolved around religious themes. One young woman would pace the halls yelling, "I AM the bride of Jesus!"..."My NAME is NOT Larine!" I worked with a young mother of 3 little kids who thought one of the male attendants was Jesus. Another girl, who also had a sister there, came from a single mother who let her lovers use the kids. Her foster family was nutso religious and she turned out more Schizophrenic and troubled than the little sister who was disabled with fetal alcohol syndrome. I don't remember the men as well for some reason.

I don't think your patients were crazy because of religion, which is wing-nuts Op position. They were crazy, period.

[dandi]

For the person of faith, Christian faith for example, as that is the only point of reference from which I can speak directly, there is no struggle to resolve the paradox between man's scientific or "logical" laws and those of our infinite God. We simply recognize that God operates free from the constraints he has imposed upon us as mortals. I don't need to sit around furrowing my brow until I'm catatonic over how Jesus could have ascended to Heaven because gravity should have pulled him back down. it is enough to know His wonders are not limited by some wheedling, insistent voice from one of His creations saying, "That can't happen."

I also doubt very seriously that children who have the Gospel instilled in them at a young age spend a lot of time in sober reflection on the problem that God's existence creates for Newtonian physics. I know I never had a problem at all trying to reconcile God's laws and Man's laws. I knew they were two different things and never the twain shall meet, so to speak.

[DumbAss Tanker]

I think the DU atheists hate on the Wiccans as much as they hate on the Christians, the Dem Christians and Wiccans both just don't want to waste their time and tears arguing with the hateful assholes.  There are people of faith (some exotic ones, granted, as well as more typical ones) over there, and even a fair number with good will toward men, they have just learned it's pointless to try to temper these hatefests with sweet reason since saying anything positive about religion in these threads just seems to make them even more vitriolic than they were already.