Anyone upset about food stamps is scum

[jtyangel]

I think she was trying to politely point out the hypocrisy of what Gina said back then and what she said in this thread. If Jty and her ex have to be solely responsible and have foresight for what kind of child they have then the same should apply to Gina and her brood when it comes to seeking/applying for food assistance. If you're going to claim purity in the independence dept. you really should practice it in real life. I myself have never applied for or gotten help from any government agency whatsoever{i've always went out and gotten a second job when things got tough} but i don't impune folks who do need it on one occasion or another as long as it's not abused. I think what is more disturbing in that thread is how some folks think Special Ed kids should be treated.

I didn't want to get on a special eds kick because I knew it would be an easy distraction, but Toasted is right, if we can't claim independent purity on lesser things like putting food on the table then we probably shouldn't speak to those in extraordinary circumstances who seek and need help whether it's via food stamps, public schools, etc. I can well prepare for knowing I'll need to feed a mouth I bore(although sometimes things do happen that make it difficult as I said before I don't begrudge seeking help), I can not well prepare for the fact that I will have a child with a serious disability. To suggest such when you need to seek help for providing basic needs for NORMAL children is not really an admirable position. It just isn't. And I hated to bring this up, but the double speak and double standard does get tiresome. And we as conservatives should ahve some little voice in us that makes us better at detecting our own deficiencies in these things. I guess I expect more from 'our side'.

As for the special needs issue, perhaps the problem here is some of you have never been around a REAL autistic person. My son qualifies as what one would think of as classically autistic ie very little except rote communication, difficultly carrying out daily tasks because his brain does not  know how to apply something he's learned in a different circumstance, etc. He cannot do the things you or I would expect of a normal 11 year old boy and his 7 year old brother is quickly surpassing him on many things because of his deficiencies. I toyed with putting up some ipod videos I took of one of his fits not long ago, but in the interest of his privacy and my family's, I'm not going to do it here.  If you are interested in learning more, others here have me on facebook and I'll put the videos up when I can get them moved from the ipod to the computer. I'll be happy to take more video in the interest of showing you his traits and behaviors. I'm all about educating really so if there is genuine interest in learning and growing, feel free to pm me.

I know that Toast as someone who works around these children AND who knows my son personally has tried to appeal to some here about how special needs kids are. I know he's probably made little progress. It's ok, I didn't understand these things before God blessed me with a child like this either, nor did I care too. Pardon my absence, real life and in the office quite a bit lately with retirements. I don't have time now to read further, but wanted to clarify quickly on a couple that I did.

[jtyangel]

OK, I see what you're saying now as far as your argument about hypocrisy.

On certain issues I tend not to go to the extreme, I always think "There but for the Grace of God go I".

Yes, what many here don't seem to get is I've had the rough hand of life slap the righteous political purity out of me. I know all to well I don't know all there is to know and can't understand all there is to understand. The problem with assistance as I see it is that liberals tend to think everyone deserves and is entitled to it no matter what their efforts are to make things right. The problem on our side is we fail to see that there are people who genuinely need help and who are good stewards with what they are given. Both sides operate on false premises of extremes. There are abusers, particularly generational abusers of the system and there are also people who desperately need help. The little help we give(say with special needs) allows them to keep disabled adults home and from overburdening the system more by being 'placed' with someone who might be milking the system(as an example)or in expensive 'homes' funded by the state $. Or the help gets someone over a short term hump so they can more quickly recover to the point of being more self-sufficient. Maybe if the gov took pursuing fraud and placing certain restrictions on access more seriously, we could find a good meeting point for this stuff. I know it's probably got a lot of haunches up, but I think it's a good springboard for us to discuss issues like this and it's a good moment to self-reflect on our own biases and conflicting sentiments. Believe me, I don't ask anyone to consider what I don't myself and my tempering of experience has come hard learned.

[AprilRazz]

I didn't want to get on a special eds kick because I knew it would be an easy distraction, but Toasted is right, if we can't claim independent purity on lesser things like putting food on the table then we probably shouldn't speak to those in extraordinary circumstances who seek and need help whether it's via food stamps, public schools, etc. I can well prepare for knowing I'll need to feed a mouth I bore(although sometimes things do happen that make it difficult as I said before I don't begrudge seeking help), I can not well prepare for the fact that I will have a child with a serious disability. To suggest such when you need to seek help for providing basic needs for NORMAL children is not really an admirable position. It just isn't. And I hated to bring this up, but the double speak and double standard does get tiresome. And we as conservatives should ahve some little voice in us that makes us better at detecting our own deficiencies in these things. I guess I expect more from 'our side'.

As for the special needs issue, perhaps the problem here is some of you have never been around a REAL autistic person. My son qualifies as what one would think of as classically autistic ie very little except rote communication, difficultly carrying out daily tasks because his brain does not  know how to apply something he's learned in a different circumstance, etc. He cannot do the things you or I would expect of a normal 11 year old boy and his 7 year old brother is quickly surpassing him on many things because of his deficiencies. I toyed with putting up some ipod videos I took of one of his fits not long ago, but in the interest of his privacy and my family's, I'm not going to do it here.  If you are interested in learning more, others here have me on facebook and I'll put the videos up when I can get them moved from the ipod to the computer. I'll be happy to take more video in the interest of showing you his traits and behaviors. I'm all about educating really so if there is genuine interest in learning and growing, feel free to pm me.

I know that Toast as someone who works around these children AND who knows my son personally has tried to appeal to some here about how special needs kids are. I know he's probably made little progress. It's ok, I didn't understand these things before God blessed me with a child like this either, nor did I care too. Pardon my absence, real life and in the office quite a bit lately with retirements. I don't have time now to read further, but wanted to clarify quickly on a couple that I did.

A good friend has an autistic 8 year old and raves about Temple Grandin. Have you had a chance to check out any of her books? My son also falls under the spectrum and she is one of his heroes now.

She also sent him a nice handwritten note to congratulate him for earning his Eagle Scout.

[jtyangel]

No one has a problem helping people who TRULY need help. As Bally so eloquently opined here:

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,69063.msg804346.html#msg804346

However, it should be a bottom up process, NOT a top down process. In other words, help should be as local as possible.

I'm not debating the hows. 

[jtyangel]

Just from my personal online experience and real life encounters with people from various political stripes, conservatives in general have no problem at all with people who are having a hard time and need some assistance, and we tend to donate to Churches to help such people also and food banks, the problem is when generation after generation it turns into an entitlement.

As far as kids who have a disability? again, no problem with the Government or State helping those kids, but at what point does 1 kids rights infringe upon the rights of an entire classroom? Isn't it possible that there are a few kids who through no fault of their own have such excessive behavior that it disrupts everyone else? not saying to just throw that kid away, but maybe some private school time at home would be helpful until something else is figured out?

And what of someone in my situation--divorced. If I don't work, your level of assistance so I can support my family would HAVE to go up. Not to mention, as an elderly woman at some point you will be taking care of both me and my son since I would not have been able to accumulate anything to take care of myself in my old age. You see how difficult this gets. We then are left with choosing an imperfect option that is as best for everyone as can be including the taxpayer. Believe me, special needs kids don't get everything they need either. Financially, that is just not possible from my standpoint and from the public's--you do the best you can with what you have.

And normal children are disruptive. My youngest child has dealt with some very nasty 2nd graders this year. In fact teachers seem to have less ability to intercede with normal children then they do with special needs.

I stated where I think the disconnect is. Generally speaking, many conservatives think EVERY case of assistance is generational or the person sells their foodstamps for beer and cigs. And every liberal thinks every charity case is noble. Our misconceptions in general are where the disconnect is. I think you are singing to the choir here, Bally. I never said there weren't abuses, I was only speaking to our double speak. We can't judge a person's ability to prepare when we ourselves find we aren't fully prepared. That's the ONLY thing I was really addressing. I wanted to bite my tongue, but it was bleeding over this one. Sorry.

[delilahmused]

And what of someone in my situation--divorced. If I don't work, your level of assistance so I can support my family would HAVE to go up. Not to mention, as an elderly woman at some point you will be taking care of both me and my son since I would not have been able to accumulate anything to take care of myself in my old age. You see how difficult this gets. We then are left with choosing an imperfect option that is as best for everyone as can be including the taxpayer. Believe me, special needs kids don't get everything they need either. Financially, that is just not possible from my standpoint and from the public's--you do the best you can with what you have.

And normal children are disruptive. My youngest child has dealt with some very nasty 2nd graders this year. In fact teachers seem to have less ability to intercede with normal children then they do with special needs.

I stated where I think the disconnect is. Generally speaking, many conservatives think EVERY case of assistance is generational or the person sells their foodstamps for beer and cigs. And every liberal thinks every charity case is noble. Our misconceptions in general are where the disconnect is. I think you are singing to the choir here, Bally. I never said there weren't abuses, I was only speaking to our double speak. We can't judge a person's ability to prepare when we ourselves find we aren't fully prepared. That's the ONLY thing I was really addressing. I wanted to bite my tongue, but it was bleeding over this one. Sorry.

I understand how you feel, honestly, but DU threads and the criticisms are directed AT them because they WANT everyone to be able to have whatever they want. They whine about it, pretend like they piously care about the poor, make up stories about hardships, make copious lists about what the government should give them, what everyone (mostly them) should have, make excuses for people who do abuse the system, want no accountability, etc., etc. You're going to find harsher criticism here because of the DUmmies general life philosophy of dependence and government nanny-ism rather than being aimed at those who really need help. But if we as a nation were more discretionary about where those dollars went, how & what they're distributed for, conditions, etc. there would be a lot more quality help for a child like yours. And you're working to make things as good as you can for your family. Not so for many people receiving assistance, especially those for whom it's become a generational lifestyle. It's simply expected with no responsibility for taking from the other citizens of this country.

And I get how sometimes it can seem personal. Being bipolar and basically able to rival DUmmies in the chemical cocktail department there have been times when it's been difficult to keep my perspective when the discussion centers around some of the mental health threads. But really, it's not necessarily the fact that they have a mental illness (though in some cases I do think some of them are faking it) it's that the revel in it. It's the pride they take in having something wrong and the "my drugs are more than your drugs", "my sickness is worse than your sickness" that's the reason for the criticism. If you look at it from the point of view that it's not that you have challenges (and may need assistance others here don't), it's how you handle those challenges. DUmmies simply don't try to rise above them. On purpose. Misery & being pathetic is a lifestyle.

Cindie

[BEG]

I understand how you feel, honestly, but DU threads and the criticisms are directed AT them because they WANT everyone to be able to have whatever they want. They whine about it, pretend like they piously care about the poor, make up stories about hardships, make copious lists about what the government should give them, what everyone (mostly them) should have, make excuses for people who do abuse the system, want no accountability, etc., etc. You're going to find harsher criticism here because of the DUmmies general life philosophy of dependence and government nanny-ism rather than being aimed at those who really need help. But if we as a nation were more discretionary about where those dollars went, how & what they're distributed for, conditions, etc. there would be a lot more quality help for a child like yours. And you're working to make things as good as you can for your family. Not so for many people receiving assistance, especially those for whom it's become a generational lifestyle. It's simply expected with no responsibility for taking from the other citizens of this country.

And I get how sometimes it can seem personal. Being bipolar and basically able to rival DUmmies in the chemical cocktail department there have been times when it's been difficult to keep my perspective when the discussion centers around some of the mental health threads. But really, it's not necessarily the fact that they have a mental illness (though in some cases I do think some of them are faking it) it's that the revel in it. It's the pride they take in having something wrong and the "my drugs are more than your drugs", "my sickness is worse than your sickness" that's the reason for the criticism. If you look at it from the point of view that it's not that you have challenges (and may need assistance others here don't), it's how you handle those challenges. DUmmies simply don't try to rise above them. On purpose. Misery & being pathetic is a lifestyle.

Cindie

H5

Jty, what I have seen you and Schade go through for your sons is truly amazing. You both walk through broken glass for your kids to make sure they get the care they deserve.

Gina has worked her ass off for her family too, admitting that she needed help from the government for a short amount of time is nothing to be ashamed of. Situations like hers and yours are what government assistance should be for. Not living off it for years and years (obviously im not speaking of truly disabled people) and certainly not generation after generation.

[MrsSmith]

Conservatives generally believe that those who can, should.  Those who need help should get help.  Someone who has an autistic child either has a full-time job caring for that child, or needs the funds to be able to hire good help.  

Any of us that are anti-abortion must be willing to help out in cases of accidental pregnancies, but that does not give the parents the right to expect us to support their children forever, unless there is good reason why the parent(s) can't support the children.  It's better that we support them than that they are murdered.  

However, it would be far more efficient to do those things correctly, through charities and churches instead of through the God-forsaken expensive government agencies.

As someone with very slight experience with an autistic child, I totally agree that the parents who raise these children deserve our help...far, far more than some of the people I know who are supported by taxpayers because they have chosen to eat themselves into morbid obesity.

[Gina]

Conservatives generally believe that those who can, should.  Those who need help should get help.  Someone who has an autistic child either has a full-time job caring for that child, or needs the funds to be able to hire good help.  

Any of us that are anti-abortion must be willing to help out in cases of accidental pregnancies, but that does not give the parents the right to expect us to support their children forever, unless there is good reason why the parent(s) can't support the children.  It's better that we support them than that they are murdered.  

However, it would be far more efficient to do those things correctly, through charities and churches instead of through the God-forsaken expensive government agencies.

As someone with very slight experience with an autistic child, I totally agree that the parents who raise these children deserve our help...far, far more than some of the people I know who are supported by taxpayers because they have chosen to eat themselves into morbid obesity.

Yes and then when they keep having them over and over and still not supporting them that is when I think they should be adopted out.