Brooklyn store fined $30,000 for stocking toy guns

[Chris_]

The owner of a discount store in Brooklyn says the city is holding him up for $30,000 in fines he can’t afford — all because he stocked six toy sheriff sets that included plastic guns.

And now the .44-caliber fines for the orange-tipped, obvious fakes are forcing him to close for good.

The store “cannot pay that fine at all,” said Mohamed, arguing that the punishment imposed on the Utica Avenue odds-and-ends shop is way out of proportion to the violation.

The store’s lawyer, Andrew Tilem, doesn’t dispute that 99¢ Target was in violation of a city regulation that makes it illegal to sell toy weapons that look too real.

New York Post

Liberal policies = bad for business.  Why does anyone still live in that city? 

[Rebel]

The rule is designed to prevent cops from mistaking the toys for the real thing — and shooting an innocent kid — and to thwart criminals from using them to commit crimes.

A rule that requires someone to pay for a cop's mistake?

Liberalism. 

[Gratiot]

the store initially relied on the word of the gun’s vendor, JMD All Star of New Jersey, that the toys were legal for sale

...a failure of due diligence.

the prior manager failed to inform store owner Jamal Ahmed that a city inspector had written up the shop.

...another failure of due diligence.

Because of that failure, Ahmed missed a hearing, which led to the $30,000 fine

...Something sounds amiss, but skipping a hearing certainly inclines oneself to be found at fault, at maximum value.

The lawyer got Consumer Affairs to reopen the case and negotiate a tentative settlement for about $5,400.

Finally a proper action, which resulted in an approximately 80% reduction in the fine over what by now is an obviously at fault violation.

But Ahmed couldn’t afford that either, so he tried his luck at another hearing.

 Who in the hell can't afford 5k?  Pull it out of your commercial line-of-credit or place it on a credit card if you need to.  It sucks, but consider it a cheap lesson to perform better due diligence in the future.  Than, go after the vendor who stated they were legal, in order to recoup a majority of that 5k.  You do have the answer in writing, no?

After the store argued that no reasonable person would believe the guns were real

Sigh, one should realize, that type of argument is a horrendous hearing strategy.  Which resulted in the loss of that 80% fine reduction.  

[Gratiot]

A rule that requires someone to pay for a cop's mistake?

I'm not sure I'd find any fault in those Texas officers.  At least, in the initial news reports, I couldn't find any fault with their actions.  I do have sympathy for them though, even without having made a mistake, they're likely to be questioning if it was a mistake for a long time.  It can't be easy knowing you gunned down a kid with a toy gun.

Hell, I remember when I was a kid playing paintball in some woods, when the state troopers came... guns drawn, not knowing about paintball at the time.  Talk about a bunch of  15 year olds!

[Rebel]

I'm not sure I'd find any fault in those Texas officers.  At least, in the initial news reports, I couldn't find any fault with their actions.  I do have sympathy for them though, even without having made a mistake, they're likely to be questioning if it was a mistake for a long time.  It can't be easy knowing you gunned down a kid with a toy gun.

From reading, the kid in Texas had a pellet gun, not this:

[Gratiot]

From reading, the kid in Texas had a pellet gun, not this:

I understand, although I thought it was a airsoft gun, which.. may have had an orange (non-real gun) tip.  Personally, I'm not sure where I stand on the toy gun issue.  Other than boys need to have them, especially NERF automatic electric belt fed full auto ones    But, it does seem pretty clear that in the split second of decision making, having toy guns that don't even have a slight resemblance to real ones may be a worthwhile sacrifice to save lives.  From a distance, with broken orange tip or it being concealed in a holster, it could be entirely plausible for someone to mistake it as a real gun.  I'm sure an experienced officer or gun shooter would recognize it as a toy, in just over a fraction of a second.  Unfortunately they very well may not have that time and an unexperienced person may see it and call it in, escalating a situation which will likely have a swat team response if in a school.  

Regardless, I feel sorry for the officers in Texas and don't fault them in the slightest, from what I've read.  I also think that the real issues in the above case, were about poor decisions by Muhammad the obviously inexperienced and partly inept store owner.  

[thundley4]

Whatever happened to the cool motorized squirt guns?



I had one of the Uzi types back in the early 80's and might have it somewhere still.

[Rebel]

Whatever happened to the cool motorized squirt guns?



I had one of the Uzi types back in the early 80's and might have it somewhere still.

I had the uzi as well. Used to take it to the theater at Metrocenter in Jackson for Rocky Horror Picture show. I'd probably be swarmed by SWAT these days.

[Maxiest]

I had the uzi as well. Used to take it to the theater at Metrocenter in Jackson for Rocky Horror Picture show. I'd probably be swarmed by SWAT these days.

No, actually you would be gunned down by the locals at Metrocenter, which you wouldn't go to today... Especially since they closed it due to theft becoming such an issue.

[Rebel]

No, actually you would be gunned down by the locals at Metrocenter, which you wouldn't go to today... Especially since they closed it due to theft becoming such an issue.

I realize that. This was 20+ years ago. I still go back to Jackson as my parents live in Byram.

[MrsSmith]

Many years ago, my brother and a friend borrowed a couple toy guns from my kids and took them into town.  They were horsing around in the friend's father's business, pretending to hold them up.  They walked out the door backwards and turned around to see they had about 30 police with guns leveled, ready to take care of the "thieves."

Luckily, they weren't shot on sight, and the kid's father managed to explain what was going on.

The toy guns they used...were transparent, had colored LEDs in them that flashed, and made space gun noises.

They don't have to look real for the cops to make a mistake.


That said, the kid in Texas evidently refused to lay the gun down, a horrible and tragic mistake.  I'm sure the cops are all sick.  It's just crazy to assume that the answer to this problem can be found by fining businesses for stocking little plastic toys.

[Rebel]

Many years ago, my brother and a friend borrowed a couple toy guns from my kids and took them into town.  They were horsing around in the friend's father's business, pretending to hold them up.  They walked out the door backwards and turned around to see they had about 30 police with guns leveled, ready to take care of the "thieves."

Luckily, they weren't shot on sight, and the kid's father managed to explain what was going on.

The toy guns they used...were transparent, had colored LEDs in them that flashed, and made space gun noises.

They don't have to look real for the cops to make a mistake.


That said, the kid in Texas evidently refused to lay the gun down, a horrible and tragic mistake.  I'm sure the cops are all sick.  It's just crazy to assume that the answer to this problem can be found by fining businesses for stocking little plastic toys.

Any cop that would mistake what you just described as a firearm doesn't need to be a cop.

[Gratiot]

Any cop that would mistake what you just described as a firearm doesn't need to be a cop.

It sounds like it wasn't a cop who made the mistake, but possibly a passing bystander.  Which leads to the near swat team response, guns drawn, tensions high, and split second decisions... the chain of events that can lead to very bad results, especially if it looks partly real.. and not an obvious toy like in this case.

[NHSparky]

Jesus, I wonder what would happen if these NYC dipshits went to places were I grew up and we had (gasp!) REAL guns. 

I got my first .22 at the age of NINE.  I used my allowance to buy ammo by the brick and shot it up just as fast.  No cops, no tight-assed people freaking out.  Hell, the older kids would drive to school with their 30-30's on the gun rack after they went hunting before school and go out hunting again (if they needed to) after school.  Nobody called the SWAT team (there wasn't one), and we all survived.

Amazing.

[Rugnuts]

A rule that requires someone to pay for a cop's mistake?

Liberalism. 

not a cops mistake, it would be the mistake of the child to present a replica gun in a situation where it could be mistaken for the real mccoy. kid deserves to get shot. sympathies for the cop who gets to deal with it for the rest of his life.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

not a cops mistake, it would be the mistake of the child to present a replica gun in a situation where it could be mistaken for the real mccoy. kid deserves to get shot. sympathies for the cop who gets to deal with it for the rest of his life.

Children are...children. They're not adults. I feel bad for the cop but I can't bring myself to say the kid "deserves to be shot."

[Rugnuts]

EDIT: i didnt click the link to see the "toy" in question. i wrongly assumed it was replica toys that looked like the real thing. (for instance the uzi squirter up above)

BUT:
if the kid is in a situation where the gun can be mistaken, i.e. robbing a store, shoot em.
after 10-20 times that this makes the rounds in the media, parents should start thinking about "raising" their children. I know they will instead put the blame in the wrong place and want laws to protect the stupid. It shouldnt be that way.

there is no reason for a cop to shoot anyone with a toy or real gun unless they are using them in these types of situations.

and those not following cops orders "Freeze, drop it"... shoot em. people need to learn.

[docstew]

EDIT: i didnt click the link to see the "toy" in question. i wrongly assumed it was replica toys that looked like the real thing. (for instance the uzi squirter up above)

BUT:
if the kid is in a situation where the gun can be mistaken, i.e. robbing a store, shoot em.
after 10-20 times that this makes the rounds in the media, parents should start thinking about "raising" their children. I know they will instead put the blame in the wrong place and want laws to protect the stupid. It shouldnt be that way.

there is no reason for a cop to shoot anyone with a toy or real gun unless they are using them in these types of situations.

and those not following cops orders "Freeze, drop it"... shoot em. people need to learn.

I know we sometimes say on here that "Stupidity should be painful, if not fatal", but I think you're taking that statement a little far.

[Rugnuts]

I know we sometimes say on here that "Stupidity should be painful, if not fatal", but I think you're taking that statement a little far.

well im not saying im right. but when it comes to that fine line people always talk about, i admit my line is a lot farther over than most others.

a 8 yr old uses a replica toy gun to rob a store. there is a off duty cop in one of the aisles. he pulls his gun, and demands the kid to "drop it". the kid turns and aims it at the cop... I SAY SHOOT! i dont care how old he is. and there is no responsibility put on the store that sells the gun, which is what this thread is about.

[Gratiot]

...and there is no responsibility put on the store that sells the gun, which is what this thread is about.

In this case there is, as legally defined, and the store owner's himself and his counsel have admitted they violated the regulation. 

I wonder though, if in addition to possibly saving children's lives, if this wasn't put in place to avoid or redirect the potential of future lawsuits against the cities police department... in the event of an incident like what recently happened in Texas.

[Rugnuts]

In this case there is, as legally defined, and the store owner's himself and his counsel have admitted they violated the regulation. 

yeah i understand. i was stating my opinion that there shouldnt be a legal responsibilty placed on the store. the law oversteps a boundary that i dont like to see crossed.

just like in this morning's paper. a bar was sued by teh family of a guy who died in a drunk driving accident. the victim was not the drunk guy. even though the drunk guy had booze in the vehicle. open beer cans and full cans. the bar should not be a defendant.