Author Topic: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions  (Read 4389 times)

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Offline Splashdown

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2012, 03:30:51 PM »
Thanks for the welcome. I see everyone here is starting at a completely different place than I am. Fundamentally, I don't believe this country was founded on the idea of individual freedom, but on the idea of the common good. And yes, I believe that everyone has the right to a decent standard of living. I also think, no, that's wrong, I KNOW that Jesus of Nazareth would agree more with me and WelshTerrier, whose response to me I posted, than with you all.

No matter. There's some food for thought here. My thanks to everyone for their input.

Please show me in the founding documents where "common good" trumps indidividual freedom.

Also, Jesus of Nazareth, as far as I have read, never really spoke of temporal kingdoms and governments. In fact, when offered, he refused to run earthly kingdoms. I'm thinking you've reduced the Son of God to a bit of a strawman here. 

If you can post where Jesus said governments rather than individuals should run charities, I'd appreciate it. I'm thinking that "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is much more in line with Ciaphas--almost verbatim--than Jesus.
Let nothing trouble you,
Let nothing frighten you. 
All things are passing;
God never changes.
Patience attains all that it strives for.
He who has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2012, 09:11:55 PM »
Founded on the idea of common good?

I think not.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2012, 11:39:28 PM »
Thanks for the welcome. I see everyone here is starting at a completely different place than I am. Fundamentally, I don't believe this country was founded on the idea of individual freedom, but on the idea of the common good. And yes, I believe that everyone has the right to a decent standard of living. I also think, no, that's wrong, I KNOW that Jesus of Nazareth would agree more with me and WelshTerrier, whose response to me I posted, than with you all.

No matter. There's some food for thought here. My thanks to everyone for their input.

Welcome to CC.

I imagine you've asked yourself the question, "Why is everyone here starting a different place than I am? Why do they think this country was founded on the idea of individual freedom rather than the idea of the common good?"

You've seen the answers, but let me offer another.

Federalist #9 and #10, penned by Hamilton and Madison respectively, prize individual liberty to the extent that representative democracy is favored over direct democracy. It would appear that individual rights trump mob rule. You simply can't trust the masses to do the right thing. Groupthink was a phenomenon seen then, as it is now.

I don't see a lot in there about the so-called "common good." Individual liberty was the basis on which the Constitution was written. Everything else pales in comparison.

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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2012, 06:58:39 AM »
Hey, I really like the Socialist form of "For the Common Good"...shoot, imprison, forced labor camps for the lazy, worthless, resource absorbing blood sucking leeches. :-)
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

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Offline NHSparky

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 08:05:59 AM »
Thanks for the welcome. I see everyone here is starting at a completely different place than I am. Fundamentally, I don't believe this country was founded on the idea of individual freedom, but on the idea of the common good. And yes, I believe that everyone has the right to a decent standard of living. I also think, no, that's wrong, I KNOW that Jesus of Nazareth would agree more with me and WelshTerrier, whose response to me I posted, than with you all.

No matter. There's some food for thought here. My thanks to everyone for their input.

The Constitution and Declaration of Independence would disagree with you.  So would the philosophies and writings of Jefferson, Madison, Adams, et al.

Nobody has a RIGHT to anyone else's labors, which is all socialism boils down to.  Rights are God-given.  OPPORTUNITY is the thing that should be equal.  You cannot guarantee equal results.  And decent?  I'm guessing you've spent some time on the pond, so you know (or SHOULD know) what REAL misery is.  The poor here are inconvenienced, not truly impoverished.

The only thing socialism ensures is equal misery.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »
Please show me in the founding documents where "common good" trumps indidividual freedom.

Also, Jesus of Nazareth, as far as I have read, never really spoke of temporal kingdoms and governments. In fact, when offered, he refused to run earthly kingdoms. I'm thinking you've reduced the Son of God to a bit of a strawman here. 

If you can post where Jesus said governments rather than individuals should run charities, I'd appreciate it. I'm thinking that "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is much more in line with Ciaphas--almost verbatim--than Jesus.
I betcha a Hi5 he never answers you.

It feels like he was here more to post a rant than to discuss. In spite of his snarky first response to Reb, people here have been rather nice to him.

Mr Barbarian, if you want a discussion, people are more than willing to discuss. But it goes both ways. If someone asks you a polite question, then an answer is expected.

and a bit of advice. That opening statement was a wall of text. I'm not reading a book from a first time poster.
make a concise point and stick to it. open new threads for different topics. This nit pick was brought to you in the name of love. peace out mannn.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2012, 08:04:40 AM »
So the captains of industry with their glad-handing, back-slapping deals done in smoke-filled rooms for their benefit without regard to the common man will now become the apparatchiks with their glad-handing, back-slapping deals done in smoke-filled rooms for their benefit without regard to the common man but it will be different this time because some people wrote some words that will make people suddenly act nice and moral unlike the millions of other appeals to do the same over the last ten thousand years of history.

Where do I sign-up...

...to shoot people naive enough to buy into this shit?

Tell me: how will the worker's lot be improved when there is monopolized industry management? There will be no wage-competition between employers because there will be only one employer: the state. Workers cannot seek a different job or attempt to work for themselves. Consumers cannot boycott disfavored firms and send their business elsewhere. Inefficiencies are not corrected, only funded with more vigor. The people cannot even vote out a bad government administration because socialism even monoplizes politics.

So in the end the worker is left in unsafe, low-wage conditions, making shit nobody wants, for prices that make no sense to anybody and nobody can do a damn thing about it through the democracy of the dollar or the ballot.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 08:38:54 AM »
You just want to exchange one master for an even worse one.

Succinct, to the point, and correct...except that there is an awful lot of overlap between the two sets of masters.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline Rugnuts

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 08:43:05 AM »
Tell me: how will the worker's lot be improved when there is monopolized industry management? There will be no wage-competition between employers because there will be only one employer: the state. Workers cannot seek a different job or attempt to work for themselves. Consumers cannot boycott disfavored firms and send their business elsewhere. Inefficiencies are not corrected, only funded with more vigor. The people cannot even vote out a bad government administration because socialism even monoplizes politics.

So in the end the worker is left in unsafe, low-wage conditions, making shit nobody wants, for prices that make no sense to anybody and nobody can do a damn thing about it through the democracy of the dollar or the ballot.
now that was good interpretation
^5

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2012, 08:48:37 AM »
Please show me in the founding documents where "common good" trumps indidividual freedom.

Certainly not in the sense of allowing the State taking away individual freedom to provide for it, or pick the pocket of some for the benefit of others; direct provision was made for "The common defense," but that is a whole different kettle of fish.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline Wineslob

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2012, 10:03:28 AM »
I agree with you on Ms. Pelosi. I don't suppose you think the Federal Government is practically owned by the corporations. I do. To me, Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are every bit as problematic as John Boehner and Dick Cheney.


Seriously?    :rotf:
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Offline Carl

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2012, 04:57:17 AM »
It would appear that the OP did not want to deal with the opinions he asked for.

Offline LC EFA

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2012, 06:07:29 AM »
It would appear that the OP did not want to deal with the opinions he asked for.

A swoop and poop !

Luckily it was small and relatively odour free.

Offline Ohio Barbarian

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2012, 10:41:10 PM »
It would appear that the OP did not want to deal with the opinions he asked for.

No, I'm grateful for the responses. Even if I don't agree with them. Y'all are still my countrymen. Whether I like it or not. And whether you like me or not.

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2012, 10:51:18 PM »
Well, You came back.

Please feel free to answer a few questions some of our members here asked you.

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2012, 11:06:12 PM »
Hmmm. Gone again.
I guess it's true. The words "rude" and "socialist" go together.

Offline Rebel

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2012, 12:13:01 AM »
Hmmm. Gone again.
I guess it's true. The words "rude" and "socialist" go together.

I was thinking more of "clueless" and "socialist".
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

Quote
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Ohio Barbarian

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2012, 01:02:16 AM »
Well, You came back.

Please feel free to answer a few questions some of our members here asked you.

Are you sure? Do you really want me to engage with you? Be very careful of what you ask for. You just might get it, and I doubt the mods here, who seem honorable, would ban me for it. I'm really pretty good when I try. Do you want me to, here?

I've held back because this is Conservative Cave, because I respect this site, and because I am not some flamebaiter trolling for attention. I'm the same person under the same name at Fire Dog Lake and Left Underground. I'm not your typical latte' liberal Democratic Party hack. Hell, I don't even vote for Democrats! Much.

But I am no Internet coward, I am just as patriotic as you(if not more so, we probably have different definitions), and I love a challenge. If you really want me to debate you, I will. Just please don't whine. I got enough of that on DU.


Offline FreeBorn

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2012, 01:49:20 AM »
(Going Vesta long post mode, be forewarned)

"Ohio barbarian"~ LOL! I can picture you sitting in your parent's basement, community college hero for humanity that you think you are. How are your grades? (wishing you the best, BTW) -or- you are a brainwashed union dues paying drone who has no clue where all that dues money is going, you just lap up the propaganda and believe every syllable.

You are apparently of the assumption that for people to enjoy the fruits of their own labors is wrong. You feel that "wealth" is evil. Money should be something which is defined as finite, only so much of it to go around and that which goes around should be dictated by an overseeing body. An overseeing body which exists in a state of grace beyond reproach, no doubt for they are immaculate in their intentions.

You are a fool.

That's not how reality works. Socialism is evil, not freedom. Socialism, communism, rub-your-nutbagism, what ever they are calling it this week is evil. Freedom is breath and life, that is capitalism. Socialism/communism is regulation, confiscation, suffocation, drowning, strangulation, death.

Everywhere that free markets exist humanity prospers. Everywhere that overregulation exists suffering prospers while an exclusive elite reap a massively disproportionate harvest from their serf class which they micromanage with an oppressive and totalitarian posture over trade.

You are an idiot.

Like the serfs of old Europe who toiled and half starved as they worried over providing enough harvest to the Duke in the Manor House and doffed their hats if they happened to cross his path in the village while they schlepped along on foot as he passed on a great steed you see not the shit end of the stick you are being handed but you keep voting for it.

You are a retard.

You dope smoking hippies are all the same. You union "us-first-and-fvck-everybody-else" types are all the same. You 19 year old idealistic "Marx was awesome" types are all the same. None of you get it.

"It" defined~

Good and evil. It is that simple.

What would a man do if he had charge of his own affairs? His will. He works, he gets paid, he invests his proceeds into the future of his children, his own legacy, he is free.

What would a man do if he had to face another man's will put upon him? Fight.

("oh it's not always that", bullshit, those afflicted are reduced to resisting in ways which allow them to survive, yet the core of their existence is defined by resistance to the regime, not to the furtherance of themselves in the education of their children, their beliefs/regional culture or free trade commerce for their own gain).

That's what we have seen in every socialist/communist/rub-your-nut-bag state that ever existed.

China is going more and more capitalist every day, more and more. They cannot contain their people any longer. Wages are rising there. More and more American companies that went there are coming back to the U.S.

China is burgeoning for freedom and the regime will not be able to contain the masses much longer. No, there will not be a Chinese civil war but there will be a continuation of the trend towards capitalism that ensued with the British evacuation of Hong Kong.

Freedom has a way of spreading. Evil has a way of leaving people with longing for freedom.

Socialism/Communism/Rub-your-nutbagism or whatever they are calling it this week has a way of installing the noble class over the serfs -WITH NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER- with the promise that everyone will be "comfortable".

It is a lie.



"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin; And how do you tell an anti-communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin." ~Ronald Reagan

Offline Carl

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2012, 05:48:06 AM »
Are you sure? Do you really want me to engage with you? Be very careful of what you ask for. You just might get it, and I doubt the mods here, who seem honorable, would ban me for it. I'm really pretty good when I try. Do you want me to, here?

I've held back because this is Conservative Cave, because I respect this site, and because I am not some flamebaiter trolling for attention. I'm the same person under the same name at Fire Dog Lake and Left Underground. I'm not your typical latte' liberal Democratic Party hack. Hell, I don't even vote for Democrats! Much.

But I am no Internet coward, I am just as patriotic as you(if not more so, we probably have different definitions), and I love a challenge. If you really want me to debate you, I will. Just please don't whine. I got enough of that on DU.



The first thing you need to do is show us any evidence in the founding documents or the writings of any of the founding fathers where they were establishing an independent union on the basis of the "common good".
Not in a  generalized way where one takes the term "the pursuit of happiness" and claims that means they wanted government to provide all for citizenry via confiscation of personal or private property.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2012, 07:36:51 AM »
Are you sure? Do you really want me to engage with you? Be very careful of what you ask for. You just might get it, and I doubt the mods here, who seem honorable, would ban me for it. I'm really pretty good when I try. Do you want me to, here?

I've held back because this is Conservative Cave, because I respect this site, and because I am not some flamebaiter trolling for attention. I'm the same person under the same name at Fire Dog Lake and Left Underground. I'm not your typical latte' liberal Democratic Party hack. Hell, I don't even vote for Democrats! Much.

But I am no Internet coward, I am just as patriotic as you(if not more so, we probably have different definitions), and I love a challenge. If you really want me to debate you, I will. Just please don't whine. I got enough of that on DU.



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Offline Eupher

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2012, 09:05:29 AM »
 :popcorn:

Bring it on, OB!  :-)
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2012, 09:57:05 AM »
The first thing you need to do is show us any evidence in the founding documents or the writings of any of the founding fathers where they were establishing an independent union on the basis of the "common good".
Not in a  generalized way where one takes the term "the pursuit of happiness" and claims that means they wanted government to provide all for citizenry via confiscation of personal or private property.

Carl, the problem with most leftists is they take out of context that little phrase in the Preamble to the Constitution, "promote the general welfare", not realizing (or more likely, not caring) that it has nothing to do with welfare in a modern sense.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2012, 01:44:30 PM »
Are you sure? Do you really want me to engage with you? Be very careful of what you ask for. You just might get it,
YES! We love our liberal pansy chew toys. No one here is afraid of a liberal opinion or debate.
Most libs chicken out. Are you chicken? Cause you've been looking that way.


and I doubt the mods here, who seem honorable, would ban me for it.
No one will ban you for being liberal. All you've been doing is showing up, saying something snarky and disapearing. --here's a hint. If you want a polite conversation, start out by being polite.

I'm really pretty good when I try. Do you want me to, here?
I'm so scared...NOT. Yes answer a few questions: PARTICIPATE. Some people here asked you polite questions. answer them politely. Its not that hard.

I've held back because this is Conservative Cave, because I respect this site,
Hmmm. Libs respecting conservative opinions. Yeah sure. But OK, show us you respect this site by answering the questions with respect.

and because I am not some flamebaiter trolling for attention.
That remains to be seen, but lets give this a try. This little post of yours comes across as condenscending and rude, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and let you prove you can act in a civilized manner.

My responses are in Republican red. Feel free to answer a few questions in a civil manner.
just scroll thru this thread and answer the questions. Its not that hard.

One last bit of advice: a wall of text is not an answer. be concise. stick to the point.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 01:46:49 PM by Mr Mannn »

Offline Rebel

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Re: A Socialist Invites Your Opinions
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2012, 10:53:57 PM »
No, I'm grateful for the responses. Even if I don't agree with them. Y'all are still my countrymen. Whether I like it or not. And whether you like me or not.

You are not part of my "countrymen" and no, I don't give a **** if you served. This is a conservative board. MANY of us served. Your support of an ideology that would destroy everything this nation was based upon has led me to this opinion.
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

Quote
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site