Author Topic: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...  (Read 3745 times)

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Offline Trip

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One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« on: December 22, 2011, 05:10:24 AM »
Throughout the debates thus far, I've been struck by one thing that is conspicuously missing.


We have a bunch of constitutional efforts up for the Repubicans this year, with greater emphasis on the Constitution than every before, as a result of the Tea Parties and transgressions by the Pelosi Congress.

What is missing despite the numerous references to Romneycare, is the fact that RomneyCare is as fundamentally unconstitutional as Obamacare is.  Romney has even justified his state's health care plan by the greater number of children covered now, as opposed to before, as if this somehow justified violating the individual, unalienable rights of each and every citizen in that state.  

There have even been References by Romney and Perry to the states having 'fifty different attempts"  at health care, as if this were something legitimized by the Constitution.  Obviously they're referencing the 10th Amendment and 'states rights'. But the 10th Amendment does not serve as license to the states to violate rights that are innate to the individual citizen, and nowhere a "power" of the states themselves. 

Contrary to some beliefs "the people" and their rights are referenced in the 10th Amendment, and that amendment nowhere indicates a precedence to the state authority (Powers) over the people. 


It seems many in government (and outside government) believe our rights are subject to the whims of of either the state or federal government, and all the 10th Amendment does is give the state the right to rape our freedoms, rather than the federal government.  If this is true, then we have no such "unalienable rights" at all, because there is nothing more innate to the person than the determination of their own care and maintenance, and this authority cannot reasonably be taken over by the states. 

Curiously even Bachmann, the "tea party candidate' and involved in the tea party caucus, has not spoken up about this glaring distortion being acquiesced to by essentially every one of the candidates.   

So is Bachmann remaining silent because Romney has such a strong position for the nomination, and she doesn't want to take on a controversial issue, particularly one already established in Massachusetts (no gain)?     


Or perhaps you believe I'm wrong in the intent of the 10th?  If so, then what good are those 'unalienable' individual rights?
 


« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:24:57 AM by Trip »

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 09:22:50 AM »
It's difficult to say, there is also the Ninth Amendment, which reserves broad unstated rights to the People rather than the States, and the fit between the Ninth and the Tenth is largely a legal terra incognita.  The States have the 'Police power' which is not merely law enforcement but the broad and vaguely-defined power to do things necessary for the safety and welfare of their populace.  Virtually all of the legal precedent that does not deal with Amendments 1-8, 13, 14, and habeus corpus (The more or less enumerated individual rights) deals with the State vs. Federal relationship, not what the other reserved but unidentified powers of the People might be.  I suspect the relationship is just so poorly-defined legally that nobody is comfortable opening up the can of worms, especially in the format of a debate.
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Offline Trip

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 10:44:39 AM »
It's difficult to say, there is also the Ninth Amendment, which reserves broad unstated rights to the People rather than the States, and the fit between the Ninth and the Tenth is largely a legal terra incognita.  The States have the 'Police power' which is not merely law enforcement but the broad and vaguely-defined power to do things necessary for the safety and welfare of their populace.  Virtually all of the legal precedent that does not deal with Amendments 1-8, 13, 14, and habeus corpus (The more or less enumerated individual rights) deals with the State vs. Federal relationship, not what the other reserved but unidentified powers of the People might be.  I suspect the relationship is just so poorly-defined legally that nobody is comfortable opening up the can of worms, especially in the format of a debate.
\


Neither the 9th nor the 10th Amendments actually confer any power to the state or to the citizens, or to the states. Those powers already existed and are not created by the amendments, just recognized by them, which is why the 10th Amendment can be all of two sentences in length.

The 10th Amendment is not an authority to take any rights away from the citizens that are so innate as their own health care. The whole porpose of those unalienable rights to self, and one's personal papers ande effects, is to keep government, state and federal, from intruding on our freedoms.  The states do not have a right to dictate our health care, and certainly not by any authority provided by the Constitution, which is intended to only detail the federal government itself.


Offline CG6468

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 10:59:55 AM »
The States have the 'Police power' which is not merely law enforcement but the broad and vaguely-defined power to do things necessary for the safety and welfare of their populace.

Our safety and welfare are determined by those engaging in such things.

What's wrong with that picture?
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Offline Trip

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 11:37:06 AM »

Sure, we could continue to allow states like Massachusetts to dictate health care, particularly since 3/4 of Massachusetts' citizens approve, according to Romney.  Yet it is not only that 1/4 that do not approve whose innate rights are taken from them, but also those other 3/4 who are alienating a right that is deemed to be unalienable.

Overall, in allowing Massachusetts to stand, we are giving up our very freedoms and making the very cornerstone of the Constitution, individual freedoms, entirely irrelevant.  This should alarm every single Amercan, and certainly not calm them with the phrase 'states rights', which this no way is.




Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 01:30:57 PM »
Neither the 9th nor the 10th Amendments actually confer any power to the state or to the citizens, or to the states.

Nor did I say otherwise.  Enumerated =/= conferred.  However, as soon as you or CG start talking about 'Innate,' the next question that arises is 'Well, wotdahell does THAT mean - which rights are innate to which entity?' - and the only clear answer that doesn't devolve into pointless squabbling is that the powers enumerated for one entity or another are at least off the debate table.

I swear, despite your long absence, you are as much into pointless rhetorical grandstanding as ever.  You ask questions not because you are interested in getting actual answers or relevant information, but as a mere prelude to make sure you have an audience for your Constitutional bloviating.
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Offline Trip

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 04:19:34 PM »
Nor did I say otherwise.  Enumerated =/= conferred.  However, as soon as you or CG start talking about 'Innate,' the next question that arises is 'Well, wotdahell does THAT mean - which rights are innate to which entity?' - and the only clear answer that doesn't devolve into pointless squabbling is that the powers enumerated for one entity or another are at least off the debate table.

I swear, despite your long absence, you are as much into pointless rhetorical grandstanding as ever.  You ask questions not because you are interested in getting actual answers or relevant information, but as a mere prelude to make sure you have an audience for your Constitutional bloviating.

Wow, it didn't take long for you to personalize your response, did it! And while you didn't say otherwise, your argument strongly implied otherwise, but i left you to step in it, as you have. 

Not only is it "pointless rhetoric", but it's "pointless rhetorical grandstanding"! How cheesy is that!  Yes, let us talk about pointless,insipid rhetoric.

Someone has to be one hell of an ignorant, statist RINO, to imagine that consideration of our individual rights, the KEYSTONE of this country's constitution and principles, involves any sort of "pointless rhetorical grandstanding".

 I don't want an "audience', you  wind bag, but what I do want is that once free people of this country actually think about what our government is doing, and the implications of those actions, rather than just facilitating the further undermining of this country. After watching the first series of debates, and their address of Romneycare, anyone with any degree of sense and depth should be asking themselves why it would okay for the states to do what the federal government cannot, particularly in this regard, creating an obligation where literally there is no action by the individual at all!

 
Given your leap to this personalizaiton, it is clear you believe that Massachusetts has the "right" (power) and perhaps even the obligation  to make the socialist demand of its citizens that everyone buy healthcare (and some support the costs of the others).  Yet if this were true, how is it that this country did not need  any such dictate of healthcare for the 200+ years prior to Romneycare?

INNATE

While I'm mildly curious who "CG" is, just to get some insight into the barb you believe you've stuck me with, the fact is I really don't give a damn about your insular backyard mentality and its pointless references.

The relevance of "innate", and to which entity to which it belongs, really shouldn't be all that much of a mystery, except for to current-day progressive statists.  Quite obviously something as personal as the care and maintenance of one's own body, is an innate right and responsibility to each and every individual themself!

NO ONE could possibly imagine that this care and maintenance of citizen's bodies is "INNATE" to each various States of this country, unless one has  a very twisted statist progressive socialist ideology, and really doesn't believe in any sort of individual rights whatsoever, but rather in collective obligations and directed mandates upon our lives.

Perhaps each of those States do own the individuals within its borders after all, eh? And our so-called indivdual "right's"  are nothing more then the choice of what other state we might flee to in order to avoide the tyranny of our fellow man?  This is what both Romney and Perry would have us believe, that the fifty states are just a pelthora in testing experimentation grounds where bold new ways to deny freedoms might be found. Such a belief has this country's founders spinning in their graves.


However since this is only pointless rhetorical grandstanding, I will assume that you have no need to provide further input into this consideration, and you particularly will not provide any constitutional rationale for your belief.  But if you were to stick around, I'd ask you on what terms you actually imagine yourself any sort of conservative... if that is actually the case.
 

 

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 04:27:25 PM »
Oxygen bandit.
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Offline Trip

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 04:39:14 PM »
Oxygen bandit.

I'm betting we discovered someone who actually believes Romney is any sort of a sane choice.

That's it, isn't it, the 'reason' for your outburst?  You're one of those elusive Romney supporters I haven't been able to find anywhere .., the guy who isn't any sort of Conservative at all, and who is undeniably a statist.  No amount of "oxygen" is gonna help you make that a reasonable choice.


« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:00:33 PM by Trip »

Offline Lisa4Catholics

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 04:58:11 PM »
Nor did I say otherwise.  Enumerated =/= conferred.  However, as soon as you or CG start talking about 'Innate,' the next question that arises is 'Well, wotdahell does THAT mean - which rights are innate to which entity?' - and the only clear answer that doesn't devolve into pointless squabbling is that the powers enumerated for one entity or another are at least off the debate table.

I swear, despite your long absence, you are as much into pointless rhetorical grandstanding as ever.  You ask questions not because you are interested in getting actual answers or relevant information, but as a mere prelude to make sure you have an audience for your Constitutional bloviating.
:argh:Learn some manners will you? :mad:

Offline Chris

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »
I'd ask you on what terms you actually imagine yourself any sort of conservative... if that is actually the case.
:argh:Learn some manners will you? :mad:
Since you and your discordian friends signed up here, every one of the threads you have participated in has degenerated into this ******* pissing contest of who is better than who.  Knock it off.  We are tired of it now, and we were damn tired of it six months ago.

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 06:07:46 PM »
:argh:Learn some manners will you? :mad:

Please bite me.
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Offline dutch508

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 06:08:28 PM »
Please bite me.

No, no. Please don't bite me.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:05 PM »
No, no. Please don't bite me.

That works too...

:cheersmate:
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 06:36:34 PM »
I'm betting we discovered someone who actually believes Romney is any sort of a sane choice.

That's it, isn't it, the 'reason' for your outburst?  You're one of those elusive Romney supporters I haven't been able to find anywhere .., the guy who isn't any sort of Conservative at all, and who is undeniably a statist.  No amount of "oxygen" is gonna help you make that a reasonable choice.




Trip isn't the world ending somewhere in Wyoming?   Don't you have super-top-secret-squirrel info to secure and leak from your inside contacts? 

For the record DAT doesn't support Romney and never did.  I did last time around for the nomination.   I honestly couldn't even tell you who I am voting for this time around.   Will have to see who is left standing when the primaries hit MA. 

At the end of the day though it's anyone but Obama.   A real conservative of course would  understand that.   




Offline Chris

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Re: One Thing Missing From THe Debates...
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 06:41:03 PM »
And this thread is done.  Thanks for playing, kids.  It's been fun.
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