Author Topic: horsepower  (Read 24366 times)

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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2011, 07:39:30 AM »
I think not. The numbers on the cab are not reversed or backwards. I think the photo is OK.

Yeah, after I wrote that, I saw, oooops.

I was doing some adding on an adding machine, and goofed up.

Sorry.  You're right; it doesn't appear reversed.

And since it's not reversed, it's not C&NW.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2011, 07:44:42 AM »
Yeah, after I wrote that, I saw, oooops.

I was doing some adding on an adding machine, and goofed up.

Sorry.  You're right; it doesn't appear reversed.

And since it's not reversed, it's not C&NW.

We may never really know, Frank. We do know it's not C&NW, however.

It's another one of life's mysteries!  :-)
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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2011, 07:54:53 AM »
We may never really know, Frank. We do know it's not C&NW, however.

It's another one of life's mysteries!  :-)

I'll find a steam railway fan message board, and try to get someone from it to come over here to chat.

You know, sir, I did that in the early days of conservativecave, when I went around looking for potential members.  I'd posted something about sunken ships, and went to a message board for sunken ship enthusiasts; one guy, a professor from some college in Georgia who knew the subject like the back of his hand came over and explained things.  He made, oh, maybe 50 posts, over a few weeks, and as everything seemed satisfactorily explained and as he wasn't into politics, he left. 

I'll bet I can do it again, but not today.  Maybe Friday.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2011, 08:52:31 AM »
Now my question for the science and technology guys.

One can only speculate, but for what purpose was such a locomotive designed?

If it couldn't go more than 40 mph even in its prime, while it may have worked other places, it would've been too slow to begin with, on the Union Pacific.

Slow, heavy freights.  Wheel diameter is like basic leverage or gear ratios:  For the same power and stroke from the pistons, larger drive wheel diameter = higher speed + lower torque (Or power at the meeting of rail and drive wheel), and smaller drive wheel diameter = lower speed + higher torque.

Yeah, not a switcher.  Switchers generally had no lead or trail wheels, at low speeds on tight turns in the yards, they are an unnecessary impediment.  The purpose of the lead wheels is to assist with tracking at higher speed on open road, and the main purpose of the trailing wheels is to support the weight of the cab and firebox.  Both help distribute the weight of the locomotive to keep the drive wheels within the maximum axle load limits, of course.

I believe at least one of the big Western roads, AT&SF, SP or UP, did have a few 0-10-0 switchers to handle the long strings in their biggest yards, but 0-6-0s and 0-4-0s were far and away the typical switchers.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2011, 10:17:51 AM »
Regarding
Quote
UP 5511 is a 2-10-2 steam locomotive. This locomotive is very rarely ever heard of, because it was never donated for public display. This locomotive is reportedly in excellent condition, and a restoration probably would not take more than a couple of weeks. The only thing keeping it from being restored is that it would be limited to 40 mph (64 km/h) or lower due to its large cylinders and small drivers. As of August 2004, this locomotive is being offered for sale by UP. It is currently in storage at the roundhouse where 844 & 3985 are repaired in Cheyenne, Wyoming

I humbly submit the following information:

Quote
UP 5511
In its last years of use, 5511 was used as a stationary boiler at Ogden, then at Green River. Such use was very hard on boilers as they seldom received blow-downs and in general were not watched as closely as they were when used as a steam locomotive. Its piston rods were cut (see photo on the right) when it was towed from Green River to Cheyenne for storage and possible scrapping back in 1968. During that trip it developed a "hot box" had to be set out to be repacked. Cutting the piston rods was standard procedure when preparing a locomotive for the scrapper's torch. The drive rods would be left on so that the drivers would be balanced during transport but the main rods would be severed so that there would be no chance for the pistons to bind which could cause a derailment. 5511 arrived in Cheyenne but was fortunately saved from the cutters torch possibly because it was featured in the movie Last of the Giants made by UP about the Big Boy locomotives. 4-6-0 1243 (which had been towed from Rawlins in 1968) was also featured in that movie and was also stored in the UP roundhouse for many years before being sent to Omaha for display.

I have heard conflicting information regarding 5511's current condition. One report stated that 5511 is not in very good mechanical condition. The report stated that most of the cab appliances have been removed (although they could have been removed by UP staff, I don't know). It went on to say that since returning from Green River, 5511 had not had a hydro test or any kind of boiler inspection and its condition was a bit of a mystery. A recent report stated that the steam crew looked at the boiler and "ran all sorts of tests" and concluded that it would not take much work to restore it. Whatever its current condition, as a candidate for restoration it is very poor. It was built as a "drag" locomotive. It has a very long wheel base, longer than that of 844. Contrary to what some people have told me, Steve Lee of the UP steam program has informed me that the center driver is NOT blind. It has friction bearings (which is another strike against any restoration efforts). It has a small tender, limiting its range, and finally its large cylinders and small drivers would limit its speed. In service this class of locomotives was limited to 45 mph. In all, it would not be a very useful locomotive to have running. In 2004 I heard that this locomotive would be offered for sale.

Some more info

and re:"drag locomotives"....

Quote
This style of locomotive was designed to be used in general freight service, working slowly along the line setting out and picking up cars from sidings along the way.

Drag locomotives
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2011, 10:35:45 AM »
Not a steam locomotive, but a sort of old time classic, that I saw during my younger days in Western Springs, Illinois. That village is a suburb of Chicago and is on the main line of the CB&Q.

The Burlington Zephyr:

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Offline TVDOC

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2011, 10:52:11 AM »
A bit of information for any here having satellite or cable television.  "RFD-TV" (a network specializing in rural, farm, and ranching interests)........airs a one hour show every Monday between 5 and 6 PM (Central), that runs nothing but film and stories of steam locomotives in the modern era, restorations, promotional runs, railroad history, and upcoming steam events.

Lots of great footage, and overall, pretty interesting for railroad buffs.

doc
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2011, 11:03:42 AM »
A bit of information for any here having satellite or cable television.  "RFD-TV" (a network specializing in rural, farm, and ranching interests)........airs a one hour show every Monday between 5 and 6 PM (Central), that runs nothing but film and stories of steam locomotives in the modern era, restorations, promotional runs, railroad history, and upcoming steam events.

Lots of great footage, and overall, pretty interesting for railroad buffs.

doc

We had that channel with Dish Network, but now with Comcast it is not available in their lineup. I really liked RFD-TV. They also broadcast some good cooking programs.

Trivia: What does RFD mean?
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2011, 11:04:55 AM »
What a great thread. My own love for steam locos started when I was roughly 4. My father was working for US Plywood at the time in Cupertino Ca. and landed a sale of T111 (I think) plywood for a narrow gauge railroad being built in Felton Ca. This was and is Roaring Camp. The plywood was used for the open air cars being built.

Being a rail nut he became friends with the man building his "dream" much like Walt Disney but on a vastly smaller scale. Many times my father would bring me along to see how the little railroad was coming along. We would get "personal" rides up to the corkscrew trestle being built (since burned down by an arsonist). I still have some very fond memories of the rides up the hill.

The railroad uses 2-3 types of logging locos; Shays, Climaxes, and Heislers. I'm not sure if all three are actually in use.

Here's the Dixiana Shay still in use today:




[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwfvNgopka0&feature=related[/youtube]


Oh, Frank, these engines have ALOT of the "guts" exposed and are absolutely fascinating to watch run.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:10:54 AM by Wineslob »
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »
We had that channel with Dish Network, but now with Comcast it is not available in their lineup. I really liked RFD-TV. They also broadcast some good cooking programs.

Trivia: What does RFD mean?

"Rural Free Delivery"......from the Post Office........

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2011, 11:13:43 AM »
A bit of information for any here having satellite or cable television.  "RFD-TV" (a network specializing in rural, farm, and ranching interests)........airs a one hour show every Monday between 5 and 6 PM (Central), that runs nothing but film and stories of steam locomotives in the modern era, restorations, promotional runs, railroad history, and upcoming steam events.

Lots of great footage, and overall, pretty interesting for railroad buffs.

doc
The local PBS station carries a similar program, but with a heavy focus on model railroads  It's called 'Tracks Ahead' and is hosted by Spencer Christian.  I don't know if it's still being produced, but it's on every Saturday morning.
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2011, 11:34:27 AM »
"Rural Free Delivery"......from the Post Office........

doc

Correct, Doc!

I have a short but favorite and simple video (I'm Just a Farmer, Plain and Simple) I copied from RFD when it was still available. They no longer offer it, unfortunately, and I don't know how or even if I can put it here directly from my computer. Photobucket has a problem with it.

Here are the words, but the video is much better.

Quote
Often seen and heard on RFD-TV

I’m Just a Farmer, Plain and Simple

~By Bobby Collier~


I'm just a farmer,
Plain and simple.
Not of a royal birth
But rather, a worker of the earth.
I know not of riches
But rather, of patches on my britches
I know of draught and rain,
Of pleasure and pain.
I know of the good and the bad,
The happy and the sad.
I am a man of emotions.
A man who loves this land,
And the beauty of its sand.
I know of a spring's fresh flow
And autumn's golden glow,
Of a newborn calf's hesitation,
And the eagle's destination.
I know of tall pines,
And long, waiting lines.
Of the warmth of campfires,
And the agony of flat tires.
But I am a man who loves his job
And the life I live.
I am a man who works with God,
I cannot succeed without His help,
For you see,
I'm just a farmer
Plain and simple.

Just a Farmer

PS - Sorry for the thread drift.

Illinois, south of the gun controllers in Chi town

Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2011, 11:40:50 AM »
Wineslob, I could watch those Shay locomotives all day. Everything seemed to move with the geared locomotives!
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Offline Wineslob

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2011, 01:47:16 PM »
Wineslob, I could watch those Shay locomotives all day. Everything seemed to move with the geared locomotives!


More geared locos:


[youtube=425,350][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-XBDOLA-As&feature=related/youtube]



[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYfT0_PmbWo[/youtube]



[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyqd8R0KPlg&feature=related[/youtube]


I love the sounds these old Iron Horses make, especially the whistles.



« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:53:07 PM by Wineslob »
“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”

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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2011, 05:38:51 PM »
Slow, heavy freights.  Wheel diameter is like basic leverage or gear ratios:  For the same power and stroke from the pistons, larger drive wheel diameter = higher speed + lower torque (Or power at the meeting of rail and drive wheel), and smaller drive wheel diameter = lower speed + higher torque.

Yeah, not a switcher.  Switchers generally had no lead or trail wheels, at low speeds on tight turns in the yards, they are an unnecessary impediment.  The purpose of the lead wheels is to assist with tracking at higher speed on open road, and the main purpose of the trailing wheels is to support the weight of the cab and firebox.  Both help distribute the weight of the locomotive to keep the drive wheels within the maximum axle load limits, of course.

I believe at least one of the big Western roads, AT&SF, SP or UP, did have a few 0-10-0 switchers to handle the long strings in their biggest yards, but 0-6-0s and 0-4-0s were far and away the typical switchers.

It appears the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe had a bunch of them, as did too the Reading in Pennsylvania.

To be honest, I'd never heard of a 2-10-2, and it's not listed anywhere in my handy-dandy guide of railway locomotives.



--from the Pennsylvania Railroad.

To my mind, it looks kind of unstable, as if it's about to tip over at either end.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2011, 05:45:07 PM »
Wineslob, I could watch those Shay locomotives all day. Everything seemed to move with the geared locomotives!

Uh huh.

You know, those who actually worked with steam locomotives some time ago departed from this time and place.

And those who can remember seeing them in real-life working action are alas slowly heading that way, too.

There is however a new generation of steam enthusiasts; a generation that has no memories of, or nostalgia for, steam locomotives.  This younger crowd is attracted to them for the reason you stated; it's a fascinating thing to watch--and to watch for hours--a machine with all its moving parts out where one can see them (and hence understand them), a machine that actually seems to breathe human-like animation and life.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2011, 07:47:48 PM »
Here's yet another most peculiar one, a 2-8-8-4:



Quote
Only one 2-8-8-8-4 was ever built, a Mallet-type for the Virginian Railway in 1916. Built by Baldwin Locomotive Works, it became the only example of their class XA, so named due to the experimental nature of the locomotive.

Quote
The XA was unable to sustain a speed greater than five miles an hour, since the six cylinders could easily consume more steam than the boiler could produce. The tender had a four-wheel truck at the rear to help guide the locomotive into curves when drifting back downhill after pushing a train over the hill.

Okay, now I'm not intimately acquainted with the terrain where the Virginian Railway operated, because while I've been through that area, it was back when I was a kid, and not paying attention.

Mountainous.  Not easy to traverse.

Yet on the other hand, the Virginian railway operated in an area where the Chesapeake & Ohio, Norfolk & Western, and Western Maryland also operated.....and outside of the vast plains and mountains of the west, this particular area boasted some of the largest locomotives ever made.  Giants.

So they knew how to make massive locomotives that could handle the geographic features, but this to me looks as if someone goofed, making a massive locomotive that couldn't possibly deal with the terrain.

Quote
The XA was sent back to Baldwin in 1920 and was rebuilt as two locomotives, a 2-8-8-0 and a 2-8-2. Unlike their progenitor which lasted only a few years in service, these two locomotives remained in service until 1953.

Hmmmm.

Recycling steam locomotives.  I didn't know they did that.  I knew that on occasion some were somewhat altered, but making two locomotives out of one, I never read of.

Of course, during the 1940s and 1950s when railways were getting rid of their steam locomotives, they were sold for scrap metal.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2011, 10:03:40 PM »
Frank, the Virginian, C&O, and N&W were all big coal-haulers in the Appalachians, and had some of the most powerful freight locomotives in the Eastern US for moving those long, heavy coal strings over the mountains.

You may have noticed the unusually long firebox on that Pennsy 2-10-2.  The Pennsy and the Reading were notable as the "Anthracite roads," that burned the harder, cleaner, but cooler-burning anthracite coal instead of the otherwise-near-universal bituminous.  The extra-large fireboxes for the hard coal are generally called 'Belpaire fireboxes' for man responsible for developing them, who worked for the Pennsy.  The Pennsylvania in fact advertised itself as 'The road that anthracite built,' and 'The standard railroad of America' because it tried to set the pace of technology and engineering practice, for instance throughout much of its history the standard for mainline rail on the PRR was 10% or greater more than the average in use on the other Class 1 railroads, i.e. the PRR was using 180# rail as its standard when the average elsewhere was 150#-160#.

I do remember seeing steam locomotives, just barely; PRR actually, in the late 50s.  I do remember on a trip to north of Chicago that my Dad and Uncle (Who lived in the area) took me down one night to await the passage of a streamliner, on its highballing departure from the north Chicago yards, which I realized later was the Hiawatha.  I also remember hearing the local switcher's crew at night in my own southern Indiana town, they were maybe a mile away, working the set-outs for the scheduled train to pick up the next day.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2011, 10:20:09 PM »
Whoa, Tanker.

Are you sure you're not a steam expert in fact.  Damn, you know stuff, sir.

Quote
The Belpaire firebox is a type of firebox used on steam locomotives.....It has a greater surface area at the top of the firebox, improving heat transfer and steam production. Its rectangular shape makes attaching the firebox to the boiler more difficult, but this is offset by simpler interior bracing of the firebox.

The Pennsylvania Railroad used Belpaire fireboxes on nearly all of its steam locomotives. The distinctive square shape practically became a PRR trademark, as no other American railroad except the Great Northern used Belpaire fireboxes in significant numbers.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2011, 09:56:18 AM »
In addition to a vast interest in things military, cultural, and historical, I have a love of things mechanical from elegant pulley and lever solutions in ancient machines to phased plasma rifles in the forty Watt range.  One picks up a tremendous amount of information in the course of a lifetime, I suppose.

 :cheersmate:
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2011, 10:04:28 AM »
How many of you have put a coin on the track for the train to run over?  :-)

A show of hands, please.  :wink:
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Offline BattleHymn

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2011, 10:30:05 AM »
How many of you have put a coin on the track for the train to run over?  :-)

A show of hands, please.  :wink:

I used to put coins on the old Frisco line near where I grew up.  The railroad bed is a bicycle trail now.  I ride it occasionally. 

I remember I was always disappointed because when I went to collect my freshly squashed coins, they were WAY to smashed and stretched out on the track to even think about peeling them off.  Maybe the train was going to slow, and kind of squeezed them out for too long.  I don't know.  I never did give that one much thought as to why it wasn't working.

Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2011, 10:37:42 AM »


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ5t9_ahBqY&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94Aw2S0Coc&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEhj9sXvP-8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]



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Offline TVDOC

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2011, 10:44:57 AM »
Frank, the Virginian, C&O, and N&W were all big coal-haulers in the Appalachians, and had some of the most powerful freight locomotives in the Eastern US for moving those long, heavy coal strings over the mountains.


Speaking of coal strings, several years ago, Mrs.D and I took a road trip up to the Black Hills area, on back roads (some gravel) from KC, up through the Nebraska Sand Hills, into SD.  As we traveled west (I don't remember the highway) we were travelling along a double road (two track sets, one for trains in each direction), which carried nothing but coal strings......one after another, spaced perhaps fifteen to twenty minutes apart, fully loaded going east, and equally spaced empties deadheading west.  We assumed they were coming from the coal fields in western Wyoming and Montana.  It was a massive display of RR hauling capability.

Don't know where they are divided and routed to their ultimate destinations, but some of them come through here, on the N&S road about a mile from our house.  We also see coal strings bound for local power plants coming from the Peabody fields in SW Missouri and SE Kansas.

doc
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Offline CG6468

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Re: horsepower
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2011, 10:54:22 AM »
Is your driveway covered with deep snow? Well, is it? Need some help?

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBSuNz3g0oA&feature=related[/youtube]

This one could probably help out, too.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVm3MMZ-UgY&feature=related[/youtube]
Illinois, south of the gun controllers in Chi town