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Author Topic: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too  (Read 1691 times)

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Offline dutch508

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How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« on: November 21, 2011, 11:08:52 AM »
This should be fun.

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oberliner (1000+ posts)        Mon Nov-21-11 05:10 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x373172

How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too

 Just the other day, a secular, liberal Jewish friend approached me for advice. He noted with some consternation that the leftist friends he cherishes are increasingly turning away from Israel. At the same time, he also loves his ultra-Orthodox relatives. How to navigate his personal relationships in light of his connection to Israel?

Liberal Jews are increasingly finding themselves in this situation, and not only because of the well-known tension that can befall friends and family who part company on politics. Liberal Jews may identify with their leftist friends because of their friends’ politics, while they love their ultra-Orthodox relatives in spite of their relatives’ religious orientation.

But what I most continue to be struck by is the apparent automatic marrying of values to policy. Instead of a person’s values coming to carefully inform one’s opinions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, what I’m seeing is the reflexive taking of sides. What could be a very fruitful discussion about values, ethics and policy instead comes to resemble a boxing ring, with everyone in their corners primed to fight.

Let’s take religion. As I tell my students, religion can be either a stubborn obstacle to peace, or a powerful force for contemplating change. The perception of religion as giving rise to inflexible stances is compounded when rocks and dirt are attributed sacred status. How do you divide land deemed holy?

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/the-fifth-question/how-lib...
 


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inademv (659 posts)      Mon Nov-21-11 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's not really possible
 to be a "secular person" while holding to the tenants of a religion. The corner stone of all of the Abrahamic religions is a set of dogma pulled directly from their so called holy books. And really if you aren't trusting in the infallibility of the god you worship then why do you claim any religion at all? Why not just consider yourself a secular humanist and avoid the (largely) negative brand that religions carry within the communities devoted to the discussion of moral and ethical living.

You can't worship God and Liberalism.

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 12:14:27 PM »
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oberliner (1000+ posts)        Mon Nov-21-11 05:10 AM
http://www.democraticunde...ll&address=124x373172

How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too

Easy as kosher water.  Just keep huffing that paint thinner.
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Offline jukin

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 12:28:06 PM »
The Jews tried being progressive in Germany during the 1930s. Didn't work out too well for them or the rest of the world.
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Offline Challengetheworld

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 01:38:42 PM »
Quote from: jukin on November 21, 2011, 12:28:06 PM
The Jews tried being progressive in Germany during the 1930s. Didn't work out too well for them or the rest of the world.

That wasn't their fault that a dictator with too much power made some horrible decisions and started the holocaust.  Why are people so paranoid with people thinking progressively and having an openly religious mind?
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Offline jukin

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »
Quote from: Challengetheworld on November 21, 2011, 01:38:42 PM
That wasn't their fault that a dictator with too much power made some horrible decisions and started the holocaust.  Why are people so paranoid with people thinking progressively and having an openly religious mind?

First, being progressive has about 90% in common with the National SOCIALISTS Party. From being vegetarians, to universal health care, to gun control, to centralized big government control, to a hard secular society. 

Secondly, in real measurable terms a progressive wants nothing progressive. A progressive wants regression. How did I determine this? By every policy offered and by the policies fostered on us failures to promises.

Thirdly, know your history. The Jews of Germany supported Hitler. Even when they were forced to wear their "Star" they would ask if Hitler knew of this. So yes, we can blame them for putting Hitler and the Nazis into power as much as any common German, probably more.
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When you are the beneficiary of someone’s kindness and generosity, it produces a sense of gratitude and community.

When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Offline wasp69

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 02:47:29 PM »
Quote from: Challengetheworld on November 21, 2011, 01:38:42 PM
Why are people so paranoid with people thinking progressively and having an openly religious mind?

Why not give an example of what you are talking about.
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Offline Freeper

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 05:13:34 PM »
Religion and liberalism do not mix, when the state is your god, how can one believe in an actual God?
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Offline jukin

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 05:54:12 PM »
Quote from: Freeper on November 21, 2011, 05:13:34 PM
Religion and liberalism do not mix, when the state is your god, how can one believe in an actual God?


BINGO! Government is a necessary evil in as little a portion as possible. How do you deal with people that think government is a necessary good?

Normal person: 1+1=2
Liberal moonbat; 1+1=potato

You can't argue with this person. You might have a chance if they said 1+1=3 but thinking 1+1= a root vegetable provides ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND.
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When you are the beneficiary of someone’s kindness and generosity, it produces a sense of gratitude and community.

When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Offline FreeBorn

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 06:05:13 PM »
Quote from: dutch508 on November 21, 2011, 11:08:52 AM
This should be fun.
 


You can't worship God and Liberalism.


Jewish folks don't have a monopoly on this, not at all. My dad has been a dyed-in-the-wool social democrat for all of his 78 years and a hard right catholic at the same time. How he can pull the lever in the voting booth in support of the abortuaries and go to church on Sunday is beyond me.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 06:08:15 PM »
Quote from:
inademv

Why not just consider yourself a secular humanist and avoid the (largely) negative brand that religions carry within the communities devoted to the discussion of moral and ethical living.

When one has graduated to a certain knowledge, this statement above automatically makes no sense at all.  I suppose secular humanists view themselves as having morals and ethics, but the foundation upon which they build their morals and ethics are forever shifting and changing with whatever the situation is that arises.  IOW, it's undependable.

.
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Offline Freeper

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Re: How Liberal Jews can stay progressive and love Israel, too
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »
Quote from: jukin on November 21, 2011, 05:54:12 PM
BINGO! Government is a necessary evil in as little a portion as possible. How do you deal with people that think government is a necessary good?

Normal person: 1+1=2
Liberal moonbat; 1+1=potato

You can't argue with this person. You might have a chance if they said 1+1=3 but thinking 1+1= a root vegetable provides ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND.

I am convinced the reason communist governments ban religion, is to keep the people from getting uppity and think that they have rights given to them by some higher power. If the government is the granter of rights, then that same government can take those rights away from you.

On the flip side governments that have set up official state churches, also manage to use religion to control people, by making the church preach that the king is ordained by God and you must follow his orders.

That is why the founders in their wisdom, gave us the first amendment that not only protects speech, but freedom of religion as well, so you can worship or not worship anyway that you choose. People who actually treasure the first amendment are the ones who will fight to the end to keep government from controlling people. People who have no real understanding of it, try to use it as a license for throwing temper tantrums in public.



 
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I may not lock my doors while sitting at a red light and a black man is near, but I sure as hell grab on tight to my wallet when any democrats are close by.
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