http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3226085Oh my.
The mountain man primitive.
Actually, the mountain man primitive is upset about high diesel prices, because the mountain man primitive enjoys tootling around West Virginia in his great big huge diesel-guzzling pick-up truck, pulling a Vanderbilt-sized yacht on a trailer behind. The mountain man primitive's obsessed with high diesel prices.
High diesel prices affect us all, and we should be concerned, but the mountain man primitive, in his parochial outlook, is obsessed with the issue only insofar as it affects his personal recreationalizing; never mind greater issues of Life and Death.
Anyway, that's the background.
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:12 AM
Original message
Just one question on the building of new refineries
"We can not build new oil refineries because of excessive regulation; it is the EPA who has caused our shortfall in refining capacity" That's the party line from Washington.
Then someone tell me how we have managed to build all these new refineries for converting corn to ethanol without the EPA gumming up the works. They can build hundreds of new corn refineries, but not one new one for oil?
I dunno.
I suspect ethanol refineries are somewhat, uh, less complex, and smaller in size, than petroleum refineries.
Don't anybody quote me on this; it's just a guess, and if I'm wrong, feel free to correct.
endarkenment (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps it has more to do with new refineries being a poor investment?
If in fact we have reached something near peak oil it makes very little sense from an investment viewpoint to put a huge amount of capital into additional refining capacity.
franksolich couldn't understand the second sentence by the darkened primitive even if on drugs.
WTF?
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. As a poor investment they pale before a corn fed unit
It takes more energy to produce ethanol than is liberated by burning it and so its very difficult to immagine a worse investment than in a facility that makes more of it. Of course the difference is that I'm talking about it being a bad investment for the nation as a whole while you're talking about it being a good investment for those few who sink money into it and profit.
endarkenment (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. ethanol has buzz that attracts venture capital.
Mostly because there are enough unknowns to draw flies to shit. The oil industry is one of the most analyzed industries on the planet. If there was money to be made building new refineries, they, would get built.
I agree that ethanol, especially ethanol from food stocks like corn, is stupid from many angles.
rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. Along with that - didn't the oil companies buy up independent refineries in the early '90s - refineries that were running fine under environmental rules - and shut them down? I seem to recall one large one in particular in southern California.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Have you researched where US domestic oil products go?
Or how much our government charges oil companies for the oil they pump out of public lands? Or the fact when Katrina shut down the refineries that not only did exports levels stay the same but the prices for that refined oil stayed the same while at the same time refined oil prices in the states went up? We are getting screwed big time.
underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Exactly it's not like the machines need a "mental day off"
I love that implication of this argument "THE REFINERIES ARE RUNNING AT 98% CAPACITY!!!" not only is regular maintenance already considered in that percentage what manager wouldn't KILL for things running 98% capacity? From an office manager to a fast food manager to the manager of a major industrial operation like this they would all DIE to find out how to get things to run at anywhere close to that level.
newportdadde (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think we all know if an oil company really wanted a refinery they would get it done.
It might take a few years to get their bought politicians in place, bribes done at the local level etc but eventually it would happen. They might get denied in one location here or there but if there was big money in it they would make it happen.
I can only conclude that they don't WANT to build one and why would they? Look at their profits, even with the price of crude increasing profits are through the roof. So at this time building a refinery does not help their pocket book, my gut tells me its because they know they won't need that much refining capacity because in the future they aren't going to have that much more crude available that will need refining.
Oh, so we're running out of oil?
What about those Saudi Arabia-sized oil deposits in the Gulf of Mexico, or up in North Dakota?
RGBolen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. New refineries are not needed. Has there been any shortage of processed gasoline?
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Actually, yes. And that is why we are importing finished gasoline from Europe
In europe they have excess refining capacity and we are buying finished gasoline from them. Didn't you know?
RGBolen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. So you feel it has to be refined in North America? Why?
The mountain man primitive gets a little, uh, irritated the topic's not being stuck to.
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Because the subjuct of this discussion is Our problem with refineries
You see, when I brought Our EPA into the discussion it excluded other countries from the discussion. The EPA has no authority over anyone but us. See what I mean? And when I refered to the building of refineries it was of necessity restriced to domestic capacity because, once again, we have no control over refineries being built anywhere else in the world. You see, its sort of about sticking to the subject.
RGBolen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. But if there is the refining capacity to provide adequately there isn't a need for new ones
doesn't matter where the current ones are located. If there were a need for them, they would be built.
You see, it's sort of like including us as part of the world.
jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Seems Strange To Me
Increases in the price of gas have lagged increases in the price of oil. If the problem was refined product, wouldn't the inverse be true?
Hmmm. One has bad news, really bad news, for the stingray primitive.
According to National Public Radio a few weeks ago, it's speculated that retail gasoline prices haven't risen as high as they usually would, the oil companies being sympathetic to consumer complaints, and raising prices only half as much as they usually do.
And the downside to that is, again according to National Public Radio, once "recovery" starts from this "recession" (which apparently isn't a recession, but everybody had thought it was), such "recovery" is going to be hampered by petroleum companies lowering prices only half as much as they usually would, to make up for what they're losing right now.
I know, I know, and don't mean to spark any hostility here, as nobody, primitive or decent civilized person likes high gasoline prices. And such prices affect those of us here on the Great Plains a great deal more than people living in other parts of the country where, if it's the middle of the night, one has to make a round trip of 80 miles to get a package of cigarettes.
franksolich is just stating a fact that we have to get used to.
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. It certainly seems logical to me
Does seem strange doesn't it. Prices are rising becaue of supply and demand, but there is no lack of supply and with rising prices you'd think there would be a decrease in demand too. However in the face of all this we see gasoline being imported from a place where it sells for more (even considering the absurd taxes on fuels in europe) to a place where it sells for less and from a place where demand is not being satisfied (their prices are rising as fast as ours) to a place where it is?
Very difficult to explain indeed.
seasat (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. US refineries are operating at the lowest utilization rate since 1992.
According to the DOE US refineries are at 85% of capacity. They are not the bottle neck in gas supply now.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. Remember when big oil bought up all those independent refineries after Reagan deregulated, they started closing all of them down using the EPA excuse, even after it was reported that some of those they were closing were up to EPA standards and the ones they chose to keep open were not. One thing about conservatives, they keep repeating the same lies and as a result you see the double talk, if your able to think on your own that is.
Here in Michigan all oil products are refined in Indiana, so all gas in the state comes from that one refinery, yet 90% of the people in the state can't seem to grasp the fact that Speed Way gas is the same as Exxon gas or Shell or all the rest, its like these folks are conditioned to believe that Exxon gas is a better grade then Speed Way gas and that the gas is different. Thats why boycotts have no effect on gas stations. Same thinking behind this ideal drilling in the USA will lower cost.
Most of the oil wells in the US are on public lands, the government only requires oil companies to pay around $19 a barrel for the oil taken off public lands, ( it could be higher then $19, that was the last price I found for oil taken from public lands )the problem is, outside of what the oil companies put into the strategic reserve, the rest is exported out of country at the current market price and is replaced by imported oil. So in other words we are being gouged not only by oil companies like Exxon but the government is also in on the gouging, then play the blame game which is blowing smoke up our asses and not one word how big oil, the auto industries and government are screwing the american citizens.
Uh, didn't deregulation start under the Incompetent One (1977-1981)?
I'll bet if the primitives checked, they'd find out yes, it did.
seasat (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. Interestingly, Reagan was responsible for most of the refineries closing.
There used to be a large amount of small refineries. They were kept operating by a subsidy that was rationalized that we need refinery capacity during war time. Reagan pushed for a a repeal of that subsidies and over a 100 small refineries shut down. There's a GAO report that outlines this.
Another GAO report noted that the extra requirements passed under the Clinton administration on only added about 5% additional to the cost of a refinery. That's hardly a prohibitive amount as the report points out. The second reason that many refineries closed is, during the big consolidation of the oil companies, they found it more efficient to close the older refineries and expand the existing refineries. Refinery capacity is not, as others have pointed out, the reason for high fuel prices.
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
13. this is utter bullshit. in other words, dismantle the EPA.
why would the oil industry want to build something that is going to cost them money & profits? this is where an 'honest' gov.t would step in.
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Better yet lets regulate big oil instead of leaving them to watch themselves.
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Far from it. The point is to stop letting the EPA be the scapegoat
Its the industry that is avoiding building capacity, not the EPA.
4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. WHY build new refineries??
Given that worldwide oil production is headed DOWNWARD, who is their right minds would want to build refineries?? Excect the Saudi's where the oil is and they are building a huge refinery that will put out much needed gasoline for the wasteful Americans..
I dunno. I'm tired of high gasoline prices just as much as everybody else.
But excresence happens; one accepts, adapts, and moves on.
I however remain mystified about some other commodity important to the primitives and sub-primitives, and we haven't heard a word of complaint from them about it.
I just learned the other day that a quantity of marijuana that cost $10 when I was a late-teenager, early-20s--and it wasn't that long ago--now costs $160. A whopping sixteen times over price increase.
But while the primitives and sub-primitives moan and whine about the high price of this and the high price of that, one looks in vain for a bonfire on Skins's island moaning and groaning about the excess windfall profits made by the marijuana industry.
