nadin brawls with MineralMan

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1992494

Oh my.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 03:48 PM
Original message
 
#OccupyWallStreet Is More Than a Hashtag - It's Revolution in Formation

A lot of what you've probably seen or read about the #occupywallstreet action is wrong, especially if you're getting it on the Internet. The action started as an idea posted online and word about it then spread and is still spreading, online. But what makes it really matter now is precisely that it is happening offline, in a physical, public space, live and in person. That's where the occupiers are assembling the rudiments of a movement.

At the center of occupied Liberty Plaza, a dozen or so huddle around computers in the media area, managing a makeshift Internet hotspot, a humming generator and the (theoretically) 24-hour livestream. They can edit and post videos of arrests in no time flat, then bombard Twitter until they're viral. But for those looking to understand even the basic facts about what is actually going on - before September 17 and since - the Internet has been as much a source of confusion as it is anything else.

For someone who has been following this movement in gestation as well as implementation, it's painfully easy to see which news articles take their bearing entirely from a few Google searches. Some reporters come to Liberty Plaza looking for Adbusters staff, or US Day of Rage members, or conspiratorial Obama supporters, or hackers from Anonymous. They're briefly disappointed to find none of the above. Instead, it's a bunch of people - from round-the-clock revolutionaries, to curious tourists, to retirees, to zealous students - spending most of their time in long meetings about supplying food, conducting marches, dividing up the plaza's limited space and what exactly they're there to do and why. And that's the point. More than demanding any particular policy proposal, the occupation is reminding Wall Street what real democracy looks like: a discussion among people, not a contest of money.

http://www.truth-out.org/occupywallstreet-more-hashtag-...

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. How many are there today?

Are they readily visible to anyone who is on Wall St.?

Admiral Loinpresser  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
5. I watched the streaming feed today and the group was noticeably bigger. A cop with a bull horn ordered them to disperse because the pedestrian traffic could not flow through. First time I've seen that (although it could have happened on day 1 because they had about two thousand).

Tomorrow will be very important. I hope they have 4-5 thousand.

pintobean  (1000+ posts)      Fri Sep-23-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
6. BBC says threy're down to about 50

They're occupying a privately owned park a few blocks away - with the park owner's permission.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
 
9. OK, thanks.

Too bad.

Admiral Loinpresser  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
 
13. The BBC did not check its facts. 

Estimating the number at 50 is bogus. The numbers fluctuate with the weather and with the daily workings of the agenda. But it is clearly in the hundreds from inspection of the live feed this morning. The article was unprofessionally snarky.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #13

18. And the people going and coming from the buildings on Wall Street number in the many thousands. Do you not see that a small group of people being kept away from the area is ineffective?

pintobean  (1000+ posts)      Fri Sep-23-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #13

24. The reporter is in New York and apparently, at the scene. Maybe this explains the difference of being there and watching the live stream:

"The parading demonstrators are flanked by a small army of police officers, tourists, members of the media, and people who are trying to get to work."

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
 
29. I saw that, too. I wonder sometimes if accidental nearby people are being counted in this. Last time I was in NYC and on Wall Street, the pedestrian traffic was pretty heavy. Of course, that was around lunch time, so that's to be expected, but how do you tell the protesters from everyone else and get an accurate count?

tritsofme (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. The revolution begins in 24 business hours.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
 
11. Alas historically that is how they start

Lordy.

By the way I expect the unrec, so go ahead.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
 
12. Is it? I'm not so sure, really.

So far, this whole thing has seemed remarkably ineffective. First, they started on a weekend, when nobody is on Wall Street but tourists. Then, when the work week began, the numbers shrank. It's not Egypt, certainly. It's not even that noticeable. Too bad, too.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
 
15. I should not do this

Try larger picture and trends. This is not WS. This is part of a trend. Start in the Midwest.

Trends and larger picture...

Of course maybe the Jackerie would be best...now talk of unfocused rage.

New nadism, in bold, above.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
 
17. Yes, yes. You see a trend that nobody else sees who matters.

Are you enraged? Are you out in the street?

I do see the large picture, thanks.

Name removed (0 posts)      Fri Sep-23-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
 
20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #20

23. No personal attack was made...only commentary.

Plus a couple of questions for you. I don't suck eggs, either. Raw eggs are a health hazard.

Wisconsin was a real mass protest. It was very effective. It was tightly focused and on a specific point. What is happening on Wall Street is unfocused and most of the signs I've seen had nothing to do with financial matters at all. A lot of mask-wearing and that sort of thing, but there was no central message coming from this group at all. Wisconsin was a very different thing. And, it worked. Wisconsin now has two new Democratic state senators than it did before. Something actually came from the Wisconsin demonstrations. I can't imagine anything coming from this Wall Street event.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
 
30. The fallacy in question is...

Argumentum Ad Hominen and it is a personal attack as well as a logical fallacy...have a good day

Oh and yes it is nice and sunny out there... That is the extent of acknowledgment you will get from me.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
 
19. You are correct. The people on Wall Street aren't even aware anything is happening. I'm afraid this has petered out without really ever having petered in.

Coexist  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
 
25. yes, they are.. by the police presence alone and they march down wall street every day.. hand out flyers

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
 
27. Ah, I see. OK, then.

Well, I guess that's good. Do the protesters outnumber the police now, like they did on the weekend?

New Yorkers are used to seeing the police. NYPD is forever setting up and taking down barricades in the city. People handing out flyers are also a commonplace in NYC.

pintobean  (1000+ posts)      Fri Sep-23-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
 
36. Party in the park with daily marches and hand billing. If they stop that, the supply of free food drys up. It'll be back to dumpster diving.

MineralMan  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
 
38. I like their spirit. However, I can't see that there's going to be any real impact from this. NYC's a tough place to protest. Too many people who are looking straight ahead to avoid running into the person in front of them, and all of them are headed somewhere and hoping not to be late. The financial district is a zoo a lot of the time with pedestrians. I doubt that most notice anything that's going on around them.

At least in DC, there are big public spaces near where things are happening. That makes it relatively easy to assemble a large group that can't be missed. Not so much in NYC.

blindpig (1000+ posts)      Fri Sep-23-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
 
28. Stranger things have happened...
 
..so I have been admonished.

When there ain't nothing happening anything is something.

Yeah.

The Tea Party happened.

That sure caught them off guard.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
 
31. One of my teachers

Was a student activist at one time, put it this way...

The least media attention, the more threat you are perceived as...

Why labor had to have it's own media starting in the 1820s. And why hand outs and sit ins were so critical in the '60s.

Fire Walk With Me (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
 
35. How much better to use your time and energy to do something, anything positive for those out there doing something, anything positive.

Someone once said something like "United we stand..."

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
 
37. Every social movement had it's detractors

Every one. So to see them here is not an aberration...in fact it is par for the franking course. If we didn't, it not be a serious one.

Thanks

Hmmm.  Freudian slip up there, in bold.

One wonders if nadin's been reading "the secret diaries of nadin" here, in the DUmping Ground forum.

[Duke Nukum]

They don't even know what they want.

What do we want?

"Blue!"

When do we want it?

"Pizza!"

[ScubaGuy]

I caught a glimpse of their 5 PM march on live stream.  It's raining and saying that there are 50 of them is being very generous.  Looks more like 30.

If you want a really good laugh you have to check out their official 'demands':

I say we vote yes to include all of these as demands

[Freeper]

This thing is as big a hit as the KKKarl Rove indictment. 

[ChuckJ]

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
 
15. I should not do this

Try larger picture and trends. This is not WS. This is part of a trend. Start in the Midwest.

Trends and larger picture...

Of course maybe the Jackerie would be best...now talk of unfocused rage.

I assume she means Jacquerie but knowing her she could be meaning Jackalope.

[FlaGator]

So nadin is touting the virtues of the protest that wasn't. They are "occupying a private park with the owner's permission." That isn't occupying, that is camping out.

She seems to be very frustrated that nobody, including the participants, is taking the "protest" seriously. If she supports this then why isn't she there?

[DumbAss Tanker]

She seems to be very frustrated that nobody, including the participants, is taking the "protest" seriously. If she supports this then why isn't she there?

Yeah...as far as I can tell, she doesn't actually have a real job, there's nothing but her own inertial keeping her away.

[franksolich]

I assume she means Jacquerie but knowing her she could be meaning Jackalope.

Yeah, again, nadin is applying the wrong historical parallels.

The Jacquerie's already happening, and it's still underway, its full force and vigor not yet unleashed, the peasants, the common man, against the privileged classes.

It's called "the Tea Party."

[GOBUCKS]

Of course maybe the Jackerie would be best...now talk of unfocused rage.

I had no idea what that meant, because nutcase spells like a chimpanzee, but when "jacquerie" was suggested,
I nadined it. It was defined as an especially bloody peasant revolt.

I'm still not sure why nutcase is using that term, since the silly little doodah in New York is
just a tiny handful of hippies eating free pizza.

[zeitgeist]

I caught a glimpse of their 5 PM march on live stream.  It's raining and saying that there are 50 of them is being very generous.  Looks more like 30.

If you want a really good laugh you have to check out their official 'demands':

I say we vote yes to include all of these as demands

Um this part just leaps out at me:

But who really owns what? Here arc the top controllers of the Federal Reserve Bank

1. Rothchild banks of London and Berlin.

2. Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris.

3. Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy.

4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam.

5. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York.

6. Kuhn, Loeb bank of New York.

7. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York, which controls all of the other 11 Federal Reserve Banks.

8. Goldman, Sachs Bank of New York.

I hear a dog whistle here Adolph, anyone else ?

[GOBUCKS]

Hell of a comeback by Lehman Brothers.

[JohnnyReb]

spending most of their time in long meetings about supplying food, conducting marches, dividing up the plaza's limited space and what exactly they're there to do and why. And that's the point. More than demanding any particular policy proposal, the occupation is reminding Wall Street what real democracy looks like: a discussion among people, not a contest of money.

There you have it folks...the bottom line of why liberalism is a failure...a lot of talk and nobody doing anything.

...and BTW, they definately ain't no money in that crowd.

[sybilll]

I watched the stream for a bit on day 1 or 2, I forget.  The guy and his buddies "reporting" covered a long rant about wanting to end capitialism, then when he moved on, he explained to those watching that they were headed to the "charging station" to recharge their iPhones and laptops.  They probably stopped a a job killing ATM machine to see if mom and dad had cut them off yet.  

[franksolich]

They probably stopped a a job killing ATM machine to see if mom and dad had cut them off yet.

Yeah, there's no doubt, just as there wasn't during the heyday of the hippies, that most of these protesters are actually trust-fund kiddies, their affluence based upon a system they wish to destroy.

[Big Don]

I caught a glimpse of their 5 PM march on live stream.  It's raining and saying that there are 50 of them is being very generous.  Looks more like 30.

If you want a really good laugh you have to check out their official 'demands':

I say we vote yes to include all of these as demands

Holy shit, that is  A LOT of STUPID

[Chris_]

I watched the stream for a bit on day 1 or 2, I forget.  The guy and his buddies "reporting" covered a long rant about wanting to end capitialism, then when he moved on, he explained to those watching that they were headed to the "charging station" to recharge their iPhones and laptops.  They probably stopped a a job killing ATM machine to see if mom and dad had cut them off yet.  

How do they expect to pay for rent and food if there is no capitalism?

[LC EFA]

How do they expect to pay for rent and food if there is no capitalism?

They don't expect to pay for food and rent. Such things should be portioned out by Big Brother on a "too each his need" basis.

[Ballygrl]

I bet they have a crush on each other LOL.

[Skul]

Admiral Loinpresser  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
5. I watched the streaming feed today and the group was noticeably bigger. A cop with a bull horn jumped out of the bushes and ordered them to disperse because the pedestrian traffic could not flow through. First time I've seen that (although it could have happened on day 1 because they had about two thousand).
Tomorrow will be very important. I hope they have 4-5 thousand.

Fixed just a wee bit.

[ScubaGuy]

Someone needs to post this one for the DUmmies to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/nyregion/protesters-are-gunning-for-wall-street-with-faulty-aim.html?_r=1

 

[Ballygrl]

Someone needs to post this one for the DUmmies to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/nyregion/protesters-are-gunning-for-wall-street-with-faulty-aim.html?_r=1

From the link you posted:

One day, a trader on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Adam Sarzen, a decade or so older than many of the protesters, came to Zuccotti Park seemingly just to shake his head. “Look at these kids, sitting here with their Apple computers,” he said. “Apple, one of the biggest monopolies in the world. It trades at $400 a share. Do they even know that?”

[JLO]

From the link you posted:

"From the link you posted:

Quote
One day, a trader on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Adam Sarzen, a decade or so older than many of the protesters, came to Zuccotti Park seemingly just to shake his head. “Look at these kids, sitting here with their Apple computers,” he said. “Apple, one of the biggest monopolies in the world. It trades at $400 a share. Do they even know that?”"



I doubt they know what a monopoly is, let alone a what a $400 share is, eh? 

Picture says it all.

[Evil_Conservative]

Admiral Loinpresser  (1000+ posts)        Fri Sep-23-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
 
13. The BBC did not check its facts. 

Estimating the number at 50 is bogus. The numbers fluctuate with the weather and with the daily workings of the agenda. But it is clearly in the hundreds from inspection of the live feed this morning. The article was unprofessionally snarky.

We only care about our cause when the weather is nice.

Nice.

If you really cared, you'd be out there 24/7, no matter the weather.