California Town Government in Full Assault on First Amendment

[FreeBorn]

San Juan Capistrano, CA – A city in Southern California is demanding that a small home Bible study group stop meeting unless they obtain a cost-prohibitive permit.

The homeowners, Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, were fined $300 for holding the Bible study.

Mr. Fromm appealed the ruling to the City of San Juan Capistrano, which was founded as a mission in the late 1700s and is home to California’s oldest building still in use, a chapel where Father Junipero Serra celebrated mass. Fromm was told by a hearing officer that regular gatherings of more than three people require a conditional use permit. Officials also stated that further religious gatherings in the home would be subject to a $500 fine per meeting. The City eventually rejected the appeal.

http://thereaganwing.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/california-town-government-in-full-assault-on-first-amendment/

More here~

http://www.thecapistranodispatch.com/view/full_story/15491252/article-Capistrano-Couple-in-Legal-Battle-for-Hosting-Bible-Study-in-Home?instance=commented

I don't recognize my country anymore. I am speechless.

[ExGeeEye]

I don't recognize my country anymore.

You're a bit late to the party.  This is how they do it.

You have the absolute constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear arms-- but first you have to get a permit.  One permit per jurisdiction, because permits aren't recognized uniformly.

Tobacco is a perfectly legal substance-- but God help you if you actually try to light up anywhere-- including, in some places, inside your own home.

Free speech zones-- the Constitution declares the entire country a "free speech zone".

(Permits to assemble I can see-- as long as their sole purpose is to prevent scheduling conflicts.  On the other hand, spontaneous peaceful assemblies must pass unmolested IMHO.)

I'm only surprised it took this long for religious gatherings without government sanction.

[diesel driver]

Bureaucrats have as much a problem understanding "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise thereof", as they do "The right of the people to keep and bear ares, shall not be infringed".

 

[JohnnyReb]

They should do like the muslims in France do...hold it in the middle of the street.

[Doubleplusungood]

This is what happens when you allow the nose of the camel into the tent. You can never compromise with leftwingers, EVER. You just can't.

[JohnnyReb]

This is what happens when you allow the nose of the camel into the tent. You can never compromise with leftwingers, EVER. You just can't.

Yep. An inch now, an inch later and soon they have the mile they wanted.

[NHSparky]

And this behind the Orange Curtain, no less.

Now this being said, would I like 20-plus (as many as 50, according to the story) coming into your neighbor's house every Sunday morning?  I think of the size of the lot I lived on in my house in CA and I'd be concerned if more than 5 people tried to park on our street.

Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.

[MrsSmith]

And this behind the Orange Curtain, no less.

Now this being said, would I like 20-plus (as many as 50, according to the story) coming into your neighbor's house every Sunday morning?  I think of the size of the lot I lived on in my house in CA and I'd be concerned if more than 5 people tried to park on our street.

Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.

But in the neighborhood of large homes on even larger lots—the Fromms live in a 4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn—Stephanie Fromm said parking was never a problem. Neither was noise, she said.

“There’s no singing or music,” she said

Read more: The Capistrano Dispatch - Capistrano Couple in Legal Battle for Hosting Bible Study in Home

It doesn't seem to be an issue with room...it sounds more like 1 person in the neighborhood has some issue with it and wants to limit the Fromm's use of their private property.

[CG6468]

It doesn't seem to be an issue with room...it sounds more like 1 person in the neighborhood has some issue with it and wants to limit the Fromm's use of their private property.

I don't think we know all there is to know about this, but the neighbors are probably leftist wackos, considering the location of San Juan Capistrano.

[NHSparky]

I don't think we know all there is to know about this, but the neighbors are probably leftist wackos, considering the location of San Juan Capistrano.

Actually, SJC is pretty upscale for OC, which is pretty conservative by virtually any standard.  More likely than not it's one neighbor who didn't want to confront the Fromm's and instead went straight to the city.  I don't agree with that method, and code enforcement is pretty heavy-handed, but even living on large properties doesn't give one carte blanche to piss off your neighbors.  Besides, we're not talking friggin ranches here, we're talking horse properties of maybe a couple of acres tops.

ETA: Looked at Google Maps.  They're smaller than that.  Maybe 1/2 acre lots, tops.

[Ballygrl]

Tweeted this to Michelle Malkin and Tammy Bruce, let's see what comes of it, oh I'll e-mail it to Rush.

[CG6468]

Thanks Sparks. I thought it might be less liberal than the coastal areas (where would it NOT be less liberal than that?). But as we know, it takes only one complaint nowadays to get new laws passed so the majority of the people won't get "offended," whether the "offense" is real or not.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.

Yeah, I have the same impression.  Perhaps something like 20 extra cars and big-ass trucks showing up in a six-house cul-de-sac every week and the neighbors getting fed up with it.

[cavegal]

These people are way out of control.

[MrsSmith]

Actually, SJC is pretty upscale for OC, which is pretty conservative by virtually any standard.  More likely than not it's one neighbor who didn't want to confront the Fromm's and instead went straight to the city.  I don't agree with that method, and code enforcement is pretty heavy-handed, but even living on large properties doesn't give one carte blanche to piss off your neighbors.  Besides, we're not talking friggin ranches here, we're talking horse properties of maybe a couple of acres tops.

ETA: Looked at Google Maps.  They're smaller than that.  Maybe 1/2 acre lots, tops.

4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre??  Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot. 

[NHSparky]

4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre??  Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot.  

Do a Google Maps on the lots.  They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense.  Not by a longshot.  DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side.  Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.

Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.

[JohnnyReb]

Do a Google Maps on the lots.  They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense.  Not by a longshot.  DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side.  Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.

Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.

If they're keeping a horse on less than 3 or 4 acres of good pasture, then there ain't blade of grass on it anywhere.

[NHSparky]

If they're keeping a horse on less than 3 or 4 acres of good pasture, then there ain't blade of grass on it anywhere.

No, what they typically do is own a horse and board it nearby.  Now I recognize the area.  Within spitting distance of the San Diego Fwy off J-Serra Road.

Most of the houses there are overbuilt McMansions: 4-5 bedrooms, 6 bathrooms, 5000 sq. ft. on 1/3-1/2 acre lots, and go for around $1.5 million, give or take.

[FreeBorn]

I was just wondering what those folks pay for a bale of hay in the lush Eden of southern Kalifornica.

Yikes! Just looked it up. Almost three times what it goes for here in Western New York. That is insane. Must be that it is being trucked in from some other region that can actually grow hay.

http://www.saturdayhaysale.com/

[JohnnyReb]

I was just wondering what those folks pay for a bale of hay in the lush Eden of southern Kalifornica.

Yikes! Just looked it up. Almost three times what it goes for here in Western New York. That is insane. Must be that it is being trucked in from some other region that can actually grow hay.

http://www.saturdayhaysale.com/

I love stupid horse people. I'm not talking about those that know horses and how to keep and use a horse. I'm talking about the ones that "love" horses. They get 2 acres and start a horse ranch. They don't half feed them, they never have their feet tended to, they let them get long, matted, shaggy hair, they get skinny with the bones showing through. When you ride by the horse is usually standing there with his head down and dull, blank look on his face, If you say anything to the owner about the condition of the horse, they go all ballistic on you about "How they love their horse/horses." ...and I've gotten old enough now that I don't give a damn what people think of me anymore...so...I usually unload on them.... ...and then I feel both good and bad. Good that I told them off but still feel bad for the horse.

Lady next door to home place had 3 horses she kept in the woods for years. I'm not a great animal lover but the conditions of those horses just about made me cry every time I saw them. I finally couldn't stand it any more and reported it. Hey, I was raised up right beside her, knew her mom, dad, still friends with her brother, it was the only way I could figure to handle the situation with causing everyone problems.

Years ago, the KKK would have handled it....and gotten better results than any gov/private orgs do.

[MrsSmith]

Do a Google Maps on the lots.  They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense.  Not by a longshot.  DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side.  Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.

Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.

30162 Branding Iron Road

Google it

That is not a 1/2 acre lot.  Do street view...they can probably park 12 cars in that driveway if they move the boat.  They can park cars all down the street past their house without being in front of any other driveway, and without blocking the road.  If they were having Tupperware parties or selling home decoration items, the law wouldn't have touched it.

[NHSparky]

Newsflash...I can park 12 cars in my driveway, and I don't have to move a boat.  So what happens when 50 people show up?

They don't have enough room to properly care for a horse, and you know it.  It's not even a 2 acre lot.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/30162-Branding-Iron-Road,-san-juan-capistrano,-ca_rb/

$1.6 million for what basically is a McMansion.

[Bodadh]

If someone has their panties in a twist because of all the cars then they can all park at a near by grocery store and car pool to the home. No need to create a s***storm if both sides act like grown ups.

[NHSparky]

Very true--but as I'm looking at it, one side isn't, and they're running to the media and pretending to be all butt-hurt and claiming their 1A rights are being trampled upon when they aren't exactly being the paragon of virtue they claim.

I look at it this way--if they've got enough money to pay the mortgage on a $1.5M house, they've got enough to plop down on hall rental once a month for a couple hundred bucks.

[seahorse513]

imo. 10 people including Fromms is a bible study, anything more is a congregation!! Separate building with ample parking would be better suited, regardless of religion...