The state of public education in America - open discussion

[DixieBelle]

This thread is for discussion on the American public education system. Inspired by this thread http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=6178.30;topicseen

Have at it!! 

Some food for thought -

Are taxpayers footing the bill for Islamic school in Minnestoa? http://www.startribune.com/16404541.html

Everyday Math http://michellemalkin.com/2007/11/28/fuzzy-math-a-nationwide-epidemic/

Dept. of Education fails to proofread exam http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/education/20test.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

[djones520]

I don't have a solid opinion on this matter.  None of this controversial stuff happened in my highschool, which is my only real experience with public schools (since I attended DODD's schools he rest of my childhood).

I know that the more and more I hear about things, the worse and worse it sounds, but at the same time if you held that to Iraq, you'd think that you'd get shot the moment you stepped outside there.

[rich_t]

I think the current American public education is largely pathetic and I lay a large portion of the blame for that on the Federal Government intruding on issues that it has no Constitutional authority to involve itself in.

I also have to put a certain level of the blame on parents that seem to no longer be interested in being involved with what goes on in the schools their kids go to.

Now having said that...

I will stipulate that there are some good public schools, good teachers and good involved parents out there.  I just think that they are now in the minority.

[rich_t]

I don't have a solid opinion on this matter.  None of this controversial stuff happened in my highschool, which is my only real experience with public schools (since I attended DODD's schools he rest of my childhood).

I know that the more and more I hear about things, the worse and worse it sounds, but at the same time if you held that to Iraq, you'd think that you'd get shot the moment you stepped outside there.

Hopefully things will improve by the time you have kids of your own in public schools.   The so called horror stories that you might hear about the failures of our public schools system have a lot of truth to them IMO.

[Lord Undies]

The morning devotional....the prayer....over the PA....what a wonderful and inspirational way to start the day!  Then the most wonderful teacher I ever had, Mrs. Goldsmith, my young third grade homeroom teacher who was Miss Texas just a few years before, read the class a Bible story.  The entire class sat quietly as this terrific woman read us a story.

Back then, at school, we kids didn't feel like lost boats floating alone on a sea of liberal muck.  We felt like we were among our community family who cared about us.  It was a wonderful way to raise and educate children.

That was the year President Kennedy was murdered.  Thank God that day we kids were among loving adults who really cared about us.

I can't imagine what it would be like now.  Teachers cheering????

[formerlurker]

Teachers' unions have destroyed education in this country -- the US DOE had very little to do with it.   

If there is controversial materials/curricula being used in your District then lobby parents to unite and give your school boards hell.  They set policy -- make them change it.

[DixieBelle]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

[rich_t]

the US DOE had very little to do with it.

Sure it did.

[rich_t]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

I agree 100%.  I never liked that program from the get go.

[Lord Undies]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

[rich_t]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

[Lord Undies]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

[rich_t]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

You made a blanket statememt.

I am asking for more specific details concerning the good done.

[formerlurker]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

You made a blanket statememt.

I am asking for more specific details concerning the good done.

I'll play.   Highly qualified teachers.   Parent involvement. Subgroups having to meet AYP -- forcing school Districts to actually teach them.   My state is doing very well.    NCLB may not be perfect, but it sent a shot across the bow of public education that accountability for failure is a very real consequence.

[rich_t]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

You made a blanket statememt.

I am asking for more specific details concerning the good done.

I'll play.   Highly qualified teachers.   Parent involvement. Subgroups having to meet AYP -- forcing school Districts to actually teach them.   My state is doing very well.    NCLB may not be perfect, but it sent a shot across the bow of public education that accountability for failure is a very real consequence.

More blanket statements IMO.  Where is the evidence of Highly qualified teachers.   Parent involvement. Subgroups having to meet AYP -- forcing school Districts to actually teach them?

I am concerned about the national level.  I want to see actual uncontestable proof that NCLB is actually working.

For example an increase in overall SAT or equivilant test scores come to mind as the sort of proof I have in mind.

[Uhhuh35]

The US spends the most per student in the world yet ours is the worst among industrialized nations so more money is not the answer. Why can't we just throw out our current system and just install South Korea or Norway's system?

With English of course.

[formerlurker]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

You made a blanket statememt.

I am asking for more specific details concerning the good done.

I'll play.   Highly qualified teachers.   Parent involvement. Subgroups having to meet AYP -- forcing school Districts to actually teach them.   My state is doing very well.    NCLB may not be perfect, but it sent a shot across the bow of public education that accountability for failure is a very real consequence.

More blanket statements IMO.  Where is the evidence of Highly qualified teachers.   Parent involvement. Subgroups having to meet AYP -- forcing school Districts to actually teach them?

I am concerned about the national level.  I want to see actual uncontestable proof that NCLB is actually working.

For example an increase in overall SAT or equivilant test scores come to mind as the sort of proof I have in mind.

You are kidding right?  

Highly qualified is a requirement of NCLB -- meaning teachers must hold master's degrees, be proficient in the subject/grade they teach.   They must also pass a certification test in my state which is an extremely difficult test.  

Paraprofessionals must also be highly qualified in holding an associates degree and receive extensive training for the field in which work.

Parents have the right to receive upon request their child's teachers and paraprofessionals qualifications.    Parents have the right to observe their child's classroom and speak to/have access to any professional/paraprofessional that works with their child.  

The aggregate and sub-aggregate must meet AYP.  If they do not meet AYP two years in a row then school choice kicks in where a child can move to a school that is meeting AYP and the sending school must provide transportation and out of distict placement costs if necessary.

You will find the results of NCLB Act in each individual state.  All is required is that you do the actual research (which is apparent you haven't done at all on NCLB as you made the reference of generalizations to the clear mandates of the Act).

Not a huge proponent of SATs but that is another thread altogether.

[formerlurker]

The US spends the most per student

You can thank teacher unions for that. 

[Splashdown]

For better or worse, we as Americans made a commitment in the basic form of a mission statement: All children can learn. This is drummed into the head of every educational psychology student in every university. Teachers are trained, even, to bring that specific sentence up in every job interview.

Here's the problem/dilemma. We teach 'em all. Those who are the brightest along with those with the most profound learning issues. Other countries don't do that. There are other tracks for students with a less than academic aptitude.

We ask schools to do too much: teach, parent, instill some sort of values, give nutrition, give shots, give medical treatment, give vaccinations, prepare students for the workplace, etc. All in 6 hours a day, 180 days a year.

Public schools and teachers are not equipped to do all of this.  The public schools are doomed to fail.

[formerlurker]

For better or worse, we as Americans made a commitment in the basic form of a mission statement: All children can learn. This is drummed into the head of every educational psychology student in every university. Teachers are trained, even, to bring that specific sentence up in every job interview.

Here's the problem/dilemma. We teach 'em all. Those who are the brightest along with those with the most profound learning issues. Other countries don't do that. There are other tracks for students with a less than academic aptitude.

We ask schools to do too much: teach, parent, instill some sort of values, give nutrition, give shots, give medical treatment, give vaccinations, prepare students for the workplace, etc. All in 6 hours a day, 180 days a year.

Public schools and teachers are not equipped to do all of this.  The public schools are doomed to fail.

Ah yes, I long for the glory days of Stalin where children were tested for their academic and physical capabilities then provided the "track" for what they will be when they grow up.

FAPE -- free appropriate public education for all students.   Those with significant learning disabilities most certainly can and do learn and become contributing members of their communities. 

We have vocational high schools in my state where students learn trades while simultaneously meeting  academic high school graduation requirements.

There are some public schools that excel (many in my own state, to include my own school district).   The others ar being pushed to perform by NCLB Act and are getting better, or at least on track to improve.   I am not going to stick a fork in public education just yet.

Teacher's unions are destroying education by offering teachers a ridiculous level of protection from accountability.   That could not only be a thread, it could be a book.

[DixieBelle]

FAPE is fine. My problem is with the squishy feel good liberal way of doing things. I've seen many students in my son's school who really need one on one attention mainstreamed. And I've seen really brilliant students mainstreamed. Lowest common denominator and all that....

Pretty ironic that you invoke the name of Stalin. NCLB smacks of top down, federal dictation of educational policy with no room for exceptions, not to mention the funding issues NCLB had in it's early days. In fact, I think our school system is still having those issues. And Science has almost been completely thrown out the window. Yes, that's right. My son has done scant Science this year because the teacher is forced to cover Math and Language Arts - they are teaching the test.

Our local school failed to meet AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) because they had a 92% Hispanic participation rate instead of the required 95%. Score, results and overall improvement didn't matter. That one metric caused them to fail. How stupid is that?

Personally, I'm tired of seeing our school's principal and staff waste time wading through the red tape and draconian measures in NCLB. It's no wonder we've had four principals in four years. This is decent school too. Aside from the liberal bent in the lesson plans, they are all top notch educators and the overall student body and PTA are engaged and caring. But every year, the staffs spends an inordinate amount of time having meetings to convey NCLB to us parents and they continually have problems that are the equivalent of missing the forest for the trees.

And to assume that teachers weren't capable or interested in helping students learn and succeed before NCLB is wrong. This says it better than I can (from our school sup.)

No Child Left Behind is built on a mirage. At some point that's always just over the horizon, the law assumes, all children in the nation will miraculously read and compute at grade level, simply because they have been tested and tested and tested again. The theory is that somehow, when told the exact number of children who are lagging in achievement, teachers will agree to render the magic that they have thus far withheld and -- poof! -- those kids will become smart, cooperative and productive.

As we get closer to that utopia, it's becoming ever more clear that Some Children Remain Behind and that, gadzooks, Not Every Child Is the Same.

One of the aims of NCLB was to close the gap between white students and "typically underserved minorities", low income students, and those with disabilities. Okay, that's fine on it's face but becomes a nightmare when put in the hands of the Federal govt.

[formerlurker]

FAPE is fine. My problem is with the squishy feel good liberal way of doing things. I've seen many students in my son's school who really need one on one attention mainstreamed. And I've seen really brilliant students mainstreamed. Lowest common denominator and all that....

Pretty ironic that you invoke the name of Stalin. NCLB smacks of top down, federal dictation of educational policy with no room for exceptions, not to mention the funding issues NCLB had in it's early days. In fact, I think our school system is still having those issues. And Science has almost been completely thrown out the window. Yes, that's right. My son has done scant Science this year because the teacher is forced to cover Math and Language Arts - they are teaching the test.

Our local school failed to meet AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) because they had a 92% Hispanic participation rate instead of the required 95%. Score, results and overall improvement didn't matter. That one metric caused them to fail. How stupid is that?

Personally, I'm tired of seeing our school's principal and staff waste time wading through the red tape and draconian measures in NCLB. It's no wonder we've had four principals in four years. This is decent school too. Aside from the liberal bent in the lesson plans, they are all top notch educators and the overall student body and PTA are engaged and caring. But every year, the staffs spends an inordinate amount of time having meetings to convey NCLB to us parents and they continually have problems that are the equivalent of missing the forest for the trees.

And to assume that teachers weren't capable or interested in helping students learn and succeed before NCLB is wrong. This says it better than I can (from our school sup.)

No Child Left Behind is built on a mirage. At some point that's always just over the horizon, the law assumes, all children in the nation will miraculously read and compute at grade level, simply because they have been tested and tested and tested again. The theory is that somehow, when told the exact number of children who are lagging in achievement, teachers will agree to render the magic that they have thus far withheld and -- poof! -- those kids will become smart, cooperative and productive.

As we get closer to that utopia, it's becoming ever more clear that Some Children Remain Behind and that, gadzooks, Not Every Child Is the Same.

One of the aims of NCLB was to close the gap between white students and "typically underserved minorities", low income students, and those with disabilities. Okay, that's fine on it's face but becomes a nightmare when put in the hands of the Federal govt.

NCLB Act only dictates to those who receive Title I funding.  You don't like the dictates? (you being school districts)  then put your hand back in your pocket.   I have no problem with the government attaching accountability onto money they shell out.

Also note to your Distict's superintendent -- the testing is done to secure data.  It is what Administration does with that data that prompts the areas needed to be targeted for improvement.   Clearly that hasn't sunken in yet there, but it has in many other Districts across the country, my District being one of them. 

[Lauri]

Teachers' unions have destroyed education in this country -- the US DOE had very little to do with it.   

If there is controversial materials/curricula being used in your District then lobby parents to unite and give your school boards hell.  They set policy -- make them change it.

well, it sounds easy enough to "set policy and make them change it" but the unions are way ahead of us.

our last school district could not get rid of entrenched board members because the teachers union would come out en masse to vote to keep those board members in place.

do you think liberal strongholds stay in liberal hands by chance? in a very blue area such as seattle, the Dems/lefties and unions outvote the parents by a large margin.

i gave up and am not looking back. i have more war stories here than i have time to write, but suffice it to say, its too broken to fix in seattle. i encourage people to homeschool or go private if they can afford it. there is no other option here.

[Lauri]

No Child Left Behind needs to be completely thrown out. Or at least heavily revised.

It has served its purpose.  It woke up the establishment.  Sure you hear bitching about how all that is happening now is "preparing for the tests".  Before NCLB, they were doing nothing but babysitting and waiting for the next social promotion.

This time, since we are going to have the federal government diddling with our local schools, something positive came out of it.  Not much, but it was a start. 

What actual positives have resulted thus far due to that program?  I admit that I may have missed any.

I covered that in the first paragraph. 

You made a blanket statememt.

I am asking for more specific details concerning the good done.

a very plugged in parent in my neck of the woods considered NCLB a sort of "Trojan Horse" to put a harsh spotlight on how bad our schools had become under Dem rule the past 40 years.

I'd say it worked, but I dont know that Bush 'strategized' it that way. Bush was somewhat hoping that his signing of Teddy Kennedy's legislation was a reach across the aisle to the Dems. Well, as we all know.. that certainly didnt happen.

But it had the unintended consequence of showing how teachers just teach to the tests and that the kids arent learning as much as we thought they could.

Its been a great program for enlightening ALL politicians as to how bad the problem really is.. but I dont expect Bush or any other president to really make a difference in how it changes. That is up to parents to leave public education and homeschool or go the private route and let the system collapse in on itself.

[Splashdown]

For better or worse, we as Americans made a commitment in the basic form of a mission statement: All children can learn. This is drummed into the head of every educational psychology student in every university. Teachers are trained, even, to bring that specific sentence up in every job interview.

Here's the problem/dilemma. We teach 'em all. Those who are the brightest along with those with the most profound learning issues. Other countries don't do that. There are other tracks for students with a less than academic aptitude.

We ask schools to do too much: teach, parent, instill some sort of values, give nutrition, give shots, give medical treatment, give vaccinations, prepare students for the workplace, etc. All in 6 hours a day, 180 days a year.

Public schools and teachers are not equipped to do all of this.  The public schools are doomed to fail.

Ah yes, I long for the glory days of Stalin where children were tested for their academic and physical capabilities then provided the "track" for what they will be when they grow up.
FAPE -- free appropriate public education for all students.   Those with significant learning disabilities most certainly can and do learn and become contributing members of their communities. 

We have vocational high schools in my state where students learn trades while simultaneously meeting  academic high school graduation requirements.

There are some public schools that excel (many in my own state, to include my own school district).   The others ar being pushed to perform by NCLB Act and are getting better, or at least on track to improve.   I am not going to stick a fork in public education just yet.

Teacher's unions are destroying education by offering teachers a ridiculous level of protection from accountability.   That could not only be a thread, it could be a book.

I didn't make my point well. It is a GOOD thing we do this. However, it is also the reason why our test scores lag behind some other countries who do not teach them all.