Are there still any DUers who doubt climate change, or that it's man-made?

[Freeper]

arbusto_baboso (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 12:50 PM
Original message
Are there still any DUers who doubt climate change, or that it's man-made?
   
If so, what are your justifications for believing that way?

I ask because I'm debating a moron on another BB about this, and he insist that he's not just parroting right-wing corporate talking points. So, I'd like to see if there's any other approach of his I could be missing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1332388

In other words, help I'm losing to a freeper.

IndyPragmatist (217 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. By no means do I doubt it,
   
However, I often disagree with the numbers in some studies. You hear right wing talking points that say the only reason scientists claim there is global warming is because they want to scare people into providing them funding. While this is silly, there is a TINY bit of truth to it. I deal with grant funding all the time at work, and often, the ability to get future funding is based on the results of previously funded projects. I believe that some scientists are using the worst case scenario in many of their studies and presenting it as the most likely scenario to help their cause. I see many people in my line of work focusing on the worst case scenario, and ignoring the best case scenario because they need to convince people that it is a cause for concern.

I believe we are part of the cause, but there are far too many factors involved to say that we are completely the cause of climate change. I was a meteorology major for 2 years before changing majors, and there was a lot of debate over how much impact humans have on the increasing temperatures. Some said it was almost completely due to our CO2 emissions, others said we played a part, but there was no definitive link between the two. I have seen many studies that show only around 60% of meteorologists agree that global climate change is due to human activity. We obviously have climate cycles, and many ignore this fact when discussing climate change, and we have no way of predicting these cycles. There is reason to believe that we may be in a cycle, but also that we are adding to the increased temperatures.

I do not see a lot of research that factors in the replenishing of the ozone layer since the Montreal Protocol. I believe that this has to have some impact on our climate. It has been a while since I studied this, but I believe the thinning of the ozone over Antarctica caused surface level temps to rise, while cooling upper level temperatures. Since we have made great progress in replenishing the ozone layer over the last 20 years, wouldn't it make sense that this would cause surface level temps to cool, while raising upper level temps? I just don't see this in a lot of research. (Although, I must admit that I rarely read more than the intro and conclusion if the paper is more than 5 pages).

I don't think there is any way to doubt that we are playing a factor in climate change. However, there is a great deal of reason to question just how much of an impact we play in this. Lets be honest, we still don't know quite a bit about our planet and how it works, there could be many reasons for climate change that we havent discovered yet. And from a scientific perspective, it is irresponsible to act as if we know all there is to know about weather and climate.

arbusto_baboso (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. While you do make some valid points, let me just ask one question.
   
What would be the harm in dealing with climate change as if it IS primarily man-made, and that the worst case scenarios are probably true? Do you see any harm in doing that?

Well you have a point, what possible harm could making energy prices necessarily skyrocket bring on us?
What harm could taxing the hell out of people for breathing out cause?
It's not like it would destroy the economy or anything like that.
 

IndyPragmatist (217 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not at all,
   
Even if we found out that humans had nothing to do with climate change, it is forcing people to think about their actions and how they impact the environment and others, which is definitely a good thing.

One thing that cannot be debated, we are hurting the environment. Climate change may not be completely proven, but our influence on air pollution is. Before global warming came around, people seemed to ignore how their SUVs hurt air quality. I guess it was difficult to convince people that air pollution was something to be concerned about. Global warming and climate change have convinced people that their actions do have some effect on the environment.

Look if you want to live green go for it. Leave those of us who want to maintain our lifestyles alone and quit trying to get the govt to force us to sit in the dark and ride bicycles everywhere.
As our society has evolved tons of measures for being more environmentally friendly have been taken, yet it's never enough for you goons. Just like taxes on other people are never high enough, you want the rich to be taxed until they bleed then fine them for getting blood all over the ground.

IndyPragmatist (217 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Yep, some act as if being eco-friendly would be soooo difficult
   
How difficult is it to drop your cans and bottles into a separate container? Or to turn off your car if you are sitting in a drive-through or at a train crossing? Even tiny changes, if done by enough people, have a huge impact. However, some think its their right to throw everything into a landfill.

Honestly, I don't think the biggest concern is the US. As China and India become more industrialized, they will start polluting like crazy and will make us look like tree-huggers. The only way is to develop cleaner energy sources that are efficient. We may have the money here to force less than efficient methods onto people for the sake of the environment, but they wont do that in China or India. They will only adopt green policies if they are cost efficient.

None of that stuff is unreasonable for anyone to do on their own free will. However even those simple steps will never be enough to satisfy you goons. The simple fact that Bush's Crawford ranch was more green than Al Gore's house says a lot about the people who follow the glowbull warming religion.

SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. what he said
   
i will go with that
it doesnt help the debate when as soon as any skepticism is voiced you are labeled "denier" i dont deny climate change
it happens 4 times a year
i do wonder if the scant evidence collected SO FAR can be useful
the fact that i am not 100% bought in on it does not make me a "denier"
any more than your passionate belief in something makes it true
   

Lousy freeper troll.

Edweird (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Present. The climate is clearly changing - if it weren't THAT would be cause for alarm.
   
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 01:27 PM by Edweird
However I don't believe it's man made. In fact, I find it laughably arrogant that humans believe they have that much power over the planet.
All of the arguments for man made global warming rely on cherry picked informatino and a very narrow view of climate history. I'm replying from my phone on my lunch break and I'll be back later on my laptop to deal with the inevitable flames. I'll be happy to provide the science behind my position at that time.

The mods are gonna be busy tonight.

The reality is, the earf has never been at a constant temperature, nor a constant state in it's entire existence.
Cow farts and SUVs are not going to doom us to some global scale demise.

[JohnnyReb]

Think I'll fire up the truck, turn the air conditioner wide open and smoke another pack of cigarettes. That ought to fix things.

[Celtic Rose]

The fact of the matter is, if Global Climate Change (TM) is caused by humans, then all those little actions wouldn't be worth a drop in the bucket.  The amount of emissions that would need to be cut back at this point is astronomical, and would absolutely stop most industrialized nations flat.  I think we need more than a few hypotheses about a couple degree change in temperature to justify that...

[DumbAss Tanker]

I believe they successfully unleashed serious bannage after a poll related to this topic a couple of years ago, none of the survivors who still harbor any heretical thoughts would likely be so careless as to own up to it now.

[jukin]

I believe they successfully unleashed serious bannage after a poll related to this topic a couple of years ago, none of the survivors who still harbor any heretical thoughts would likely be so careless as to own up to it now.

BINGO!

I smell mole trap.

[USA4ME]

arbusto_baboso

While you do make some valid points, let me just ask one question.
   
What would be the harm in dealing with climate change as if it IS primarily man-made, and that the worst case scenarios are probably true? Do you see any harm in doing that?

What a poor argument.  There's too many ways to slap this one down.

What would be the harm in dealing with alcoholic beverages as if it will ALWAYS lead to alcoholism, and that the worst case scenarios are probably true? Do you see any harm in doing that?

Look primitive, people aren't going to live their life around "Well maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but since we don't know..."  There may be times people individually choose to take that path for any number of reasons.  But as a whole of society?  Nada.

.

[franksolich]

Think I'll fire up the truck, turn the air conditioner wide open and smoke another pack of cigarettes. That ought to fix things.

The primitives as usual are just being stupid, and they do know it.

It's a perverse psychological quirk of theirs; they know it, but like it, being stupid.

Last night, the whole of Nebraska was slammed by storms.  If those same storms had happened in blue states and blue cities, they would've been obscured by the man-made structures, the clutter, the congestion of those places, no one seeing what they really were.

In ten minutes, a typical--an average, a run-of-the-mill--thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska unleashes the energy, over an area 10 miles x 10 miles, of tens of millions of Hiroshimas in ten minutes (fortunately nearly all of which stays up there, rather than coming down here; otherwise living things on earth would become immediately extinct).

The primitives don't see the power of nature, and how it's enormously more than the combined powers of man, because the primitives' view of the world is limited; they usually see only outside the rectangular basement window near the computer, looking at the concrete foundation of the house next door.  That's all they see, and so they think that's the whole world.

These aren't from last night--last night was extraordinary--and these are only average typical run-of-the-mill thunderstorms in the Sandhills of Nebraska (the same of which undoubtedly occur over urban Pennsylvania or New Jersey, but view of them's obscured by all the man-made things around them).

An average ordinary run-of-the-mill thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska.



An average ordinary run-of-the-mill thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska.



An average ordinary run-of-the-mill thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska.



An average ordinary run-of-the-mill thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska.



An average ordinary run-of-the-mill post-thunderstorm in the Sandhills of Nebraska.

The same sorts of things exist in the skies over anywhere from South Carolina to California, from Maine to Arizona, but because the view's obstructed by man-made things, one can't see them.

Man is nothing, not even his most malicious endeavors, nothing at all, when compared with the powers of the earth and nature and God.

[ChuckJ]

arbusto_baboso (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Mon Jun-20-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. While you do make some valid points, let me just ask one question.
   
What would be the harm in dealing with climate change as if it IS primarily man-made, and that the worst case scenarios are probably true? Do you see any harm in doing that?

OR what would be the harm in dealing with Christians as if they are correct, and that there is a God and a heaven and a hell? Do you see any harm in doing that?

[Ballygrl]

http://biggovernment.com/jdunetz/2011/05/13/nasa-gets-caught-faking-climate-change-data-again/

NASA Gets Caught Faking Climate Change Data-AGAIN!

One of the big threats from the global warming moonbat types is that a rise in temperature will melt the polar ice caps causing the oceans to rise, with the cataclysmic result of skyscrapers being under water.  Let’s face it, if you think that the commute into Manhattan is bad now….just wait.

There is only one problem with this scenario,  Mother Nature isn’t being cooperative.  You see it is true that sea level has risen during the 20th century and probably well before that.  Scientists estimate that sea level has increased by 7 inches during the 2oth century.

The climate change hoaxers use computer models to predict that sea levels would rise anywhere from 15 inches to 2o feet because of global warming in the 21st century (the consensus number is closer to 3 feet).

But Mother Nature was never good at computer science.  Satellite data proved that the first decade of the 21st century sea level grew by only 0.83 inches (a pace of just 8 inches for the entire century). What’s even worse (for the global warming hoaxers) there has been no rise since 2006.  Now I know that some Democrats believe that Obama is a miracle worker, but even the the crazies at the Daily Kos would admit that controlling sea level is way above his pay grade. So the scientists at the University of Colorado’s NASA-funded Sea Level Research Group did what any other self-respecting cult members would do, they fudged the numbers.  They simply added .3 millimeters per year to its Global Mean Sea Level Time Series. That way they could report that the sea level rise was accelerating, instead of  what was actually happening–decelerating.

-Continued at the link-

[GOBUCKS]

Mole trap.
This question at the DUmp is like asking the College of Cardinals about the existence of God.

[franksolich]

Man-made climate change, my ass.

This is the situation here up on the roof of Nebraska circa 15 minutes ago.

franksolich is right now somewhere, vaguely, in that dark red area north of Norfolk.

Watching the powers of God-made, nature-made climate change.

Nothing, nothing at all, not the whole combined explosive and environmentally-destructive forces of man since the Beginning of Time, compares with what franksolich has been watching for the past forty-five minutes.

Not even all things ever made and done by man since the beginning is even but a microscopic speck, compared with what franksolich is watching.  It's probably even a phenomenon that can be viewed by the naked eye from the moon.

Such things happen over Massachusetts or Oregon or North Carolina too, but because one's surrounded by man-made things, one doesn't see what franksolich is seeing at the moment.

[true_blood]

DUmmies still talking points with climate change talk? What a joke. Does Al Gore need more "donations" to buy another boat or jet?

[Chris_]

It's Jennifer Lopez.

[franksolich]

It's Jennifer Lopez.

One of the sheriff's deputies was here shortly after I'd signed off, checking on things; all's in good order.

The cats are all inside, and all mellow and laid back.

The cats of course being my "tornado warning."

Even if I had a camera, it'd be worthless; the human eye, much less the lenses of a camera, can't possibly fathom the extent of what is, over Nebraska at least, the energies and forces of hundreds of millions of Hiroshimas.

[Chris_]

If I lived in the middle of nowhere, I'd want a bunch of cats to watch out for me too.  There's no more selfish creature on this earth than a cat, unless you happen to live in a heavily Democratic urban voting district.

[franksolich]

If I lived in the middle of nowhere, I'd want a bunch of cats to watch out for me too.  There's no more selfish creature on this earth than a cat, unless you happen to live in a heavily Democratic urban voting district.

My guideline is "watch the animals" and currently the case, "if the power goes out, duck for cover."

It's starting to get dark here now, so no point in trying to see something.

All the cats are presently slumbering on chairs or on the floor of the dining room.

The lightning appears to be all happening to the north and the south of me, not over me.

I have no doubt Omaha's in more peril than anybody else in Nebraska.  Damn.

[franksolich]

The latest radar (8:15 p.m. central time, 7:15 p.m. mountain time) shows franksolich is now out of the red area, on the rim of the dark yellow area.  The red areas, both top and bottom, appear to be converging on.....Omaha; they're already on the western edge of that city.

Alas Omaha.  Omaha always gets it.

[GOBUCKS]

The latest radar (8:15 p.m. central time, 7:15 p.m. mountain time) shows franksolich is now out of the red area, on the rim of the dark yellow area.  The red areas, both top and bottom, appear to be converging on.....Omaha; they're already on the western edge of that city.

Alas Omaha.  Omaha always gets it.

The weather is screwing with the College World Series.
Hopefully, this delay will stiffen the arms of the Florida pitchers.
They had a tornado warning siren, which is pretty much a guarantee there will be no tornado.

[franksolich]

The weather is screwing with the College World Series.
Hopefully, this delay will stiffen the arms of the Florida pitchers.
They had a tornado warning siren, which is pretty much a guarantee there will be no tornado.

But on radar at least, it now (8:30 p.m. central time, 7:30 p.m. mountain time) appears Omaha is really getting hammered.

It usually seems to happen, when watching weather radar, that there's specks of angry red spots all over Nebraska, and as they move east, they merge, and in one big blob, hit Omaha.

It's been raining and pouring and hailing here, and windy--a really cold wind--and of course the damned trees are obstructing my view, but all's copacetic.  The cats continue to nonchalantly slumber away.

[franksolich]

Ooops, franksolich now back in an angry red blob.

[franksolich]

Now hard-core heavy-duty lightning right overhead franksolich.

Time to sign off.

[franksolich]

<<back; I'm out of the red spot, which seems to be moving down towards Omaha, where all the other red spots had moved earlier.  Omaha looks redder than I've ever seen it before.

It's a mess outside; it's dark of course, but there's trees down, and the motor vehicle got shifted from the way I'd parked it earlier, and the foliage shrouding the William Rivers Pitt is flattened.  Some traces of hail still on the ground.

[franksolich]

Well, as of 9:15 p.m. central time, 8:15 p.m. mountain time, there's been shitloads of cyclones all over Nebraska excepting, apparently, around where franksolich is.

The primitives must be rejoicing; franksolich is safe and intact.

On the map of Nebraska, such tornadoes usually seem to have occurred running, roughly, alongside the Platte River, beginning with franksolich's infancy-home in Bridgeport, and then franksolich's birthplace in North Platte, and then franksolich's childhood home sixty miles east of that, and up to franksolich's teenager-years home in the Sandhills, and then down over to the capital, Lincoln, the second city of Nebraska, where all power is currently "down," no electricity at all.  I dunno what's happening with Omaha; there haven't been any reports from Omaha for a while now--it's like Omaha's been sucked into a black hole. 

But up here on the roof of Nebraska, the eastern slope of the Sandhills, franksolich remains mellow and laid-back.

I'm sure the primitives are rejoicing.

[franksolich]

Okay, here it is, nearly 10:00 p.m. central time, 9:00 p.m. mountain time.

It's cleared up around here, although it seems there's some angry red blobs evolving on the radar west of here, where the roving partner's at, and those might, or might not, get here sometime after midnight.

I'm hitting the sack.  I'll describe the destruction around here in the morning, when there's light, and one can see.  The cats remain mellow and peacefully slumbering.

It's most odd, though, that any tornadoes that happened, took place near or around where franksolich once lived, but doesn't any more......but nothing happened where franksolich currently lives.

[thundley4]

Okay, here it is, nearly 10:00 p.m. central time, 9:00 p.m. mountain time.

It's cleared up around here, although it seems there's some angry red blobs evolving on the radar west of here, where the roving partner's at, and those might, or might not, get here sometime after midnight.

I'm hitting the sack.  I'll describe the destruction around here in the morning, when there's light, and one can see.  The cats remain mellow and peacefully slumbering.

It's most odd, though, that any tornadoes that happened, took place near or around where franksolich once lived, but doesn't any more......but nothing happened where franksolich currently lives.

You need to get an inexpensive digital camera to take pictures up there.