Author Topic: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's  (Read 5578 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« on: April 19, 2008, 06:47:20 PM »
Obama would rely much more on the heavy hand of government. Among other things, he would impose caps on insurance premiums and price controls on drug companies. He would have the government establish national practice standards for doctors. And, he would create a National Health Insurance Exchange as a sort of clearinghouse to make it easier for businesses and individuals to shop for the best insurance.

McCain would allow people to buy insurance plans across state lines, which will help drive down rates. And he would try to shift away from our current employment-based insurance system toward a system where individuals purchase and own their own insurance plans. He would do this by replacing the current tax break for employer-provided insurance with a refundable $2,500 tax credit for individuals, and $5,000 for families. The idea is that once people start to buy their own insurance, they'll be in a position to insist on lower prices and higher quality — just as they do with every other product they buy.

Overall, McCain has the better proposal. Obama's plan, with its heavy reliance on government, leads to the same problems that bedevil universal healthcare systems all over the world: limited patient choices and rationed care. McCain's proposal is much more consumer-centered and taps into the best aspects of the free market.

http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9335
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 07:45:32 PM »
I'm just hoping for massive structural changes in the near future.  It's too sad that so many people are without access to proper medical care now.

Access to medical care or just medical insurance?

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Offline Bondai

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2008, 12:10:14 PM »
I'm just hoping for massive structural changes in the near future.  It's too sad that so many people are without access to proper medical care now.

Access to medical care or just medical insurance?


Essentially, both.

 :whatever: :whatever:


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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2008, 01:04:26 PM »
I'm just hoping for massive structural changes in the near future.  It's too sad that so many people are without access to proper medical care now.

Access to medical care or just medical insurance?


Essentially, both.

Well I guess those without access to medical care need to remain without it and rid the gene pool of their stupidity
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2008, 01:26:30 PM »
Every documentary or report that tries to examine the health coverage issue comes up short. Even the Frontline PBS documentary was at a loss for the answer. They basically compared the health plans of Japan, Germany, Britian, Taiwan to America. Japan for instance, has compulsory healthcare and heavily controlled govt pricing. Profit margins are either nonexistent or slim in all of these places. And, most of the people interviewed admitted that even these dream plans (as opposed to horrible America *eyeroll*) are straining under the weight and in dire need of more funding. But they have painted themselves into a corner since the govt has clamped down on pricing/costs.

I have no idea what the answer is for America's healthcare issue. I do know that you cannot manage an infinite demand with a finite resource and I also know that bigger government control is never the answer.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2008, 09:38:29 PM »
I'm just hoping for massive structural changes in the near future.  It's too sad that so many people are without access to proper medical care now.

Access to medical care or just medical insurance?


Essentially, both.

I'm not sure I agree that there are a lot of people without access to medical care.  Having affordable access to medical insurance is a different matter.

But I wonder how many of those with out medical insurance are with out it willingly?  Folks like my son who is young and healthy and simply doesn't want to purchase the insurance that he can afford? (I'm brow beating him about it)

How many folks opt not to purchase insurance because they'd rather spend their money on full package cable tv and cell phones etc? (like a few younger single co-workers of mine)

I don't know the answers to those questions, but they do cross my mind when I hear the numbers stating how many uninsured people there are out there.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2008, 09:44:48 PM »
^I do have to question the numbers. Many people take a calculated risk and opt not to insure themselves privately. Yes, most insurance is cost prohibitive when purchased on the open market, but I've talke to a lot of healthy single people who don't see the need for medical coverage. They would rather put that money to something else.

As for insurance coverage in general, I've always thought it crazy that it's tied to your employment. Your healthcare is being decided by the HR dept and you are getting whatever options make it to the benefits package. There is no real freedom of choice. It's also expensive to "port" said coverage under COBRA if you leave that job. I have also heard many people say, "my job sucks but I can't leave because of the insurance" or "that job has great benefits". We're accustomed to having health coverage offered by our employers. I'd love to see individuals be able to use the economies of scale corporate America takes advantage of.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

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Forget change, bring back common sense.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline rich_t

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2008, 09:56:18 PM »
^I do have to question the numbers. Many people take a calculated risk and opt not to insure themselves privately. Yes, most insurance is cost prohibitive when purchased on the open market, but I've talke to a lot of healthy single people who don't see the need for medical coverage. They would rather put that money to something else.

As for insurance coverage in general, I've always thought it crazy that it's tied to your employment. Your healthcare is being decided by the HR dept and you are getting whatever options make it to the benefits package. There is no real freedom of choice. It's also expensive to "port" said coverage under COBRA if you leave that job. I have also heard many people say, "my job sucks but I can't leave because of the insurance" or "that job has great benefits". We're accustomed to having health coverage offered by our employers. I'd love to see individuals be able to use the economies of scale corporate America takes advantage of.

The points you mention here are excellent.  I think that the McCain plan mentioned in the linked article addresses some of them.

I agree with you that it is crazy to have ones medical insurance tied to an employer/employment.

I am all for capitolism in most cases, but one solution might be to make health insurance to be ran by non-profit organizations.  This would possible help reduce the higher costs of insurance that are due to some company's profit margins.

We have just over 300 million people living in this country....  That is a lot of collective bargaining power if we were allowed to actually use it when negotiating for insurance coverage.  Same applies to prescription coverage, which is a whole other kettle of smelly fish.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2008, 06:48:43 AM »
Well I do have some comments to make on McCain's plan.   

The first -- which kind of flies in the face of Cato's constant drum beating for state rights,   each state has an insurance commissioner who oversees insurance policies written in their state.  Sort of keeps a check on insurance carriers.    This takes away the state's "right" to oversee those contracts.   So if Joe blow in MI buys a policy out of FL then Godspeed pal on your complaints against that carrier should that contract's terms be violated.   You can't jump ship on your health insurance policy the way you can your auto or home policy.   McCain would have to impose some pretty hefty and uniform mandates at the Federal level to actually pull this off and simultaneously protect the consumer.   So in short, McCain's plan while pretty on paper will carry a lot more govermental controls (which they will be pulling out of the hands of the states).

This also does not address the significant and too costly problem of free care mandated of hospital emergency rooms which are just becoming too staggering for states to handle.   

States and Federal governments have multitudes of mandates on health insurance carriers as to what and who they are required to cover.  Remove those mandates and you will then start seeing competitive plans that are affordable.   I am a strong proponent for Romney's plan which is extremely successful in MA (minus the crap tagged onto it by Deval Patrick).   The issue was resolved at the state level, free care at hospitals on track to be completely eliminated, policies can be carried with employee from job to job, costly mandates removed from Insurance carriers enabling them to offer affordable plans to small business owners and individuals -- the list goes on.    The only difference between Romney and McCain is that Romney took the money spent on free care at hospitals and used it to subsidize private insurance premiums, while McCain will offer tax breaks without detailing where that money will be realized from.



 

Offline Uhhuh35

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2008, 07:01:36 AM »
Every documentary or report that tries to examine the health coverage issue comes up short. Even the Frontline PBS documentary was at a loss for the answer. They basically compared the health plans of Japan, Germany, Britian, Taiwan to America. Japan for instance, has compulsory healthcare and heavily controlled govt pricing. Profit margins are either nonexistent or slim in all of these places. And, most of the people interviewed admitted that even these dream plans (as opposed to horrible America *eyeroll*) are straining under the weight and in dire need of more funding. But they have painted themselves into a corner since the govt has clamped down on pricing/costs.
I saw that documentary too. That guy kept asking "Has anyone gone bankrupt accessing medial care in you country?". But one very important question he never asked was "What are the tax rates in your country?". The other thing that wasn't mentioned is that Japan is trying to reduce the costs of Medical care by adopting parts of the American model!
I have no idea what the answer is for America's healthcare issue. I do know that you cannot manage an infinite demand with a finite resource and I also know that bigger government control is never the answer.
Ditto!
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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2008, 08:57:27 AM »
^excellent points - that whole documentary seemed to be about how "people in America go bankrupt from medical bills! Oh the humanity!!!" And yes, he danced around the subject of taxation but never delved into it. Would have been really enlightening epecially since he never missed an opportunity to slam America's healthcare.

I would love to see insurance companies totally restructured and low cost plans made available to private individuals. The car insurance industry seems to manage this just fine. I have no idea how to make that work and I also know there will be a backlash no matter what we do. Everything has a consequence. If insurance companies are totally restructured and forced to drastically change the way they operate, there will be untold financial ramifications. Think about it. We have to do it in such a way that it creates the least impact and does the most good. You cannot restructure an entire industry without major fallout.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

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Forget change, bring back common sense.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2008, 09:04:17 AM »
^excellent points - that whole documentary seemed to be about how "people in America go bankrupt from medical bills! Oh the humanity!!!" And yes, he danced around the subject of taxation but never delved into it. Would have been really enlightening epecially since he never missed an opportunity to slam America's healthcare.

I would love to see insurance companies totally restructured and low cost plans made available to private individuals. The car insurance industry seems to manage this just fine. I have no idea how to make that work and I also know there will be a backlash no matter what we do. Everything has a consequence. If insurance companies are totally restructured and forced to drastically change the way they operate, there will be untold financial ramifications. Think about it. We have to do it in such a way that it creates the least impact and does the most good. You cannot restructure an entire industry without major fallout.

You also cannot and should not restructure a for profit industry. 

They run their companies for profit.  Remove costly and cumbersome mandates of coverage and you will get plans options that are affordable.  The fallout?   possible noncoverage of many procedures with at risk individuals paying extremely high premiums (much like the auto and home owners insurance plans).


Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2008, 09:06:18 AM »
^exactly why I cringe when I hear politicians talk about totally restructuring healthcare.

Yes, it's a problem and yes, we need to fix it. But I'm not so sure I like the options. Especially the ones proposed by liberals.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

Spread my work ethic, not my wealth.

Forget change, bring back common sense.
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No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline formerlurker

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2008, 12:59:05 PM »
You also cannot and should not restructure a for profit industry.

Honestly, I'm quite firmly against that statement.  I understand the dual edged sword of major restructuring in such a profound industry.  But every industry, particular healthcare and insurance are already massively structured in an untold number of legal rulings and laws.  All I'd advocate is a realignment of the structuring... and no I'm not necessarily advocating government provided healthcare.  Shrugs

You can't realign the industry without additional mandates on the federal level as I outlined earlier. 

You want cheaper policies?  remove mandates on coverage.  The fallout will be higher premiums for some, and much cheaper premiums for others.   If you were born lucky and are relatively healthly then you are good to go.   You have a child who spends some time in NICU then all bets are off you just jumped to the higher premium category. You never know when you are going to fall ill and once you do your premiums will jump sky high once your policy renews. 





Offline Chris_

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2008, 01:23:09 PM »
You also cannot and should not restructure a for profit industry.

Honestly, I'm quite firmly against that statement.  I understand the dual edged sword of major restructuring in such a profound industry.  But every industry, particular healthcare and insurance are already massively structured in an untold number of legal rulings and laws.  All I'd advocate is a realignment of the structuring... and no I'm not necessarily advocating government provided healthcare.  Shrugs

Always the subliminal socialist approach.......we have to come face to face with the fact that in a truly free society, there will never be "equal access", or "fair healthcare costs", or any other of this genre of progressive claptrap.....

America has the highest standards of individual healthcare on the planet.  We do the VAST majority of research on cures and advanced treatment techniques.  Our "system" develops over 90% of the new drugs and drug protocols that are used in the advanced treatment of health issues.  All of these factors that drive the truly astonishing rate of medical advances are generated by the inherent competition that exists in our "for profit" system.  There are people living healthy lives today that would have been considered "terminal" only a decade ago......and you liberal/socialist/progressive/democrat clowns want to throw that all away?  You do realize that if we do......for whatever reason......stupidly institute some form of "national healthcare"...that the bulk of the initiative for all of the research and development on advanced treatment will disappear, right??  If you artificially limit the profits of the pharma, research hospitals, & health equipment manufacturers, do you really believe that they will still have the resources and desire to continue to do cutting edge research??

I grow weary of all of the whining and so called "intellectual discourse" regarding healthcare in the US today......our system is really not broken.  Is it expensive?  Yes, is it "equitable"...No, nor will it ever be......some folks will always fall through the cracks......tough shit......

There is no constitutional guarantee to "healthcare".....you want good care, go out and "earn" the resources to pay for it, and quit whining and attempting to hold me up at gunpoint to pay for someone else who is either too stupid, too lazy, or otherwise unwilling to take care of him/herself.....

rant/off

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Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 03:20:33 PM »
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how these Socialist plans that are so wonderful in other countries are going broke and what they are going to do to fix them.
I can see November 2 from my house!!!

Spread my work ethic, not my wealth.

Forget change, bring back common sense.
-------------------------------------------------

No, my friends, there’s only one really progressive idea. And that is the idea of legally limiting the power of the government. That one genuinely liberal, genuinely progressive idea — the Why in 1776, the How in 1787 — is what needs to be conserved. We need to conserve that fundamentally liberal idea. That is why we are conservatives. --Bill Whittle

Offline rich_t

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 09:52:18 PM »
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how these Socialist plans that are so wonderful in other countries are going broke and what they are going to do to fix them.

They can't be fixed IMO.

I can't think of a single country where socialized medicine has ever worked as advertised.  Those countries that have it have much higher income tax rates and the medical care leaves a lot to be desired from what I have read and heard.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Health Care & Insurance: McCain's Plan Bests Obama's
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 11:40:56 AM »
In general, I'm with you in agreement that the American medical system has the capacity for the highest standards of individual health care.  Where my bleeding heart departs though, is that for the average American... not so much, and that doesn't sit well.  Our system is wonderful, for those catastrophically ill, or just wanting access to frivolous procedures!  As I've mentioned before, I'm a bit at a loss, nor do I propose any answers.

However your average medical clinic is not on the lead of this cutting edge research or actively contributing to the development of advanced procedures.  Now that I think of it, it's almost like Germany's two tiered system... except, we're not benefiting from the reduced costs of the one side.


Well...I consider myself, and our children pretty much average Americans, and we collectively have no complaints about medical care in this country.  Several years ago, my wife developed vision problems, and was quickly referred to a group that truly provided "cutting edge" care, all the way out to treatment protocols that were not, as yet, FDA approved.  As a result, although significantly diminished, she still has functional eyesight.  Were she treated in one of the socalist paradises of western Europe, she would have been written off due to her age, and told to go sit in the corner and go blind quietly.  Her physician, who actually interned in the UK, told us that this was exactly standard practice for her prognosis under their national healthcare system.

Five years ago, my brother developed a virulent form of cancer, that typically kills the victim within months.  His health insurance carrier quickly had him transported to Sloan-Kettering where he received again "cutting edge" care, and as a result, he survived for over three years.  He would have been treated conventionally, and "written off", in Canada, UK, France, Germany, or any of the others.

In all of these personal experiences, understand that we actually PAY for quality health insurance, and the carriers treated our situations with effective treatment at minimal costs to us during the situations involved.  The carrier that my wife and I have, (Aetna PPO) continually monitors our health, and frequently calls us to remind us that we need to contact our primary care physician for checkups and ongoing care for certain health situations.........they are excellent.

I suspect that your "heart bleeds" not for the average American, but for those who, frequently for reasons of their own life choices, do not avail thenselves of the health care opportunities that we have in this country.  For example.......one of our neighbors (a retired teacher) has a daughter who is able-bodied, and capable of providing for herself.  She, however, has had two children without benefit of a husband, lives with a nere-do-well guy on a "poverty farm" outside of town, receives ADC payments, as well as Medicaid.....further, she raises feeds, and cares for three horses, and buys all of the necessary accouterments, such as a horse trailer, pickup, riding apparel, and tack.  I will not argue with you that this woman likely did not receive "cutting edge" medical care, when one of her useless children stole a handgun from his grandfather and managed to shoot himself in the hand last year.......my point is I don't really give a damn whether she did or not........she chose to spend her limited resources on horses instead of decent health insurance.......her choice.  It is not the responsibility of the responsible members of society to provide for those who act irresponsibly.

doc
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