FAA warns pilots in Las Vegas - Fly without GPS

[Evil_Conservative]

This is an issue only in Las Vegas at the moment.  There is some company testing out 4G and it's screwing with all of our GPS systems (not just airplanes) in Las Vegas after midnight.  This is for a "free internetz for all!!!!11111" program from what I have read so far.  It's being tested only in Las Vegas. 

Something like this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy considering we live just outside the flight path and located just two miles from the airport.

My husband works with the GPS for two separate rental car companies.  They have had eight separate issues just in the past few days where the GPS would just flat out lose signal or throw them off course.  The airplane thing is my biggest concern.

Nellis AFB was doing war game tests, but they had to do it blindly because of the GPS issues.  Sounds great, huh? 

Here is a link if anyone is interested in looking into this further:

Pilots said they see some irony in FAA's warning given the effort expended by regulators and the airline industry to keep passengers from jamming cockpit equipment.
"Flight attendants tell you to turn off your cellphones and your Kindles and whatever else because it may interfere the plane's electronics ... and yet I got this notice from FAA that somebody is going to do exactly the same thing, which is interfere with the navigation of the airplane," said John Gadzinski, an airline captain and aviation safety consultant.


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/18/2222931/faa-warns-pilots-in-las-vegas.html#ixzz1Mqi9PXAh

[Thor]

Knowing what I do about GPS, I seriously doubt that the military around Vegas is doing without. I won't get into the specifics because I enjoy liberty. (It's that pesky non-disclosure thing I signed before I retired about 10 years in jail and/ or up to a $250K fine)  However, the military and the rest of civilization got by just fine before GPS. I'm sure they'll get by if GPS ever ceased.

[DefiantSix]

Knowing what I do about GPS, I seriously doubt that the military around Vegas is doing without. I won't get into the specifics because I enjoy liberty. (It's that pesky non-disclosure thing I signed before I retired about 10 years in jail and/ or up to a $250K fine)  However, the military and the rest of civilization got by just fine before GPS. I'm sure they'll get by if GPS ever ceased.

I think I still remember how to orienteer with a paper map and compass.  They still make those, right? 

[Evil_Conservative]

Knowing what I do about GPS, I seriously doubt that the military around Vegas is doing without. I won't get into the specifics because I enjoy liberty. (It's that pesky non-disclosure thing I signed before I retired about 10 years in jail and/ or up to a $250K fine)  However, the military and the rest of civilization got by just fine before GPS. I'm sure they'll get by if GPS ever ceased.

True.

My husband would lose his job though.

[Evil_Conservative]

I have a scenario for you.

What if a plane was hijacked over Las Vegas between 11pm and 5am, how would the plane be tracked? 

[DefiantSix]

I have a scenario for you.

What if a plane was hijacked over Las Vegas between 11pm and 5am, how would the plane be tracked? 

By it's transponder signal and radar.  GPS has nothing to do with it.  An aircraft's interaction with the GPS system is solely as a passive receiver.

[Evil_Conservative]

By it's transponder signal and radar.  GPS has nothing to do with it.  An aircraft's interaction with the GPS system is solely as a passive receiver.

So the radar signals wouldn't be affected by those in the "electromagnetic spectrum" (took that from the article)?  From what I understand, pilots rely heavily on their GPS units to fly at night.  Yes, they can fly at night without them, but isn't it more dangerous to do without GPS for night flights?  Sorry if I am not asking this correctly.  I just figured it would be like flying blind.

I'm not a pilot and I do not work for the FAA, but I would think messing with the GPS of our pilots does put lives in danger.  Not only in the air, but on the ground as well.

[DefiantSix]

So the radar signals wouldn't be affected by those in the "electromagnetic spectrum" (took that from the article)?  From what I understand, pilots rely heavily on their GPS units to fly at night.  Yes, they can fly at night without them, but isn't it more dangerous to do without GPS for night flights?  Sorry if I am not asking this correctly.  I just figured it would be like flying blind.

I'm not a pilot and I do not work for the FAA, but I would think messing with the GPS of our pilots does put lives in danger.  Not only in the air, but on the ground as well.

Radar signals - and the associated radar transponder emissions - are in one band of frequencies.  GPS signals are in a completely different band of frequencies.  What affects one isn't likely to affect the other unless the problematic signal is enormously powerful.  4G innerwebz signals aren't that powerful.

Pilots CAN rely almost exclusively on GPS systems to fly at night, but because individual systems can fail, there are other systems in place - most of them pre-dating GPS - that the pilots can use in the event of such a a system failure.  It's not a requirement, but the most obvious one for a night flight, is to fly IFR (Instrument Flight Rules); where your route is monitored by radar controllers throughout, and you fly from one ground-based radio navigation beacon to the next on pre-defined "air highways" and assigned altitudes.

[Thor]

And, military aircraft have the same and other nav systems to navigate by at night or day as civilian aircraft do.

[Evil_Conservative]

And, military aircraft have the same and other nav systems to navigate by at night or day as civilian aircraft do.

I am aware of this.  My husband says their company (as well as many others) use the same satellites the military does for their GPS.  So when I hear about the GPS cutting in and out frequently between 11pm-5am, you already know military GPS is also acting up. 

How do you all feel about the FCC approving such rubbish for "free internet for everyone", when this program is already causing known problems to GPS?  What happens when it goes live and these outages happen 24/7?

[Rebel]

I think I still remember how to orienteer with a paper map and compass.  They still make those, right? 

Not to mention in VFR conditions you can make out an airport, especially a major airport, with ease at 30K'.

[DumbAss Tanker]

It's open-source, btw, but from Gulf II onward long-distance smart weapons, like cruise missiles, use primarily GPS, and it is vastly more reliable than the intertial navigation systems which preceded it (Excellent as they were in their day).  It would seem the 4g technology, which will be very accessible to international players once fielded (And almost certainly manufactured in SE Asia or India anyway) offers a path to counter our stand-off weapons.

[thelaughingman]

Good gosh.  How did we ever survive as a species before GPS?

[Evil_Conservative]

Good gosh.  How did we ever survive as a species before GPS?

I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything, but we are taking this issue seriously in our home.  My husband's job DOES deal with GPS about 98% of the time.  Like I said, when these GPS outages occur, the customers come back and get a 100% refund off their rental.  My husband's company loses money when that happens... duh.  If it happens consistently, the company shuts down and my husband is SOL and unemployed. 

This is 2011, not 1950.  I have a GPS, but don't use it much at all unless I am searching for the closest Starbucks.  Think of all the different industries which currently use GPS and how knocking out services would affect them.

[Thor]

I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything, but we are taking this issue seriously in our home.  My husband's job DOES deal with GPS about 98% of the time.  Like I said, when these GPS outages occur, the customers come back and get a 100% refund off their rental.  My husband's company loses money when that happens... duh.  If it happens consistently, the company shuts down and my husband is SOL and unemployed. 

This is 2011, not 1950.  I have a GPS, but don't use it much at all unless I am searching for the closest Starbucks.  Think of all the different industries which currently use GPS and how knocking out services would affect them.

I feel for your husband to some extent, but GPS wasn't placed into space for the casual user. It was military oriented. The civilian market just took advantage of it. I have some thoughts on the issue, but.....

[thelaughingman]

I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything, but we are taking this issue seriously in our home.  My husband's job DOES deal with GPS about 98% of the time.  Like I said, when these GPS outages occur, the customers come back and get a 100% refund off their rental.  My husband's company loses money when that happens... duh.  If it happens consistently, the company shuts down and my husband is SOL and unemployed. 

This is 2011, not 1950.  I have a GPS, but don't use it much at all unless I am searching for the closest Starbucks.  Think of all the different industries which currently use GPS and how knocking out services would affect them.

I feel for your husband.  I honestly do.  I was referring more to the issue of people considering the loss of GPS to be some huge crisis.  Learn to read a frickin' map, people!  Come on!

(p.s. - I personally think your husband's company should reconsider that policy.)

[DefiantSix]

(p.s. - I personally think your husband's company should reconsider that policy.)

At the very least, post a notice in their storefronts that while X-company is testing their 4G innerwebz system (until such and such date), XYZ rentals will be suspending the "Get a Free Rental if the GPS Don't Work" deal.

[IassaFTots]

At the very least, post a notice in their storefronts that while X-company is testing their 4G innerwebz system (until such and such date), XYZ rentals will be suspending the "Get a Free Rental if the GPS Don't Work" deal.

Good idea D6.  Very good idea.  I wonder what people will do if GPS simply doesn't work, or becomes unreliable.  No power, no GPS...  Oh never mind, I can orienteer. 

[DefiantSix]

Good idea D6.  Very good idea.  I wonder what people will do if GPS simply doesn't work, or becomes unreliable.  No power, no GPS...  Oh never mind, I can orienteer. 

All those GPS dependent folks are gonna be screwed, blued and tattooed if some Muzzie whack job ever decides to put a nuke on top of a Scud and punt it to high altitude somewhere in the western hemisphere.  EMP takes down GPS sats along with every other unshielded electrical circuit.

[IassaFTots]

All those GPS dependent folks are gonna be screwed, blued and tattooed if some Muzzie whack job ever decides to put a nuke on top of a Scud and punt it to high altitude somewhere in the western hemisphere.  EMP takes down GPS sats along with every other unshielded electrical circuit.

Yup.  Call me weird  but everything I plan for, I plan with no electricity.  Amazing how much it is a part of our lives. 

[rich_t]

A high altitude scud?

Surely you jest.

 

[Thor]

Don't call him Shirley.......

[formerlurker]

I think it is most helpful to national security that the FAA has made this a public warning.    China and Russia pay no attention to this confirmation that this mechanism can send the airline industry into havoc.   

Stupid is as stupid does. 

The military doesn't need GPS.   

[DefiantSix]

I think it is most helpful to national security that the FAA has made this a public warning.    China and Russia pay no attention to this confirmation that this mechanism can send the airline industry into havoc.   

Stupid is as stupid does. 

The military doesn't need GPS.   

The airline industry doesn't NEED GPS:  ATP pilots have all been thoroughly trained on how to follow a paper map, "victor" routes, find the frequency for a beacon, and calculate course drift based upon wind speed and direction.  They have the tools; they're just whining because somebody is disturbing their nap time.

The military on the other hand DOES need GPS as an essential component enabling it to work the war fighting miracles we lazy bastards have come to expect of them.  Take away GPS, and a fat chunk of all precision guided munitions - you know, the stuff that permits us to drop a bomb on a headquarters and decapitate a division, instead of having to bleed a river of blood fighting our way through all of the poor schlub privates, corporals and sergeants standing between our guys and that general - are instantly lobotomized.  All of those unmanned drones making life miserable for the bad guys?  They'd need pilots on board them if it weren't for GPS.  Without GPS, warfighting goes back to being a much more brutal affair; something most American candy-asses will no longer tolerate, now that they've been spoiled so.

[formerlurker]

The airline industry doesn't NEED GPS:  ATP pilots have all been thoroughly trained on how to follow a paper map, "victor" routes, find the frequency for a beacon, and calculate course drift based upon wind speed and direction.  They have the tools; they're just whining because somebody is disturbing their nap time.

The military on the other hand DOES need GPS as an essential component enabling it to work the war fighting miracles we lazy bastards have come to expect of them.  Take away GPS, and a fat chunk of all precision guided munitions - you know, the stuff that permits us to drop a bomb on a headquarters and decapitate a division, instead of having to bleed a river of blood fighting our way through all of the poor schlub privates, corporals and sergeants standing between our guys and that general - are instantly lobotomized.  All of those unmanned drones making life miserable for the bad guys?  They'd need pilots on board them if it weren't for GPS.  Without GPS, warfighting goes back to being a much more brutal affair; something most American candy-asses will no longer tolerate, now that they've been spoiled so.

The military has plenty of aircraft that do not need GPS to get the job done.   Husband is a retired USAF radar navigator.