Author Topic: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.  (Read 7614 times)

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Offline thundley4

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The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« on: May 11, 2011, 02:06:41 PM »
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The Northerner (1000+ posts)             Tue May-10-11 08:20 PM
Original message
U.S. Postal Service reports $2.2 billion loss
   
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The U.S. Postal Service continues to hemorrhage money, with a loss of $2.2 billion in the most recent quarter.

The national mail service said on Tuesday that it expects to have a cash shortfall and reach its statutory borrowing limit by the time its fiscal year ends in September. That means the agency could be forced to default on some of its payments to the federal government.

Patrick Donahoe, the Postmaster General, said the service is still seeking changes to federal laws that would allow it to change its business model and potentially save enough money to avoid a default.

"The Postal Service may return to financial stability only through significant changes to the laws that limit flexibility and impose undue financial burdens," Donahoe said in a statement.

Read more: http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/10/news/companies/usps_ear...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1079126

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Occulus   (1000+ posts)             Tue May-10-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. It was, IIRC, part of the major postal legislation passed some years back.
   
I personally think it was an attempt to artificially drive USPS into the red for the purpose of ultimate privatization. But for that requirement, the USPS would, by all accounts, be in fine financial shape, still "losing" money but still in the black.

The financial health of the USPS should be of no concern, IMO. The USPS is supposed to be a service, not a business. Note that it is BUSINESSMEN that have driven it into the ground, and that's only happened since the USPS was ordered to run itself like a BUSINESS.

The entire legislation ought to be revisited, if you ask me. It's been a bad deal for everyone involved (which was probably the point).

Right, and all the restrictions placed on it to protect the unions have nothing to do with them losing money.  :mental:

Quote
tammywammy   (1000+ posts)           Tue May-10-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, it does sound like it definitely should be reversed.
   
I don't use the post office much, but there's nothing like mailing and/or receiving a hand written card. Email can't replace everything. Yesterday my lovely mail man delivered a text book I had ordered used via Amazon. I can't get a text book via email.

Sure you can, ever hear of PDF or ebooks?

Quote
Hannah Bell   (1000+ posts)             Wed May-11-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
56. it isn't "their" business model. it's the model that was forced on them by congress
   
in the interest of private corps.
:mental:

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Occulus   (1000+ posts)             Tue May-10-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. +1000
   
I can tell you WHY the USPS has too many EAS employees, though. They don't want to promote people who actually work and actually move the mail and actually do a good job doing that because they need those people out on the floor, doing the work, moving the mail, and doing a good job doing so!

USPS will never promote experienced, hard working clerk employees because those are the exact people they need. Lazy workers, complete idiots, and born bootlickers will always get promoted because the USPS doesn't want those people handling mail, where they could make a serious mistake that does actual harm to the customer.

We have an entire shift run by managers who shouldn't be in charge of the cleanup of a puddle of catsick. One of them failed her EAS interview five times, one of them has only ever worked in a different craft and has no automation experience at all, and the head honcho doesn't know what the words "shall provide" mean in relation to a binding arbitration agreement.

Get rid of the bad managers, put competent people in thir place, and USPS would be much better off.

Union rules don't allow for firing incompetent workers, they just get promoted. 

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Hannah Bell   (1000+ posts)             Wed May-11-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. no, what is killing the post office was put in motion long ago, when congress "reformed"
   
Edited on Wed May-11-11 12:35 PM by Hannah Bell
the post office to give business to ups/fed ex and make usps a junk mail service.

Private businesses doing at a profit what the government can't. *charter and private schools*

Quote
mailman82   (156 posts)           Tue May-10-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. He is right!
   
I retired in Dec. the pre funding dates back to Raygun. In 1984 he wanted all PO employs on SS. Our retirement was paid for by the new people coming in. That would stop, hence the deal was made so we Civil Servants would not loose what we had already paid in, and that we would have a pension when we retired.
The management has always been top heavy,we could never understand why an office of 120 employees needed 5 supervisors. The harassment was heavy every day. That is one of the reasons I got out. I am not rich but I am getting along well. One reason is I worked mucho overtime so I could pay my house off early.

Sounds like a pyramid scheme.

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Thrill (1000+ posts)             Tue May-10-11 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have no solutions for how to help the post office
   
especially without hurting the workers

Sometimes jobs are lost to progress. 


Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 02:15:54 PM »
If they would just double or triple the rate they charge junk mail distributors, USPS headcount could be reduced by 50%, first class rates could be reduced, and landfill costs greatly reduced.

Just check the volume of mail received by your household, and then compare it to the volume of mail you read before throwing it away.
At my house, I'm sure at least 90% goes into the trash unopened, and junk mailers pay a tiny fraction of what it costs to deliver.

It would be great if it were illegal to put anything in the mail addressed to "Occupant".

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 02:17:22 PM »
In terms of current operations they are actually doing pretty well, like the auto industry it is the pension overhead that's killing them. 

Problem is (As you can tell from reading between the lines to ferret out the background facts, to which the DUmmies seem oddly oblivious) that Congress actually runs the train rather than the Postmaster General. 

No organization could possibly succeed with 536 politicians (Them plus the Prez), none of them directly accountable for the outcome and each with his or her own agenda and constituency, controlling what it does and how it's managed. 
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Offline thundley4

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 02:20:48 PM »
Hannah Bell likes to blame the businessmen for running it into the ground, but like DAT says it's congress that is to blame. 

Offline dandi

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 02:26:06 PM »
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tammywammy   (1000+ posts)           Tue May-10-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, it does sound like it definitely should be reversed.
   
I don't use the post office much, but there's nothing like mailing and/or receiving a hand written card. Email can't replace everything. Yesterday my lovely mail man delivered a text book I had ordered used via Amazon. I can't get a text book via email.

Wow....  Just, wow....
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 02:32:58 PM »
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tammywammy   (1000+ posts)           Tue May-10-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, it does sound like it definitely should be reversed.
   
I don't use the post office much, but there's nothing like mailing and/or receiving a hand written card. Email can't replace everything. Yesterday my lovely mail man delivered a text book I had ordered used via Amazon. I can't get a text book via email.

Hand  written
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air  port
DUmb  ass

Offline Chris_

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 02:43:54 PM »
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 02:45:55 PM »
Tammywammy has been like a duck to water now that she is at the DUmp full-time again.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 03:45:33 PM »
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tammywammy   (1000+ posts)           Tue May-10-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, it does sound like it definitely should be reversed.
   
I don't use the post office much, but there's nothing like mailing and/or receiving a hand written card. Email can't replace everything. Yesterday my lovely mail man delivered a text book I had ordered used via Amazon. I can't get a text book via email.

Ever hear of FedEx? UPS?
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Offline jukin

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 04:35:11 PM »
For each inefficient unionized postal worker there are 3.5 retired unionized postal workers.

When you are the beneficiary of someone’s kindness and generosity, it produces a sense of gratitude and community.

When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Offline LC EFA

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 04:55:31 PM »
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Thrill (1000+ posts)             Tue May-10-11 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have no solutions for how to help the post office
   
especially without hurting the workers

If it was up to you DUmmies we'd still be using the horse and cart to get around because the introduction of the motorised vehicle would put all those farriers and other related equine specialists out of work.

That would be unacceptable by DU standards.

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 05:16:11 PM »
Ever hear of FedEx? UPS?

Actually, FedEx and UPS have agreements with the USPS to deliver some of their more out of the way parcels.  Makes sense, since USPS delivers to every address in the US, everyday.

Back during Reagan, the Postmaster General got rid of a lot of unneeded upper management.  Postal Service had 1 supervisor for every 5 workers at the time, the PMG pared it down to 1 for 8.  Now, it's inching back up to 1 for 5. 

The Postal Service at one time had a $9 billion surplus, but like all government agencies, it has to pay all surpluses back to the FedGov at the end of the year.  IF it had been allowed to KEEP its surplus, it would still be in the black.  (Thanks to "Tip" O'Neil and the rest of the Demonrats in Congress back then.)
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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
Quote
Note that it is BUSINESSMEN that have driven it into the ground,

One minute business are making obscene profits.

The next minute business couldn't pull a profit running bars and whorehouses next to military bases.

I guess it just depends which narrative one needs at a given moment.
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 04:40:07 AM »
One minute business are making obscene profits.

The next minute business couldn't pull a profit running bars and whorehouses next to military bases.

I guess it just depends which narrative one needs at a given moment.

If you expect leftists to be consistent in any given argument - I'ma bitchslap your ass into the ground.
 

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 05:05:45 AM »
If you expect leftists to be consistent in any given argument - I'ma bitchslap your ass into the ground.
 

I beg to differ. DUmmies are very consistant. They are consistently inconsistent.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 09:03:10 AM »
Ever hear of FedEx? UPS?

Yeah, they're great if you want to pay $20 per residential delivery...and if you live in a rural area, just two days a week for FedEx, unless they re-route it through the Post Office.
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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 09:23:58 AM »
Yeah, they're great if you want to pay $20 per residential delivery...and if you live in a rural area, just two days a week for FedEx, unless they re-route it through the Post Office.

....but we were talking about a package purchased off Amazon. I've never received anything from Amazon through the USPS. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it has never happened to me.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 09:27:35 AM »
Yeah, they're great if you want to pay $20 per residential delivery...and if you live in a rural area, just two days a week for FedEx, unless they re-route it through the Post Office.

BTW, let's think about what you said here. Sounds like an efficient model of how mail could be delivered without bleeding sums of cash. Run all city to city traffic (bulk deliveries) through UPS and FedEx. Use the USPS for the sorting of those bulk deliveries and then the local routes. Are you saying that it takes more than 2 dollars (about the sum of an average batch of mail) to get my mail to my box, when he's in the area collecting that from everyone? 100 homes would be 200 bucks. He'd spend, what, 10 dollars on gas in that one little area? Not to mention they deliver to a lot more than 100 homes.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2011, 09:33:35 AM »
....but we were talking about a package purchased off Amazon. I've never received anything from Amazon through the USPS. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it has never happened to me.

I really wasn't talking about one particular transaction, because for any one individual transaction you could pick one where the seller was only 30 miles away and argue that USPS, UPS, and FedEx should all be out of business because you could go pick that one up yourself, which adds nothing to the whole argument about whether there should even be a post office.  The thread and response to it here is really about whether we ought to even have a USPS and how is should be managed.  I have heard far too many talking head fiscal conservatives flap their NYC-centric gums about how UPS or FedEx could replace the whole thing, which is frankly stupid.  Their views on it are as uneducated and unrealistic as those of New Yorkers who don't see why people need cars, since they could just take a cab or take the train.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 09:43:22 AM »
We've come a long way from 3 cent letters and 2 cent post cards.
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Offline franksolich

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2011, 09:44:06 AM »
If they would just double or triple the rate they charge junk mail distributors, USPS headcount could be reduced by 50%, first class rates could be reduced, and landfill costs greatly reduced.

Just check the volume of mail received by your household, and then compare it to the volume of mail you read before throwing it away.

At my house, I'm sure at least 90% goes into the trash unopened, and junk mailers pay a tiny fraction of what it costs to deliver.

It would be great if it were illegal to put anything in the mail addressed to "Occupant".

There was a time--although no one here's old enough to remember it--when the post office made two deliveries every day, to each address, one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

It was actually possible for a letter to be posted in one city in the morning, and received in another (nearby) city in the afternoon, the same day.

This twice-a-day service was ended sometime during the 1950s.

The unanticipated consequence of this "efficiency" was that the post office suddenly needed storage room it hadn't needed before (as the mail was always moving, no need to store it), immense square miles of storage room to hold the mail until it could be delivered the next day.

There was a time--although no one here's old enough to remember it--when the post office sorted and delivered long-distance mail via railway train; they actually had guys on the train, sorting mail and putting it into bags or cubbyholes (as needed), picking up and dropping off large bags of mail as the train passed by each town.  The mail was always moving, never standing still.

This had largely disappeared by the 1960s, being replaced with sending all long-distance mail via airplane.

The unanticipated consequence of this "efficiency" was that the post office suddenly needed even more storage room it hadn't needed before, to hold the mail for shipping.  And because the mail just sat around in airports most of the time, waiting for the next flight, long-distance delivery became slower and more cumbersome.

And then there's this bulk-mailing bit.

Back when I was in college, when first-class postage was 15 cents, I read a book (now long gone; I don't even recall its title) about the postal service, in which it was said that bulk-mailing was subsidized by users of first-class postage, and that if the post office handled only first-class mail, no junk or special rates, efficiencies would be such that postal rates, again at the time 15 cents, could be lowered to eight and a half cents.

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2011, 09:54:17 AM »
BTW, let's think about what you said here. Sounds like an efficient model of how mail could be delivered without bleeding sums of cash. Run all city to city traffic (bulk deliveries) through UPS and FedEx. Use the USPS for the sorting of those bulk deliveries and then the local routes. Are you saying that it takes more than 2 dollars (about the sum of an average batch of mail) to get my mail to my box, when he's in the area collecting that from everyone? 100 homes would be 200 bucks. He'd spend, what, 10 dollars on gas in that one little area? Not to mention they deliver to a lot more than 100 homes.

Rural mail is generally delivered by contract carriers, not postal employees.  Right now two bucks wouldn't come close to hitting a hundred mailboxes on gas alone around here, let alone the price of actually paying the guy who's driving, who can probably hit only about 30-45 mailboxes per hour.  Even in the 'burbs, which sounds like the context you're talking about, since the 13th Amendment was passed we can't make people deliver stuff for the cost of gas alone, and as far as the cost of gas goes, Government mileage figures are based on about twice the average cost of gas per mile, in order to take into account wear and tear on the vehicle.

The USPS does use contract carriers city to city, btw.  Their personnel costs are all on the sorting, intake/distribution, and local counter staff end of things, not the long-haul transportation end of it.       
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2011, 09:56:41 AM »
There was a time--although no one here's old enough to remember it--when the post office made two deliveries every day, to each address, one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

It was actually possible for a letter to be posted in one city in the morning, and received in another (nearby) city in the afternoon, the same day.

This twice-a-day service was ended sometime during the 1950s.

The unanticipated consequence of this "efficiency" was that the post office suddenly needed storage room it hadn't needed before (as the mail was always moving, no need to store it), immense square miles of storage room to hold the mail until it could be delivered the next day.

There was a time--although no one here's old enough to remember it--when the post office sorted and delivered long-distance mail via railway train; they actually had guys on the train, sorting mail and putting it into bags or cubbyholes (as needed), picking up and dropping off large bags of mail as the train passed by each town.  The mail was always moving, never standing still.

This had largely disappeared by the 1960s, being replaced with sending all long-distance mail via airplane.

The unanticipated consequence of this "efficiency" was that the post office suddenly needed even more storage room it hadn't needed before, to hold the mail for shipping.  And because the mail just sat around in airports most of the time, waiting for the next flight, long-distance delivery became slower and more cumbersome.

And then there's this bulk-mailing bit.

Back when I was in college, when first-class postage was 15 cents, I read a book (now long gone; I don't even recall its title) about the postal service, in which it was said that bulk-mailing was subsidized by users of first-class postage, and that if the post office handled only first-class mail, no junk or special rates, efficiencies would be such that postal rates, again at the time 15 cents, could be lowered to eight and a half cents.

Politicians are like primitives, they think things only halfway through.  Once they think to a desired conclusion, they stop thinking.
I remember when we got two mail deliveries per day, but it would only be in the week before Christmas. Our small-town mail carriers were on foot, and I guess the additional weight of all the Christmas cards was too much for a single trip. In those days, the avalanche of junk mail we suffer today did not exist.

And it seems to me it was well into the 60s when we were still buying "Air Mail" stamps, and those special envelopes designated for air mail.

Offline Rebel

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 09:59:24 AM »
Rural mail is generally delivered by contract carriers, not postal employees.  Right now two bucks wouldn't come close to hitting a hundred mailboxes on gas alone around here, let alone the price of actually paying the guy who's driving, who can probably hit only about 30-45 mailboxes per hour.  Even in the 'burbs, which sounds like the context you're talking about, since the 13th Amendment was passed we can't make people deliver stuff for the cost of gas alone, and as far as the cost of gas goes, Government mileage figures are based on about twice the average cost of gas per mile, in order to take into account wear and tear on the vehicle.

The USPS does use contract carriers city to city, btw.  Their personnel costs are all on the sorting, intake/distribution, and local counter staff end of things, not the long-haul transportation end of it.      

Wouldn't that even out in the long run since most people don't live in rural areas, but pay the same AS the people in the rural areas? Also, I'm not saying people should work for free, so I don't know why you injected that strawman. Suggesting that we just keep up with the status quo and keep bleeding tax dollars isn't plausible.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The USPS: Government efficiency at its finest.
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2011, 10:05:41 AM »
Also, I'm not saying people should work for free, so I don't know why you injected that strawman.

Are you saying that it takes more than 2 dollars (about the sum of an average batch of mail) to get my mail to my box, when he's in the area collecting that from everyone? 100 homes would be 200 bucks. He'd spend, what, 10 dollars on gas in that one little area?  Not to mention they deliver to a lot more than 100 homes. Umm, okay, whatever.   :whatever:

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Suggesting that we just keep up with the status quo and keep bleeding tax dollars isn't plausible.


True.  They need to raise prices to reflect what it actually costs, including their legacy personnel costs.
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