primitive questions organic food, food cooperative, profiteers

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x103897

Oh my.

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:35 PM
Original message
 
Why are the prices at my Co-op so much higher?

The produce, all allegedly grown locally (within 50 miles) and organic, costs 30-50% more than the local chain grocery where the produce comes from all over (especially mexico and south america this time of year).
The organic meat is nearly TWICE what the exact same brand costs in the chain grocery. In fact, one can find identical items on the shelves of the co-op and on the shelves of the chain grocery, and in every single instance, the co-op is much more expensive.

Why?

geardaddy  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. My guess is that the farms growing the produce or raising the animals are a lot smaller than factory farms.

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
4. Yes, but the cost of transport to market is vitually nil.

I guess the bottom line is, prices need to be competitive if we want people to "eat locally".

geardaddy  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
 
18. I agree.

I'm just saying that the cost of production is likely higher for a small organic farm. Until more farms come about, it's pretty much up to the ones that exist to establish the price and if there are fewer farms, there's less competition. Plus, they don't get subsidized by the Dept of Ag like factory farms do.

BanzaiBonnie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. One factor may be that organic feed is more expensive

Your co-op may be paying a living wage to those who work there. Those who are working in the fields may be paid fairly.

Workers in other countries may be paid slave wages. Would you steal from another person? No? When people are paid in slave wages, isn't that a theft of their life energy?

And by slave wages, I mean wages that are not enough to take care of basic needs. Wages that keep them coming back, but not enough to put adequate food on the table.

But that's not up to you? Right? You're not buying those products.

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
 
6. I do not appreciate you insinuating that I advocate wage slavery and theft.

I have a family to feed, and a limited income to do it on. I have to make smart fiscal decisions, so I ensure I maximize my purchasing power. I cannot AFFORD to shop at the co-op. I want to support eating locally, but it is cost prohibitive to do so.

BanzaiBonnie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
 
14. So, you're worried that if you don't have cheap food you won't be able to feed your family?

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
 
15. Why so obtuse?

BanzaiBonnie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
 
17. Why are you so afriad of facing the discomfort of feelings this brings up for you?

When someone asks a question, I answer as sincerely and honestly as I can. When the response is to call me out and make unfounded accusations, rather than genuine response, I wonder if you really want to be part of this community.

Did you want discussion, or did you just want someone to agree with you?

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
 
21. The only discomfort is having to endure your asinine BS.

Perhaps if you had started off by NOT accusing me of horrible things....

laconicsax  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
 
23. C'mon cleanhippie, you know that people who can't afford the 'responsible' choice are evil.

Don't you love RW reasoning?

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
 
24. Apparently so. For a second there, I thought I was on a liberal forum....

fredamae (100 posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. They can't order as much?

Smaller orders cost more. I have wondered the same thing, actually.

OneTenthofOnePercent  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
 
5. Two reasons... 

1) Factory farms do what they do for a reason. Their means of production produce far larger harvests and marketable items. Greater yields, easier crop maintenence, automated processes... it all means more production from the same parcel of land. This makes factory-farmed foods cheaper. Obviously, underpaid foreign labor is cheaper too.

2) You shop at a Co-op for "better food". It's healthier and it supports a local economy. By definition, you shop there because you have higher standards and specific demands. a) "better" food is always going to cost more than "inferior" food due to demand. If it did not, then the "inferior" brand would not exist due to market forces. b) The Co-op knows your a picky shopper and is just fleecing you for money they know you are probably willing to pay.

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
 
7. Your second point seems spot on.

But the term "better food" is suspect. I have seen no real scientific evidence that organic food is more nutritious than "regular" food, so I am suspect about those claims.

And how are identical products, one on the shelf at my co-op, the other on the shelf at the chain grocery, any different other than the exorbitant price the co-op sells it for? "Better food?" Hardly.

Fleecing me? I think you have hit the nail on the head.

geardaddy  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
 
19. Then don't shop at the coop.

Problem solved.

Dorian Gray  (1000+ posts)        Wed Apr-20-11 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
 
28. True

I live in Park Slope in Brooklyn, and there is a Co-op here. I've never joined it (for a variety of reasons), and I don't intend to. And it's never occurred to me to complain about it. I just don't go.

Dorian Gray  (1000+ posts)        Wed Apr-20-11 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
 
27. To some people "better' doesn't mean solely nutritious. It might mean, full of less pesticides, not genetically modified, or chemically altered. It might also mean... locally sourced, less of an environmental impact. And joining a Co-op might engender a sense of community, as well. When I claim food is "better," it's not necessarily about nutrition.

PetrusMonsFormicarum  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
 
8. OG certification is expensive.

I sling organic produce in a natural foods grocery.

Fuel surcharges have returned to delivery invoices (in some cases, they hadn't gone away since the last gas price spike). Weird weather has taken a toll on numerous crops in numerous regions. California's Spring went from record-breaking cold to heavy rain, retarding crop development. Last winter's freeze went all the way to Mexico, virtually destroying any chance for stonefruit harvests when the blossoms were frozen. Here in Oregon, local crops are weeks behind schedule because we only saw our first 60-degree day last weekend.

Shortages in other markets may also be affecting your locally grown produce, but I would venture to say that crop yields are not where they should be, and the remaining harvestable product is that much scarcer.

Additionally, co-ops rarely have the buying power of the big chains or even smaller local grocery companies. 20 pallets of melon might be sold at 10 cents a pound, but if you can only afford to bring in a single pallet, you can expect to pay more like 25 cents a pound (just an example, not actual prices).

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
 
9. Makes sense, but...

That does not explain the exorbitant prices for identical products found in the chain grocery. It all just seems like a rip-off to me.

Jackpine Radical  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
10. Again, volume deals allow the big guys to dictate prices.

druidity33  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
20. identical products? really?

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
 
22. Really.

Organic beef, same farm, same packaging, $3/lb MORE at the co-op.

Boxed couscous, same brand, identical size, identical packaging, $1.75 MORE at the co-op.

Seriously, there are hundreds of identical items, they simply cost much more at the co-op.

druidity33  (1000+ posts)        Wed Apr-20-11 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
 
26. It's not like that at my co-op...

If they can't negotiate reasonable prices, they get a different product. Mostly, it's companies that refuse to sell to the Co-op at the same price they sell to conglomerates. There are some things that are dupes, but the prices are comparable. I mostly just buy the bulk stuff anyway (that's what's really cheaper and why i go there).

When i worked at a Camera store, we dropped Fuji and Sony because they kept selling the same models we had to Walmart for a much cheaper price... we just stopped carrying their products. Maybe you should try talking to one of the Companies you want to purchase from and ASK THEM why it costs more at the co-op?

housewolf  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message

11. Why don't you ask your co-op's managment

I imagine they could tell you

FSogol  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
 
12. Economics 101: Prices are set by what people will pay, not by what it costs to produce.

[Freeper]

BanzaiBonnie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. One factor may be that organic feed is more expensive

Your co-op may be paying a living wage to those who work there. Those who are working in the fields may be paid fairly.

Workers in other countries may be paid slave wages. Would you steal from another person? No? When people are paid in slave wages, isn't that a theft of their life energy?

And by slave wages, I mean wages that are not enough to take care of basic needs. Wages that keep them coming back, but not enough to put adequate food on the table.

But that's not up to you? Right? You're not buying those products.

Yet theft of people's life energy by high taxes is just fine.

[franksolich]

Yet theft of people's life energy by high taxes is just fine.

Good point, sir.

[GOBUCKS]

The exorbitant price of anything marketed as "organic" is mainly due to an analysis of the target customer. They know if it says "organic", they will be selling to half-wit moonbats, who will be very unlikely to know they're being fleeced for undersized, misshapen, bug-eaten produce, and stringy, tough meat. For the supplier, it's a win-win deal. He's able to unload inferior merchandise for a premium price. For the DUmbass organic customer, who cares?

[franksolich]

The exorbitant price of anything marketed as "organic" is mainly due to an analysis of the target customer. They know if it says "organic", they will be selling to half-wit moonbats, who will be very unlikely to know they're being fleeced for undersized, misshapen, bug-eaten produce, and stringy, tough meat. For the supplier, it's a win-win deal. He's able to unload inferior merchandise for a premium price. For the DUmbass organic customer, who cares?

This was in the health forum on Skins's island, and I'm really surprised all the cooking and baking primitives haven't seen it.

I dunno.  Someone--I think it was you, sir--once said that as along as food's eaten in moderation, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference its source.  Which of course is true, very true.

Around here, up on the roof of Nebraska, on the eastern slope of the Sandhills--as I'm sure they do down in Tennessee--about the beginning of summer, farmer's stands pop up all over the place.  Because farmers are busy people, such stands are unattended; one just takes what one wishes, and tosses the money into a coffee-can on a table.

I guess this is the closest we've come, to natural foods and food cooperatives.

Nobody around here, even the chain grocery stores, uses the term "organic," because of the word's unfortunate association with hippies.....and overpriced goods.  They use other terms ("naturally grown" [?]), but never never never "organic," because the word conjures up images of the most worthless generation in American history.

It's always killed me (with laughter) when the New England primitives yimmer-yammer about their "farmer's markets" (quotation marks intentional), where they pick up corn-on-the-cob or watermelons.....in January. 

Like January's "in season" for such things in New England.

What the primitives don't know is that the corn-on-the-cob and watermelons sold at "farmer's markets" in Boston or Lowell or Hartford or Stowe or Burlington or Keene in January is grown on evil corporate-owned farms down in Florida. 

[DumbAss Tanker]

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:35 PM
Original message
 
Why are the prices at my Co-op so much higher?

The produce, all allegedly grown locally (within 50 miles) and organic, costs 30-50% more than the local chain grocery where the produce comes from all over (especially mexico and south america this time of year).
The organic meat is nearly TWICE what the exact same brand costs in the chain grocery. In fact, one can find identical items on the shelves of the co-op and on the shelves of the chain grocery, and in every single instance, the co-op is much more expensive.

Why?

Obviously the land-owning Kulak bastards are conspiring to wreck Comrade Michelle's 4-Year Plan to benefit the Workers and Peasants, and they need to be rigorously suppressed and the farms collectivized!

 

[JohnnyReb]

They don't want the organic farmer to pay slave wages but expect the farmer to slave for less than nothing.

Dumbasses know nothing about farming and the cost of raising food the way they want it done.

WTH are they bitching for anyway. They shop with foodstamps. That makes it all free to them anyway.

Who breathes for these people?

[zeitgeist]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x103897

Oh my.

Thought this looked familiar, I ran across this the other day and wondered where the original thread was. I offer this for your edification and enjoyment     :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x598861

TygrBright (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:19 PM
Original message
Good question: Why ARE the prices at your Co-op so much higher?
 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Short answer: It's not that the prices at your Co-op are so much higher, it's that the prices at your average chain supermarket are so much lower. In fact, they are artificially low. Here's how:

First, most of the minimally-processed items (produce, meat, eggs, milk, etc.) at your supermarket are produced at giant food factories that no longer even remotely resemble farms, but are eligible for large "farm subsidies" that keep their costs of production artificially low. They also (generally) pay their laborers starvation wages, and use large amounts of cheap chemicals, hormones, artificial enzymes and GMOs to inflate yield while ensuring that the actual produce will have very little nutritional value. In addition, the minimal processing that they must do (washing and packing for vegetables, pasteurizing and packaging for dairy, slaughtering and packing for meat) is done at gigantic industrial facilities that use machines designed to produce the appearance of food while further degrading its actual nutritional value. These facilities are approved by the corporate-controlled USDA and because they process vast amounts of product, they achieve extreme economies of scale, thereby further decreasing the cost of the final item that appears in your supermarket.

By contrast, the food grown by small local producers that you Co-op may buy from is almost never eligible for "farm subsidies," and requires skilled labor and not-cheap organic soil amendments, fertilizers, and pest and disease control to produce. They are frequently processed on-site or at small local and regional facilities that take time and care to ensure that the product's nutritional value and taste are retained and that the appearance is not damaged to the point where it will be unsalable. These are costly. And, since they are generally not owned by the corporations who control the USDA, they are frequently subject to harassment and required to make costly alterations and 'upgrades' to their facilities and equipment designed to run them out of business and thus drive more business to the corporate-controlled megafacilities.

Second, most of the moderately-processed items (cheese, grains, cereals and flours, frozen and canned items, etc.) are not produced using massive industrial facilities, additives, chemical and enzyme treatments, and packaging equipment and techniques that maximize shelf life and result in pristine appearance and artificially-"enhanced" flavores while robbing the items of most of their nutritional value. Since this process can be (again) done on a scale that produces huge economies of scale, as well as "stretching" the actual raw ingredients with cheap additives like injected air, corn syrup, etc., it results in a less-expensive product at your local supermarket. This is not true of most of the items at your Co-op, which are generally produced in smaller facilities and usually produced using methods designed to preserve the actual nutritional qualities of the food rather than maximize shelf life and artificial flavor.

Third, most of the processed items (packaged ready-to-eat items) at your supermarket have very little food in them. They are mostly comprised of substances derived from corn and soy using advanced deconstruction technologies that render the original food molecules into "components" that can be reconstituted into food-like substances that can be manipulated with artificial flavoring, coloring, etc. into attractive pseudo-food with virtually unlimited shelf-life and microscopic production costs. This, again, is not true of most of your Co-op items, which are usual comprised mostly of actual, undeconstructed ingredients--which makes them more expensive to produce and often results in a shorter shelf life. Shorter shelf life means that they must "turn over" more quickly, and therefore are generally produced, ordered, and shipped in smaller quantities, and re-stocked more frequently. Not only does this minimize any economies of scale, it increases cost.

Finally, the network of industrial processing facilities, warehouses, distribution centers, and transportation that serves commercial supermarkets is vast, corporate controlled, pays its labor shit wages and treats them like serfs. This means that they can actually make substantial profit while keeping costs very low. Needless to say, this network does not serve your Co-op.

Hopefully this helps explain why you pay something closer to the actual cost of your (real) food at the Co-op, than the artificially-low, subsidized corporate profit-maximizing prices for the industrially-produced foodlike substances at your local chain supermarket.

helpfully,
Bright
 

There are a limited number of typical dummy replies.

[Randy]

cleanhippie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 12:35 PM
Original message
 
Why are the prices at my Co-op so much higher?

The produce, all allegedly grown locally (within 50 miles) and organic, costs 30-50% more than the local chain grocery where the produce comes from all over (especially mexico and south america this time of year).
The organic meat is nearly TWICE what the exact same brand costs in the chain grocery. In fact, one can find identical items on the shelves of the co-op and on the shelves of the chain grocery, and in every single instance, the co-op is much more expensive.

Why?

The answer is simple, so simple you're to DUmb to see it. Ready for it?

It's all more expensive because you're a moron and they're ****ing you out of your money.

There's an old saying that covers exactly this and backs me up 1000%.

A fool and his money are soon parted. /lesson

See? I just learned ya sumthin an I ain't no illegitimate skool teachur neither. 

[diesel driver]

I like to find just one DUmbass liberal that DOESN'T believe in the "corporate-government-military-whatthe****-complex conspiracy".

They sound like even bigger DUmbasses reciting this drivel, like this entire screed by DUmmie TygrNottodamnedbright.  He hasn't the slightest clue what actually goes on, even less of a clue of what he actually said, and no chance in hell of learning anything close to the truth about it.

Just too damned much stupid.  If you shot this DUmbass in the head, it would take at least 3 shots before you'd hit anything vital inside their empty skulls.

[Karin]

FSogol  (1000+ posts)        Tue Apr-19-11 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Economics 101: Prices are set by what people will pay, not by what it costs to produce.

Whoa!!!!  That's not what Karl Marx said!  Blasphemer.  Heretic. 

BanzaiBonnie  (1000+ posts)      Tue Apr-19-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
 
17. Why are you so afriad of facing the discomfort of feelings this brings up for you?

Banzai is the most passive-aggressive bitch I've seen in a long time.  Don't you just want to smack her? 

This whole conversation reminds me of Vesta and my argument about how schools can't sit and handcraft individual homemade hamburger buns day in and day out, at taxpayer expense.  But never mind.  Time for lunch. 

[LC EFA]

The organic food costs more for a couple of reasons.

Firstly - cost of production is much higher, including the costs to become a "certified" organic producer ; because the cost of raw materials is higher and the amount of labour is higher.

Second the return per unit must be higher because the units produced is lower, due to smaller scale and larger attrition rate of products caused by not using modern herbicides, pesticides and fertilisers.

Lastly if you label something "organic" , much like if you label something "tactical" , or "extreme" you can charge a premium to people who think said label means something.

[GOBUCKS]

The organic food costs more for a couple of reasons.

Firstly - cost of production is much higher, including the costs to become a "certified" organic producer ; because the cost of raw materials is higher and the amount of labour is higher.

Second the return per unit must be higher because the units produced is lower, due to smaller scale and larger attrition rate of products caused by not using modern herbicides, pesticides and fertilisers.

Lastly if you label something "organic" , much like if you label something "tactical" , or "extreme" you can charge a premium to people who think said label means something.

I think you got the 3 main reasons. Their contributions are 10%, 10%, and 80%, respectively.