Author Topic: Should same-sex marriage be legal?  (Read 28151 times)

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Offline rubliw

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #200 on: March 28, 2011, 12:40:13 PM »
All of this is really moot - as the many and varied conditions regarding mixed gender attest, and even if one is not recognizing the "wrong brain in body" thing, Thor's claim that God always creates people of a single distinct gender is completely falsified (for at least ONE reason, but probably two).  Dead as a doornail.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 12:49:09 PM by rubliw »

Offline Wineslob

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #201 on: March 28, 2011, 02:16:00 PM »
Quote
Should same-sex marriage be legal?



No. They can have Civil Unions. This whole tactic by the LBGTRBWMOPL or whatever the f*ck they want to call themselves is just a way to destroy anything good left in this country.

You must ask the question: WHY is it so important to ruin the purpose of marriage?
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #202 on: March 28, 2011, 02:23:21 PM »
Must have some more Harmony Central Political Forum sappers here.

Let's see, gay marriage? Check.
Next, you'll have whine-athons about Christianity and how awful it is for gays.

My opinion - as a states' rights conservative:

1. The legal definition of 'marriage'is solely within the jurisdiction of sovereign states.
2. The Federal Government has no constitutional authority to define marriage for all fifty states.

If Vermont wants gay marriage, fine. If Louisiana doesn't want it - fine.
The tricky question would be if Louisiana can deny full faith and credit to
Vermont marriages?

A states' rights view says the other states can deny Vermont marriages legal validity within their own jurisdiction.


Wilbur was confused by my post waaaay back on page 8, so I'll just capture what gurn said in response -- maybe he'll be a little less confused.

I'm just gonna let the "n" word/tranny issue die, in response to MP Sarge. No sense re-hashing that shit all over again.
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #203 on: March 28, 2011, 02:26:09 PM »
Reading the discussions in this thread have been interesting, however not particularly enlightening......

Many old arguments have been recycled for the umpteenth time.  The essence of the OP was "should same-sex marriage be legal........my answer would be a resounding NO.  No, so long as it is specifically called "marriage", which has for thousands of years been defined by societies worldwide as a relationship between two humans of opposite gender.

I have absolutely no objections to homosexual "civil unions" which carry all the same privileges as "marriage" in the common usage........religion aside, "marriage" must be defended as an institution that generally benefits a society, and provides stable environments for children and young adults.

Specifically regarding homosexuals (I refuse to refer to them as "gay"......I've known many over the years, and frankly there is little gay about them in the literal sense), I'll  try to place a little different spin on this.  As close to a "scientific" analysis as I can muster, up until the DSM IV (and the advent of "political correctness"), the prevailing opinion of professionals in the behavioral sciences was that homosexuality (in all of its gender or sexual preference variations) was a mental illness.  One can argue whether it is genetic, or acculturated (or a mixture of both), but until the DSM IV was published, the theory was close, if not spot on.  The point essentially is that until "PC" set in to the behavioral sciences, homosexuality was abnormal behavior.

The question now becomes whether or not abnormal behavior should be enshrined in law, or society in general.........I will allways maintain that this is a bad idea, the continued "blurring of lines" between what is normal and abnormal will erode the foundations of an ordered society, and result in unintended consequences......generally negative ones.

When I view homosexuality through the logic of a scientist, I can discern absolutely NO distinction socially between a practicing (male) homosexual couple, and a priest (or pastor) molesting alter boys.......the only difference is the age of the participants.  One will be "tolerated", and the other will land the adult in prison.........but fundamentally they are no different, both are aberrant behavior.......and always will be.

Societies always seek to create order out of chaos.  The inclusion of vast numbers of variant aberrations erodes the order, and ultimately destroys the "society", not unlike aberrant cancer cells will ultimately destroy the host.  Therefore, from purely a logical position, granting "normalcy" to homosexuals is a contradiction in terms, and must be resisted.

Does this mean that I advocate violent repression or isolation of homosexuals....no, does that mean that I think that homosexuals should be denied jobs, benefits (with some caveats) visitation rights, the means to cohabitate, the ability to transfer their wealth or possessions to their partners upon death..........no I don't, no more than I would for some individual with Down's Syndrome.

What I DO believe is that homosexuals should not be considered "normal", and since words have meaning, "marriage" is confined to the societal limits of normalcy, and must stay there.  I could care less what anyone does in the privacy of their own homes, so long as it stays there.  I don't want to be forced to attempt an explanation to my small grandchildren public displays of aberrant behavior.......nor will I tolerate them being exposed to it as a part of the curricula of their primary education.

In an ordered society, lines must be drawn, and limits established.......I've established mine.  I grow weary of a tiny fraction of our society constantly clamoring for "acceptance", using the legislatures, courts, and the media. societies, not unlike the water of a lake will seek their own level........that happened for most humans a number of centuries ago.

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Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #204 on: March 28, 2011, 02:27:36 PM »
But you made a point of citing this:

you pointed out that the word "trannie" can be considered offensive yet you said in another post that you have no problem referring to homosexual's using words they'd deem offensive. Why is it that you made a point of citing 1 word as offensive yet have no problem using words that others might find offensive? Either certain words are offensive or they're not. It's hypocrisy for the black community to take offense to the N word yet turn around and use that word themselves. Unless I read it wrong, you took umbrage at the word "trannie" yet have no problem using words that homosexuals would find offensive.


MP Sarge was simply making a point he's been dying to make for some time now -- just like this self-expose about his transsexualism in a thread that is supposed to be about so-called same-sex marriage.
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Offline MP_Sarge

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #205 on: March 28, 2011, 02:49:07 PM »
So you're calling me a liar.

Good to know.

As far as how transsexuality even came up in the first place, it's relevant to the discussion, because if you're limiting marriage to one man and one woman, then at some point we should probably figure out who transsexuals and people with intersex disorders are and aren't/should and shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Strangely, no one seems to want to answer those questions.

So, I'll ask it yet again.

Who is someone with and intersex disorder allowed to marry?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:52:47 PM by MP_Sarge »
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #206 on: March 28, 2011, 02:53:38 PM »
So you're calling me a liar.

Good to know.

As far as how transsexuality even came up in the first place, it's relevant to the discussion, because if you're limited marriage to one man and one woman, then at some point we should probably figure out who transsexuals and people with intersex disorders are and aren't allowed to marry.

Strangely, no one seems to want to answer those questions.

No, I'm not calling you a liar. If I wanted to call you a liar, I'd say, "You're a liar."

I don't believe transsexuality is relevant to the issue, and I believe you've been looking for an opportunity -- no matter how slight -- to state your case.

Hey, I'm guilty all the time of hi-jacking threads -- so it's no big deal to me. Go right ahead.

The question is -- should same-sex marriage be legal?

My answer is a resounding NO. Anything after that is gravy.  :-)
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Offline MP_Sarge

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #207 on: March 28, 2011, 03:01:50 PM »
Well, if I'm stating my motives, and you're saying they're something different, I can't help but feel you're calling me a liar.

Okay, you oppose same sex marriage.
That's your right.

Now tell me, what *is* same sex marriage?

If someone with XXY chromosomes marries someone with XX chromosomes, is that same sex marriage?
What if they marry someone with XY chromosomes; is *that* same sex marriage?
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #208 on: March 28, 2011, 03:04:37 PM »
Well, if I'm stating my motives, and you're saying they're something different, I can't help but feel you're calling me a liar.

Okay, you oppose same sex marriage.
That's your right.

Now tell me, what *is* same sex marriage?

If someone with XXY chromosomes marries someone with XX chromosomes, is that same sex marriage?
What if they marry someone with XY chromosomes; is *that* same sex marriage?

You know, I did read the entire thread from where I left off last Friday (?) and I read your entire dissertation on your situation, your testing, your testosterone, and your decision. Are you reaaaaally trying to write all of that stuff all over again???



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Offline MP_Sarge

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #209 on: March 28, 2011, 03:08:50 PM »
No, that stuff came up because I was *asked* about it by other posters.

I'm asking a question completely separate from that, that doesn't apply to me at all. 

If you're going to say you don't approve of same-sex marriage, you don't think it's relevant to define what "same sex" means?
I'm asking the question because as of yet, no one has answered it. 
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Offline Doc

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #210 on: March 28, 2011, 03:16:25 PM »
No, that stuff came up because I was *asked* about it by other posters.

I'm asking a question completely separate from that, that doesn't apply to me at all.  

If you're going to say you don't approve of same-sex marriage, you don't think it's relevant to define what "same sex" means?
I'm asking the question because as of yet, no one has answered it.  

Well....not to butt in between you and Euph.....I'll answer it:

Marriage = A legally recognized relationship between an individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) penis, with a second individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) vagina.......

Now, if the wonders of modern medical science can place you firmly in either category......go for it, I'm on your side.

Everything else would be regarded as a "civil union"......

doc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 03:23:21 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #211 on: March 28, 2011, 03:17:15 PM »
No, that stuff came up because I was *asked* about it by other posters.

I'm asking a question completely separate from that, that doesn't apply to me at all. 

If you're going to say you don't approve of same-sex marriage, you don't think it's relevant to define what "same sex" means?
I'm asking the question because as of yet, no one has answered it. 

Maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe because the question can't be answered.

Sorry -- I'm fresh out of answers. You appear to be a "special case", so if you're trying to tell me that as a transsexual (without the surgery) that you're homo and have a relationship with some guy, ultimately in the end -- physiologically speaking, of course, it's male/female thing.

Or is it?

Beats the shit out of me.

But if you're looking for a "marriage" with said guy, why not just live together? What is it about marriage that's got you all tied up in knots? (no pun intended).
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #212 on: March 28, 2011, 03:20:18 PM »
Well....not to butt in between you and Euph.....I'll answer it:

Marriage = A legally recognized relationship between an individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) penis, with a second individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) vagina.......

Everything else would be regarded as a "civil union"......

doc

doc, this is where MP Sarge pulls out his "I was a female, but the data tell me I'm male" and then proceed to enlighten us with all manner of biblical-based philosophy about how the Jews knew all about varying degrees of the opposite sex in each of us.

So the obvious end game is the "mental" aspect of gender/sex and all that that's cracked up to be.

Again, no pun intended.  :-)
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Offline Thor

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #213 on: March 28, 2011, 03:33:07 PM »
Once we allow same sex marriage, where does the "marriage" thing end??  Does it end with multiple wives or husbands?? Does it end with a 40 year old man marrying an Eight year old girl?? Or do we even carry it as far as some countries have and allow bestiality to enter the equation??

I'm right along with TV DOC in ALL aspects of his post on the last page. For a couple of Millenia or more, marriage has been between a MAN & a WOMAN.

Ohhh, and MP Sarge, you're free to practice YOUR faith as you see fit or as it allows. Hell, if you want to go worship the trees, go for it. I'll place what my BIL says over some internet "Rabbi" that's bastardizing their religion. At least I know about him. And I'll take HIS credentials over anything you can throw at me. That's one bad thing about the internet.[sarc] Just because it's on the internet must mean that it's true[/sarc]  ::) One can find enough "shit" to back up just about any argument. However, one must consider whether or not that "shit" is legitimate.
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #214 on: March 28, 2011, 03:51:42 PM »
doc, this is where MP Sarge pulls out his "I was a female, but the data tell me I'm male" and then proceed to enlighten us with all manner of biblical-based philosophy about how the Jews knew all about varying degrees of the opposite sex in each of us.

So the obvious end game is the "mental" aspect of gender/sex and all that that's cracked up to be.

Again, no pun intended.  :-)

Why am I reminded of "Undergroundpanther" over at DU?!?

You know, some mornings I wake up and feel mentally like an Eagle.......still doesn't mean that I can fly......

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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #215 on: March 28, 2011, 03:58:49 PM »
Why am I reminded of "Undergroundpanther" over at DU?!?

You know, some mornings I wake up and feel mentally like an Eagle.......still doesn't mean that I can fly......

doc

There's only one way to find out. Next time you feel that way, go up to the ninth floor, spread your wings and dive off.

I wouldn't dare say that to a bunch of DUmmie. :-) All over town all you would hear would be thump! thump! thump! Like eggs being thrown against a brick wall.
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Offline seahorse513

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #216 on: March 28, 2011, 05:04:10 PM »
I see it this way. Marriage is between a man and a woman, both having their original working reproductive systems, whether to procreate or personal enjoyment. If  two people , two females or two males want to live together, that is fine, it is a civil union..
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #217 on: March 28, 2011, 05:59:08 PM »
...

Marriage = A legally recognized relationship between an individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) penis, with a second individual with a fully-functioning (in all regards) vagina.......

...


If you're going to define it so strictly - ie "fully-functioning in all regards" - then that's likely to nullify numerous existing "marriages" between men and women.  For example where the male has erectile dysfunction or where either partner is infertile or otherwise impaired and thus no longer "fully-functioning in all regards".
 

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #218 on: March 28, 2011, 08:24:10 PM »
If you're going to define it so strictly - ie "fully-functioning in all regards" - then that's likely to nullify numerous existing "marriages" between men and women.  For example where the male has erectile dysfunction or where either partner is infertile or otherwise impaired and thus no longer "fully-functioning in all regards".
 

Perhaps you're correct that my criteria is too narrow......however, I'd argue that technically female infertility is dependent on organs other than a vagina, and erectile dysfunction is imminently treatable......that said, "seahorse913" offered a less stringent definition, which is fine by me.....

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Offline seahorse513

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #219 on: March 28, 2011, 08:30:24 PM »
If you're going to define it so strictly - ie "fully-functioning in all regards" - then that's likely to nullify numerous existing "marriages" between men and women.  For example where the male has erectile dysfunction or where either partner is infertile or otherwise impaired and thus no longer "fully-functioning in all regards".
 

this is true..........because alot of elderly people marry for companionship, and this is where homosexuals have their arguments.
I as a woman , may find another woman attractive, I would not want to marry her, because, I find the physical chemistry would not be there for me. There are certain characteristics that men have that women do not have, that I find appealing
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #220 on: March 28, 2011, 09:16:55 PM »
Once we allow same sex marriage, where does the "marriage" thing end??  Does it end with multiple wives or husbands?? Does it end with a 40 year old man marrying an Eight year old girl?? Or do we even carry it as far as some countries have and allow bestiality to enter the equation??

Thank You! that's been 1 of my arguments all along, if you start redefining marriage then heck, why can't 3, 4, 5 or more people marry? who are we to say that 5 people can't love each other? it's a slippery slope.
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Offline MP_Sarge

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #221 on: March 28, 2011, 10:03:12 PM »
Oy, even understanding where the miscommunication came from, it's frustrating. :banghead:

I'm not asking about me, or transsexuals in general.

I'm asking about people who are born with physical or chromosomal disorders that render them not definitively male or female.  Babies who are born with malformed genitalia, for example.  People with chromosomal mosaicism or Klinefelters.  Not people who made a choice to blur their sex and gender, but people who were born that way.

Are we saying that they should only be allowed civil unions, and not marriages?
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Offline Ballygrl

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #222 on: March 28, 2011, 10:15:16 PM »
Oy, even understanding where the miscommunication came from, it's frustrating. :banghead:

I'm not asking about me, or transsexuals in general.

I'm asking about people who are born with physical or chromosomal disorders that render them not definitively male or female.  Babies who are born with malformed genitalia, for example.  People with chromosomal mosaicism or Klinefelters.  Not people who made a choice to blur their sex and gender, but people who were born that way.

Are we saying that they should only be allowed civil unions, and not marriages?

There are approximately 4.2 million births in the US every year, odds of having a baby who is a hermaphrodite or intersex are approximately 1 in 25,000, we're talking approximately 168 hermaphrodite or intersex babies per year or 1/200th of 1%, so are you advocating a change in marriage laws because of that small %age?
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Offline Thor

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #223 on: March 28, 2011, 11:03:29 PM »
There are approximately 4.2 million births in the US every year, odds of having a baby who is a hermaphrodite or intersex are approximately 1 in 25,000, we're talking approximately 168 hermaphrodite or intersex babies per year or 1/200th of 1%, so are you advocating a change in marriage laws because of that small %age?

Of course. The aberrations must have equality, don't you know?? ::)
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Offline MP_Sarge

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Re: Should same-sex marriage be legal?
« Reply #224 on: March 28, 2011, 11:33:21 PM »
Seriously Thor?  Aberrations?  Were talking about infants who were born with health issues.  Aberrations?  That's what the pro-death crowd would call them, right before they aborted the child.

Ballygrl, I'm not advocating anything. 
My personal opinion is that marriage is a religious institution which the government has no business involving itself in.  It should be left up to the churches.
If government is going to involve itself, then it should be left to the state, and not the federal, level.
Y'know, small government, religious freedom and state's rights?  Sound familiar?

I'm asking questions that are relevant to the discussion.  A legal ruling regarding an intersex person marrying could create legal loopholes for other forms of marriage, unless sex is clearly defined.
One man, and one woman, doesn't clearly define sex, since we know medically that not all people are definitively male or female.

If you want to limit marriage only to people who are distinctly, biologically male marrying someone who is distinctly biologically female (XY and XX, respectively), then it is important to say so and avoid legal loopholes which would weaken those limits.

The whole reason the debate over same-sex marriage exists is because so many documents don't specify one man-one woman.  Why not learn from history and make sure the documents are specific enough that there needn't be future debate?
Nunquam Honorandum Nisi Merito
 Transgender American Veterans