Hugo Chavez Decries Capitalism....On Mars

[dandi]

rayofreason (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Tue Mar-22-11 06:27 PM
Original message
Hugo Chavez Decries Capitalism....On Mars
   
Source: Wall Street Journal

By EZEQUIEL MINAYA

CARACAS—Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who routinely blames capitalism for many of this world's troubles, pointed elsewhere in the galaxy for his latest critique, saying Tuesday that the economic system may have destroyed life on Mars.

"I have always said, have heard, that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars," the firebrand socialist said on Venezuela's state television. After pausing a moment, he added, "But perhaps capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived, and finished that planet."

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704461304...


I googled "Chavez news" to see if he had any new pro-Kdaffy comments and found this gem! The Bolivarian Bozo never ceases to amuse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x719373

There's the usual back-and-forth between the pro- and anti-Hugo factions, but the main reason I brought this one over was because of this exchange:

David__77 (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Tue Mar-22-11 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well imperialism has wiped out millions on earth, so he makes a good point.
   
I like Chavez's informal speaking style. Much better than US teleprompter nonsense.

rayofreason (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Tue Mar-22-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. And socialism has murdered about 100,000,000
   
in just one century!

I'll happily compare the record of socialist regimes like Democratic Kampuchea, Mao's PRC during the Great Leap Forward, Stalin's USSR during the collectivization, etc., against the record of the democratic capitalist states, that have delivered the greatest increase in knowledge, culture, wealth, health, and security to the greatest number of humans than any system of economy or governance in the history of humanity. Name one significant innovation created and nurtured exclusively in socialist economies that has gone on to improve the lives of billions around the world. You can't because there isn't any.

The main contribution of these socialist states to humanity has been injustice, the crushing of human liberty and freedom of expression, economic stagnation and massive poverty, and state-sponsored murder on the greatest scale in history (OK - Genghis Khan can join that part of the club). And what is the worst hellhole of a country in the world today? The DPRK, without question. A socialist paradise, at least for the ruling party.

Chavez is an idiot first and foremost for putting his childlike faith in a discredited religion that unlike all others promised paradise in the here, not the hereafter. And every time the Marxist creed has been put to the test, it has failed miserably.

white_wolf (662 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Tue Mar-22-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Those were not Socialist countries.
   
They were Stalinist states under the name of Socialism. So quit spreading that right-wing myth that any of those states you listed were socialist. It is nothing more than lie! Even Leon Trotsky recognized this when he wrote the Revolution Betrayed. As for capitalism? Do you really want to go there? I'll start off easy. 45,000 die in this country every year as a result of a capitalist health care system. How many have dies as a result of capitalist imperialism? How about the Slave Trade? Capitalism is the most violent and destructive system ever devised.

rayofreason (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Tue Mar-22-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I appreciate your willingness to debate..
   
Edited on Tue Mar-22-11 10:41 PM by rayofreason
... the point, but your argument is flawed on many levels, including internal inconsistency.

1. The standard response of the true believer is to claim that all of these socialist states were not socialist. However, all of the political movements that seized power and implemented the atrocities like the Cambodian democide had Marxist-Leninist origins, and they claimed they were socialist. At the time that they took power, socialists around the world lauded them and recognized them as socialist. Only later did disillusionment set in. And remember that Trotsky was happy with Lenin, and Lenin was a bloody bastard as well. Had he lived longer, he likely would have been just as bad as Stalin. So to claim later that all these socialist states, self-proclaimed, ruled by parties and leaders who came from the socialist movement, and recognized as socialist at the time by many other socialists around the world were not really socialist is not a credible argument.

2. So what if we do accept your argument that all these countries were not socialist. Has there ever been a socialist state? Then the conclusion is that whenever a political party claiming to be socialist seizes and holds power and attempts to implement socialism, it always devolves into tyranny and failure. And since there is not a single state claiming to be organized on Marxist lines that has been anything other than an economic failure with an authoritarian, dictatorial government, then one must conclude that attempts to create socialist states always produce disaster.

3. So if there never has been a socialist state, and capitalism reigns supreme, then the entire wealth of the modern world is the result of the triumph of capitalism over the past 250 years. You mention "45,000 die in this country every year as a result of a capitalist health care system." Compared to what? The 17th century, when average life expectancy in rich countries was 40? Presumably this unverifiable figure of 45,000/yr comes from some calculation of the number of people who get substandard health care in the US. Well, how about the tens of million who don't die each year? That is the result of capitalism. Whatever your complaints about access to health care, the fact remains that an average individual surviving to age 2 in a preindustrial, pre-capitalist society would have a life expectancy 1/2 what it would be if born in the US today. And remember that infant mortality in such societies is not far from 50% (those who survived past age 2), and those surviving only lived to 40, on average. So the capitalist health care system and in fact the entire capitalist economy is responsible for saving millions of lives each year in the US alone.

What is more, the greatest improvement in the human condition in the past 50 years has been among the poorest humans. India, with 1 billion, is a case in point. I have traveled there often and the changes in the past decade have been dramatic. Far more people are better fed, clothed, educated, and housed than ever. Yes, grinding poverty still exists (the poverty that every society had as the normal condition for most people before capitalism), but there is less and less of it. The same for China, which has abandoned most socialist economic policies while retaining the corruption and authoritarian system that all socialist regimes (in name or fact) generate. In Africa, there has been huge progress, with of course backsliding examples like Zimbabwe (which only goes to show how bad leadership can screw things up). And a huge hero in all of the progress was Norman Borlaug, whose efforts may have saved a billion people. Yet another contribution of the capitalist system that enabled someone like Borlaug to do what he did.

4. Slave trade? It is still going on, you know. Not very politically correct to mention it because the biggest component is Arabs doing the slaving, just like they did for centuries. And you must realize that slavery has been the human condition from the neolithic revolution on, without capitalism. The ancient world relied very heavily on slaves. Until 1865 most Russians were effectively slaves, serfs tied to the land who had to work for the master with no choice in the matter. So if slavery was an open and accepted practice across all civilizations for thousands of years, what changed? Capitalist states, led by Great Britain, the Ur-capitalist-industrial state, ended the open slave trade, driving it to a level where you cannot be "civilized" and advocate slavery. So a horrible practice that was as old as settled life was ended by capitalism. Yet another progressive victory.

By any measure, life for humans across the globe has improved over the past 250 years, and for people in the democratic capitalist states the change has been the most spectacular. Billions now enjoy comfort and convenience that would have been beyond the reach of the most powerful ancient kings. Humans have been largely freed from hunger and want by capitalism, the world-dominant economic system during this 250 years. Meanwhile, the record of every state claiming to implement a Marxist agenda to create socialism has been a record of horror. And given the opportunity to choose, the people in those countries have thrown off their oppressors, embraced market economies, and joined the capitalist system.

The evidence is incontrovertible. This rich modern world was made by capitalism, and the rich modern world is far preferable to everything that came before it. Capitalism is and continues to be the greatest boon to humanity in its history.

Whoa!

What the hell is rayofreason doing at DU?

[Carl]

He/she won`t be there much longer.

[JohnnyReb]

Whoa!

What the hell is rayofreason doing at DU?

Better have a pre-wake party for rayofreason...shouldn't the doomed be able to enjoy it too?

[Karin]

Still there.  Thanks for getting it, Dandi! 

Zebedeo (1000+ posts)      Wed Mar-23-11 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. +1
 Awesome post.

I agree,  it was awesome, and very well-written. 

That was the only reaction to RayofReason.  The thread immediately goes back to whether or not Yugo was telling a joke or not.   As if RofR had never said it at all. 

[Ralph Wiggum]

I don't know why this is such a big deal, the DUmmies decry capitalism ANYWHERE on a hourly & daily basis.

[Rebel]

I'd kill to have rayofreason's debating skills. ....not that it's hard to debate a DUmbass.

[Mike220]

Whoa!

What the hell is rayofreason doing at DU?

I don't know. I do know that this is the first time ever that I've read something a DUmmy wrote and agreed with.

That was quite impressive.

[thundley4]

MNBrewer (1000+ posts)           Tue Mar-22-11 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is Chavez the next L. Ron Hubbard?

rayofreason (1000+ posts)           Wed Mar-23-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. The Red Planet. Look what it got them. n/t

[Reality vs DU]

Freshly schooled by rayofreason, white_wolf gives a weak response in an effort to save face.

white_wolf (667 posts)           Wed Mar-23-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Sorry It took me so long to get back to you. I had a tes to study for.
   
Anyway I'm going to try and address a few of your points, but keep in mind I'm still studying Socialism and Marxism.

1. First of all you mention Cambodia and the Kmher Rouge. They were not a socialist movement for a few reasons. First of all the rejected the Marxist concept of the proletariat being the workers and instead claimed that farmers and peasants were the true proletariat. Also there have been rumors that Pol Pot was backed by the CIA because he was against the Viet Cong and it was in fact the Viet Cong that overthrow him and liberated Cambodia from his rule. Also he wanted to throw off French Imperialism and return Cambodia to its ancient glory, that is reactionary motive and is rooted in nationalism which is counter to Socialism, which is an international movement. As to your point on Lenin, you have to remember he was not a dictator. He was in fact voted down several times, especially on the issue of ending Russian involvement in WWI.

2. As to your other points, I would argue that the wealth generated by capitalism is mostly pocketed by the elites with a small bit thrown to the working classes to keep them from open rebellion. The capitalists would love us to go back to the days and polices of the industrial revolution where everyone was pretty much a wage-slave, but they can't because they know if they did that there would be open socialist revolutions. On a final note all the great reforms have been won by Socialist movements pressuring their governments. If the socialists/communists had not put so much pressure on the U.S. goverment and advocated for a socialist revolution then the New Deal, which took many of its ideas from the Socialist Party platform, would never have passed.

DUmmy white_wolf either had a nadin moment there, or admits he/she/it is too young and DUmb to debate rayofreason.

[true_blood]

Just let me take another hit to make this all so believable. /DU MODE